9/11 Video (Loose Change)

[rakkasan]

^^ those buildings where supposed to be able to take missile attacks, planes doing 500+ MPH,

No offense Deadcell, but horseshit. I'm a commercial construction/structural designer & I can say that not once has there ever been a model made that factors in aircraft collisions. Live loads, dead loads, wind loads, shear, ect are what structural designs intend to exceed, not aircraft collisions.

 

[rakkasan]

Umm ok. I have no problem with anyone, or anybody's thoughts.

Here are my thoughts

Your President is a War Criminal and should face the same treatment as overseas dictators.

Thank You

Hahahaha, you really hate him, don't you. I'm glad he my President. Is he without fault? Not at all, but he's not a spineless pussy, either. I could give a shit less what other countries think about the US. It's not like we were caught taking Saddam's blood money like Russia, France, ect. Funny that those same countries voted against a UN resolution for a unilateral invasion of Iraq. I wonder why?

God bless George W. Bush for not listening to a bunch of whining, theiving, back-stabbing pussies & thank God for true allies such as Great Britain & Australia.

 

[lanky189]

I'll let you keep him. Our leader doesn't do shit, but also doesn't do anything undesireable.

From the outside looking in though, loyalties and such aside, if this were true, he would be no better than Hitler or Mussolini

oh yeah..sure. because George W Bush has proceeded to systematically annihilate an entire race by the millions,

yeah..just like Mussolini, killing all those in the political parties who oppose him.


Why don't you ask the free people of iraq what they think, ask the women stuck in the rape camps, ask the children locked in jail for thier parents political views, ask the little girls who are allowed to go to school for the first time.

Jesus...I guess you're right. George Bush really IS an asshole, giving people freedom and such....what a prick.

 

[suprahoops]

god poliltics are funny. good vid by the way.

 

[rakkasan]

god poliltics are funny...

I agree, I especially like when the comments come from the clueless.

 

[suprahoops]

ya i prefer to spectate when it comes to such discussions. the things that people say are pretty dam funny. no mind you i dont agree with all of our presidents ideals and decisions, but i wont go so far as to call him a war crimanal.

 

[lanky189]

hoops, i'm with you, althought i am a conservative and i do beleive Bush has been a wonderful leader, I completely accept and understand that other people will dissagree...but I won't sit back and let the leader of the largest free nation of the world be called a criminal, certainly not a war criminal,

 

[jetjock]

I agree, I especially like when the comments come from the clueless.

Speaking of the clueless: http://tinyurl.com/jr5ja

"Almost 90% think the war is retaliation for Saddam’s role in 9/11"

 

[garagefujimoto]

I have great respect for all in this forum and thread, but if you fail to question the respect and excellence of your president/nation...you might just be clue less too:nono:

 

[rakkasan]

I have great respect for all in this forum and thread, but if you fail to question the respect and excellence of your president/nation...you might just be clue less too:nono:

Why only question the President when Congress gave him an unheard of amount of support? I'd love to hear the reasons that you believe that GWB is doing a poor job.

Hear are a few articles that might shed a little light.....

Iraqi Weapons in Syria?

Iraq's WMD Secreted in Syria

 

[jetjock]

Why only question the President when Congress gave him an unheard of amount of support? I'd love to hear the reasons that you believe that GWB is doing a poor job.

Hear are a few articles that might shed a little light...

Interesting theories even if they are flawed. Congress gave support based on "faulty intelligence" (yeah right) and even if Iraq did have weapons Saddam wasn't involved in 9-11. Or haven't you read the commisison's report? Dubya should be impeached on that alone as 9-11 wouldn't have even occured had he been doing his job. Not that Clinton was a prize either. The attack on the Cole was an act of war and he did squat but that we went from an educated intelligent guy who couldn't keep it in his pants to a buffoon who can't even speak correctly didn't help.

Why aren't we invading Syria? Iran? North Korea? Iraq (which has been one massive screw up after another from day one) aside, this clown has done so many things wrong, immoral, and illegal you couldn't keep track of them if you tried. We won't even go into how he took an enormous reservior of worldwide goodwill after 9-11 and squandered it.

