Water/Meth and High boost coming. Time for tuning help/suggestions/experience.

[IJ.]

Other thing is you have to be careful mixing it as it's quite toxic to peoples

I had the mix close but soon as I added the Bug remover concentrate to the washer bottle it tipped it over as its main ingredient is taaadaaaa alcohol.....

 

[Supra0089]

There is an intercooling effect when using the Meth but I like the simpler to tune/safer Water injection route after seeing some funky AFR's with Water/Meth, also keep in mind 50/50 is still flammable, I found this out after testing a batch on the floor of the shed, I was using the washer bottle as a tank so was hosing the mixture on the screen thinking it was safe at that ratio.....

I ran 6x 110cc Nozzles at 160psi and a max of 80% duty cycle on the Pump motor..

There are limitations to just how much timing/boost increase you can get away with but it's something that needs to be done on a dyno in a safe environment if you're going to push the edge.

I will start researching into just using water instead of meth, but a couple quick questions:
You said that meth gives "funky" a/f numbers in comparison to water. How does meth effect a/f ratios differently than water? What will we expect to see with h20 injection?

6x 110cc nozzels at 80% duty...to clarify...does this mean you had 6 separate injector nozzles? Where did you place them, all on the throttle body or in the IC piping?

Thanks IJ

 

[gottadiesel]

You said that meth gives "funky" a/f numbers in comparison to water. How does meth effect a/f ratios differently than water? What will we expect to see with h20 injection?

IJ, please correct me if I am incorrect, but methanol is a fuel, thereby if you are adding fuel beyond what the ECU is telling the injectors to flow, then you will run richer than without. I believe the water is simply to keep Cylinders cooler... thereby reducing the risk of denotation.

Personally I'd NOT use the Meth, get the AF's as close as you can on Gas then Add straight water as detonation suppression only.

I used a pair of Electric Ears to find the incipient detonation threshold with my 7M then tuned the water injection to that, adding boost/timing/water as needed.

If you can "Hear" detonation it's too late.

So my follow up question to that,without having the experience to find that spot of imminent detonation, is there a safe "added boost" figure that one could expect injecting water only? Would it be the same as meth, which from what I have read seems to be around 23psi, I would not plan to run over 20psi regardless on my motor and would not pass 18 without being on a dyno. I am really not wanting to run much over 400rwhp on my motor setup, need the investment to last...

Will water alter the WB sensor reading? I am assuming that all of the oxygen in the water would be used no different than the air. Do the EGT readings play a bigger role with verifying that the water is doing it's job?

As you can tell, still getting my head around the entire process that the injection of meth or water has on the motor. Started to debate whether I should just leave my car alone (it is my DD of 30k a year) and at this time is reliable and running very good... but I am thinking that even during daily driving and even at the 16psi level, the injection system may just add additional insurance to the motor.

 

[IJ.]

I will start researching into just using water instead of meth, but a couple quick questions:
You said that meth gives "funky" a/f numbers in comparison to water. How does meth effect a/f ratios differently than water? What will we expect to see with h20 injection?

6x 110cc nozzels at 80% duty...to clarify...does this mean you had 6 separate injector nozzles? Where did you place them, all on the throttle body or in the IC piping?

Thanks IJ

Methanol has a different stoichiometric value to Gas, Lambda 1 = 14.7 AFR for gas and 6.4 AFR for Methanol so any reading on a Wideband is no longer going to be accurate as I stated earlier.

Shouldn't see any noticable difference in readings with plain water, pic of my 7M setup below.

IJ, please correct me if I am incorrect, but methanol is a fuel, thereby if you are adding fuel beyond what the ECU is telling the injectors to flow, then you will run richer than without. I believe the water is simply to keep Cylinders cooler... thereby reducing the risk of denotation.



So my follow up question to that,without having the experience to find that spot of imminent detonation, is there a safe "added boost" figure that one could expect injecting water only? Would it be the same as meth, which from what I have read seems to be around 23psi, I would not plan to run over 20psi regardless on my motor and would not pass 18 without being on a dyno. I am really not wanting to run much over 400rwhp on my motor setup, need the investment to last...

Will water alter the WB sensor reading? I am assuming that all of the oxygen in the water would be used no different than the air. Do the EGT readings play a bigger role with verifying that the water is doing it's job?

As you can tell, still getting my head around the entire process that the injection of meth or water has on the motor. Started to debate whether I should just leave my car alone (it is my DD of 30k a year) and at this time is reliable and running very good... but I am thinking that even during daily driving and even at the 16psi level, the injection system may just add additional insurance to the motor.

The water will have a cleaning effect removing Carbon deposits, these can be a cause of preignition and detonation in an otherwise healthy engine, it also offers a degree of detonation suppression due to the phase change/heat transfer effect, keep in mind it's a bandaid and not an alternative to a good tune.

As for how much can you run boost wise, sorry too open ended and too many variables to give a "safe" number, I usually tune on the dyno taking it up to rattle using the electric ears then back it down 2 degrees and 2 psi from that point and that's "my" safe setting.

"Incipient Detonation" is another matter, it can be present at times even on a safe tune and this is where Water Injection pays off as this type of detonation while only background IS doing long term culmative damage and eventually an engine will fail for no apparent reason or fail from the first audible rattle.

 

[gottadiesel]

The water will have a cleaning effect removing Carbon deposits, these can be a cause of preignition and detonation in an otherwise healthy engine, it also offers a degree of detonation suppression due to the phase change/heat transfer effect, keep in mind it's a bandaid and not an alternative to a good tune.

As for how much can you run boost wise, sorry too open ended and too many variables to give a "safe" number, I usually tune on the dyno taking it up to rattle using the electric ears then back it down 2 degrees and 2 psi from that point and that's "my" safe setting.

"Incipient Detonation" is another matter, it can be present at times even on a safe tune and this is where Water Injection pays off as this type of detonation while only background IS doing long term culmative damage and eventually an engine will fail for no apparent reason or fail from the first audible rattle.

Fair enough, when I asked the question, I knew in the back of my mind that it was probably not a question that could be fairly answered... But your approach makes all the sense in the world.

I am in no way looking for a band-aid, I think my tune is fairly solid (but I am not a seasoned pro) using maft-pro and tuned via the VE table (only in open loop). I am monitoring timing, but have not begun to touch the alteration of timing as of yet. I was looking more for the ability to be able to run the motor as if it was using 116 racing fuel without having to fill the tank with racing fuel... I do not typically run higher than 16psi on 92 octane currently, alarm is set at 17 (if goes over 17 for more than 1 second, opens WG full till reset) So I am looking for a way (if one exists) to safely go to 20psi (assuming being on a Dyno and monitoring for knock while tuning) This would be a good time to make the modification of keeping things clean and flushed with the water, as I am only at 10k on a compete re-build.

Did you build your listening tool or did you buy one, they do not look to difficult to build, but if cheap enough, sometimes easier just to buy. I was also thinking