Nor shall we go into how he and his cronies have trampled the Constitution, set environmental advances back decades, climbed into bed with big business, and violated human rights wolrdwide in the name of "security". Do you feel "safer" today? Are there less terrorists than before? Is the US more despised today than after 9-11? Are your civil rights the same? Do you honestly believe any country can survive as an island? Let's hope Dumbya's war on democrarcy fails just as miserably as his as his war on terror and his war on drugs. The only thing that makes him tolerable at this point is knowing history will record him as one of the worst presidents we've ever had. Since he's obsessed with that it'll be the sweetest plum of all.

Course, it isn't really his fault. The real blame lies with the 50% of Americans who re-elected him. The gun totin', flag wavin' beer swillin' football watchin' rednecks who were too ignorant, uneducated, scared, and lazy to do their homework. If there is one thing I've learned from a lifetime of travel it's that a fair percentage of average Americans are arrogant, ignorant, cloistered sorts who possess neither care nor knowledge of what goes on outside their own little world. And to think the only thing that once made me ashamed of being an American was Jerry Springer. It's often said a people get the government they deserve and this proves it although even they're beginning to wise up:

http://tinyurl.com/n76a2

I also long ago learned not to debate politics with youngsters as most are as clueless about the subject as they are about life in general, which is astounding when you consider they're the ones who're going to have to live with the mess being created. I simply found the numbers in that survey of the military interestings as they're the ones dying. Makes one wonder if they really believe what they say or if they're simply mouthing the party line. Fwiw I served in two branches of the military and and have nothing but respect for them. It's why I'm angry to see their duty, honor, and lives squandered on such a foolish and immoral cause that is destined to fail.

 

[rakkasan]

Interesting theories even if they are flawed. Congress gave support based on "faulty intelligence" (yeah right) and even if Iraq did have weapons Saddam wasn't involved in 9-11.

They had the same intel that the cabinet did. The same intel that the rest of the worlds intel agancies agreed to.

Or haven't you read the commisison's report? Dubya should be impeached on that alone as 9-11 wouldn't have even occured had he been doing his job. Not that Clinton was a prize either. The attack on the Cole was an act of war and he did squat but that we went from an educated intelligent guy who couldn't keep it in his pants to a buffoon who can't even speak correctly didn't help

Why aren't we invading Syria? Iran? North Korea? .

One reason I can think of. How many of those countries have used their WMDs? Answer: None, but Iraq......

Iraq (which has been one massive screw up after another from day one) aside, this clown has done so many things wrong, immoral, and illegal you couldn't keep track of them if you tried. .

Wrong? What exaclty do you mean by wrong? Immoral? Are those the things that you find offensive or is there a published list of things that are found to be offensive? Illegal? Lay out the list of things that are illegal. I'm sure that if he's done something that is illegal, it would have landed before the house by now.

We won't even go into how he took an enormous reservior of worldwide goodwill after 9-11 and squandered it.

Nor shall we go into how he and his cronies have trampled the Constitution, set environmental advances back decades, climbed into bed with big business, and violated human rights wolrdwide in the name of "security".

What human rights violations are you talking about? I know the several talking points, but you'll have to narrow them down for me.

Do you feel "safer" today?

I never have fealt threatened

Are there less terrorists than before?

There are less attacks, no?

Is the US more despised today than after 9-11?

We we dispised before 9/11, hence 9/11.

Are your civil rights the same?

They haven't changed since the Carter Administration

Do you honestly believe any country can survive as an island?

Of course not, but do think that the rest of todays world can survive without us?

Let's hope Dumbya's war on democrarcy fails just as miserably as his as his war on terror and his war on drugs. The only thing that makes him tolerable at this point is knowing history will record him as one of the worst presidents we've ever had. Since he's obsessed with that it'll be the sweetest plum of all.

That's the spirit!

Course, it isn't really his fault. The real blame lies with the 50% of Americans who re-elected him. The gun totin', flag wavin' beer swillin' football watchin' rednecks who were too ignorant, uneducated, scared, and lazy to do their homework.

I guess I'm ignorant, lazy & uneducated. Funny, I haven't had the time to notice those facts since I work at leat 60 hours a week (normally 70+) in order to pay off my student loans I took in order to get my masters...)

If there is one thing I've learned from a lifetime of travel it's that a fair percentage of average Americans are arrogant, ignorant, cloistered sorts who possess neither care nor knowledge of what goes on outside their own little world.

<---- That's me. I live in a dog-eat-dog world that doesn't benefit from 30-60 days of vacation a year like the rest of the world gets. I bust my ass from sun up to well past sun down to earn the cash that pays for my gas guzzling SUV & sports car & a huge house. I'm not ashamed to admit it. On the flip side, I use less gas than 90% of the free world. I work at home & my wife doesn't work/ My kids ride their bikes to school. My average gas usage is less than 8 gallons a week. I paid big bucks for 18 SEER A/C units for our house & solar heating.

And to think the only thing that once made me ashamed of being an American was Jerry Springer. It's often said a people get the government they deserve and this proves it although even they're beginning to wise up:

http://tinyurl.com/n76a2

What does the public think about all the Administrations since the Carter Administration?

I also long ago learned not to debate politics with youngsters as most are as clueless about the subject as they are about life in general.

I agree with you on this.

I simply found the numbers in that survey of the military interestings as they're the ones dying. Makes one wonder if they really believe what they say or if they're simply mouthing the party line.

I don't disagree too much with this either....

Fwiw I served in two branches of the military and and have nothing but respect for them. It's why I'm angry to see their duty, honor, and lives squandered on such a foolish and immoral cause that is destined to fail.

I served for many years myself (Active Duty Infantryman & A Gaurdsman too), but I fail to see Iraq as a "foolish and immoral cause that is destined to fail". To not help the Iraqi people, regardless of WMD or not, but rather due to oppression by Saddams party, would PROVE to the world that Americans are "arrogant, ignorant, cloistered sorts who possess neither care nor knowledge of what goes on outside their own little world." You can't have it both ways....

 

[jetjock]

Spoken like a true Southerner. A Floridian no less, a state run by Dubya's brother. I wish I'd noticed that earlier so I could've save my breath. Had your state it's shit together in 2000 we'd not even be in this mess. And this flag wavin' "USA Number One" thing (typical of folks down there) you've got going on makes you about as blind as they come.

If you had the education I was referring to you'd have understood I didn't mean any degree you obatined from a university. And you confirmed that by working so much to live the way you do you *are* living in your own little world and haven't a clue about what goes on in the real one. As I said, uneducated. I'll bet you don't have a passport and if you do I could count on one hand the number of times you've been outside our border other than military service.

You also seem to put a great deal of faith in the government's ability to do the right thing for the country instead of looking after itself, hence your "if Bush had done anything wrong he'd have been called on it by now". How clueless is that? Bush is bad enough but the real problem is the government in general. It's been out of control for a long time and all it needed was someone like W to come along and push it over the edge while manipulating many of those in it.

Who exactly did Saddam use his WMDs on? His own people sure, but not us. The other countries mentioned already have or are developing nuclear capabilities and pose a far greater threat but you don't see us invading. Instead we're just pissing them off by blustering. The war in Iraq had nothing to do with WMDs. Bush knew it from day one and now so does everyone else. And many of the weapons Saddam did have he got from us, or have you forgotten we were pals for years? Same with Osama back when the Russians were in Afghanistan. In fact Osama's hatred of us is directly linked to how we abandoned the country back in those days.

Yeah, Saddam had WMDs...but not as many as we do. He did have the chemical and biological ones most of the world has banned but we still have them because W has backed out of or refused to sign the treaties. If Saddam has weapons we must stop him....with our weapons. Makes perfect sense.

Less attacks? You must be joking. It took years to plan and execute 9-11 and the clock is ticking. Nothing has changed except there are more people ready, even eager, to participate in the next one. If you think the country is safer than it was you've got your head deeply buried in the sand. Not that any terrorist would "waste" an attack on Florida or that terror attacks are the real point anyway.

How how we helped the Iraqi people exactly? Their country is about to dissolve into civil war. Not to mention we had no right to invade another sovereign nation based on lies and without just cause in the first place. Or you you still clinging to a 9-11 connection? And there is a lot more oppression in the world than Saddam was ever guilty of. Maybe you hadn't heard of what happened in Rawanda 10 years ago when we sat back and did nothing while a million people were slaughtered. Or what's happening in North Korea today.

Then there are the Saudis, one of the biggest human rights violators on the planet. But they've got all that oil you need for your SUV and A/C so it's OK we look the other way. That said, the US has no business being the world's policeman anyway, especially when it has so many domestic problems of it's own.

Iraqi democracy? A pipe dream. Fundamentalist religious beliefs and democracy are incompatible with each other. Just look at the problems the mere hint of it cause in the US. Iraq is bad enough but you've still chosen to ignore Bush's other crimes. What human rights violations? Good grief, have you been living in cave? Try holding innocent people (including US citizens) snatched off the street in secret foreign prisons without due process. Try tourture in the prisons we do know about. The Founding Fathers must be spinning in their graves. Bush has already been indicted by the International Court of Justice for war crimes. Course, the US bailed out of the World Court before that happened. How convienent.

Your civil rights haven't changed since the Carter Administration?!? Ever hear of The Patriot Act? Ever bother to *read* it?

As I said, it won't be guys like me that'll either have to live with the mess or pay the enormous cost in dollars since I've already bought my retirement home abroad. Love it or leave it? Watch me. I'd rather lie on a beach in a safe country with enlightened people than live in one that is well on it's way to a decline, something that eventually happens to all great civilizations. We're on our way to being a first rate third rate nation, a mere shadow of our great past, and it's people who think like you that are making it happen.

Ah well, we're never going to agree on this anyway so why bother. The bottom line is if what W is doing will work. Will it make the country safer while preserving it's principles? Will it make the US a place the world admires and strives to emulate? The answer is clear to those with perspective beyond where their next paycheck or gallon of gas is coming from or what brand of beer should be bought for the Super Bowl.

 

[rakkasan]

Spoken like a true Southerner. A Floridian no less, a state run by Dubya's brother. I wish I'd noticed that earlier so I could've save my breath. Had your state it's shit together in 2000 we'd not even be in this mess. And this flag wavin' "USA Number One" thing (typical of folks down there) you've got going on makes you about as blind as they come.

Nice dig. Could you show your ass any more than that?

If you had the education I was referring to you'd have understood I didn't mean any degree you obatined from a university. And you confirmed that by working so much to live the way you do you *are* living in your own little world and haven't a clue about what goes on in the real one. As I said, uneducated. I'll bet you don't have a passport and if you do I could count on one hand the number of times you've been outside our border other than military service.

I'm not a world traveler in the civilian sector, big deal. I have been to Panama, Ireland & several arab nations on the goverments tab, but I don't understand the passport deal. Sorry

You also seem to put a great deal of faith in the government's ability to do the right thing for the country instead of looking after itself, hence your "if Bush had done anything wrong he'd have been called on it by now". How clueless is that? Bush is bad enough but the real problem is the government in general. It's been out of control for a long time and all it needed was someone like W to come along and push it over the edge while manipulating many of those in it.

Who exactly did Saddam use his WMDs on? His own people sure, but not us.

LOL, that is rich. "arrogant, ignorant, cloistered sorts who possess neither care nor knowledge of what goes on outside their own little world."

The other countries mentioned already have or are developing nuclear capabilities and pose a far greater threat but you don't see us invading. Instead we're just pissing them off by blustering. The war in Iraq had nothing to do with WMDs. Bush knew it from day one and now so does everyone else.

Everyone? Are you sure you want to say everyone?

And many of the weapons Saddam did have he got from us, or have you forgotten we were pals for years?

We were also pals with the USSR during WWII, so what's your point?

Same with Osama back when the Russians were in Afghanistan.

LOL, see above

In fact Osama's hatred of us is directly linked to how we abandoned the country back in those days.

Yeah, Saddam had WMDs...but not as many as we do. He did have the chemical and biological ones most of the world has banned but we still have them because W has backed out of or refused to sign the treaties. If Saddam has weapons we must stop him....with our weapons. Makes perfect sense.

LOL, and we used them when? Oh, that's right, against Japan.....over fifty years ago.

Less attacks? You must be joking.

No, I'm not. Am I wrong, did I miss an attack?

It took years to plan and execute 9-11 and the clock is ticking. Nothing has changed except there are more people ready, even eager, to participate in the next one. If you think the country is safer than it was you've got your head deeply buried in the sand. Not that any terrorist would "waste" an attack on Florida or that terror attacks are the real point anyway.

Do you have something against us dumb as red necks? It must be that we stopped your boy from getting elected. Pity.

How how we helped the Iraqi people exactly? Their country is about to dissolve into civil war. Not to mention we had no right to invade another sovereign nation based on lies and without just cause in the first place.

There is where you are wrong. We have every right to as per the sixty some odd UN resolutions that Saddm willfully broke.

Or you you still clinging to a 9-11 connection? And there is a lot more oppression in the world than Saddam was ever guilty of. Maybe you hadn't heard of what happened in Rawanda 10 years ago when we sat back and did nothing while a million people were slaughtered. Or what's happening in North Korea today.

I guess that you haven't heard of Kosovo & Somolia, either

Then there are the Saudis, one of the biggest human rights violators on the planet. But they've got all that oil you need for your SUV and A/C so it's OK we look the other way. That said, the US has no business being the world's policeman anyway, especially when it has so many domestic problems of it's own.

I can't disagree with that

Iraqi democracy? A pipe dream. Fundamentalist religious beliefs and democracy are incompatible with each other.

The fundamental problem with the Iraqis (and other arab nations vs democracy) is they place religion before goverment.

Just look at the problem sit causes at home. Iraq is bad enough but you've still chosen to ignore Bush's other crimes

Again, list the *crimes*, please. Can't do it, can you?

. What human rights violations? Good grief, have you been living in cave? Try holding innocent people (including US citizens)

Any links to the US citizen claims?

snatched off the street in secret foreign prisons without due process. Try tourture in the prisons we do know about.

LOL, the Abu Graib instance. If I recall correctly, the ones that tortured the detainies were sentenced to several years in prison, but let me guess, Bush was behind it, right?

The Founding Fathers must be spinning in their graves. Bush has already been indicted by the International Court of Justice for war crimes. Course, the US bailed out of the World Court before that happened. How convienent.

LOL, the white phoporus / targeting civilians arguement. LOL again

You civil rights haven't changed since the Carter Administration?!? Ever hear of The Patriot Act? Ever bother to *read* it?

Wire taps I presume? Please fall into the trap....

As I said, it won't be guys like me that'll either have to live with the mess or pay the enormous cost in dollars since I've already bought my retirement home abroad. Love it or leave it? Watch me.

OK, I'll watch??

I'd rather lie on a beach in a safe country with enlightened people than live in one that is well on it's way to a decline, something that eventually happens to all great civilizations. We're on our way to being a first rate third rate nation, a mere shadow of our great past, and it's people who think like you that are making it happen.

Ah well, we're never going to agree on this anyway so why bother. The bottom line is if what W is doing will work. Will it make the country safer while safeguarding it's principles? Will it make the US a place the world admires and strives to emulate? The answer is clear to those with perspective beyond where their next paycheck or gallon of gas is coming from or what brand of beer should be bought for the Super Bowl.

Again, nice dig. But I expect nothing less from someone that is still sore that Kerry lost. Say it with me, President Bush. Don't worry, you'll get accustom to it over the next 2 years.

 

[jetjock]

Sorry Son, you'll have to do better than that to get a rise out of me. I'm no Kerry fan at all but he would've been the lesser of two evils. It's obvious you haven't read any of the material I've mentioned so why beat a dead horse. Fwiw I envy you in some ways. It's far better to live in the dark because the more truth you learn the angrier and disgusted you'll become. Remaining ignorant is so much easier.

So you've had your say and I've had mine. History will prove one of us right but until then these are the facts just on Iraq: Putting aside the billions being spent, while you sit isolated in your big air conditioned house playing with your PC, Supra, and SUV, people are dying by the thousands. An *enormous* amount of suffering is going on and the men, women and children (including our own in the military) being blown apart daily are no different from those in your family or mine.

They are somebody's brother, sister, wife or husband and their loss is no less painful than yours could be when (not if) the next attack comes. Since their blood is on our hands, on each and every one of us who answers to the name "American", all of it'd better turn out to have been for a damn good reason.

 

[Joel W.]

Come on guys, let's not get out of hand here. Maybe we should just agree to disagree? If we dont like the current situation, let's all remember to vote accordingly next time.. <walks away slowly with no sudden movements>

 

[lanky189]

aight jetjock, thread closed, thanks to your personal attacks,

i can handle a heated debate, we all can, but when you resort to insulting someone because of where they live, or any reason, that's it.

 

[GrimJack]

Some angry people in here, I'm sorry to see.

Some good points on both sides, too. Remember, this is the internet - I highly doubt that JJ actually hates anyone for living in Florida... or Iraq, for that matter.

I'm afraid that only time will be the real judge here.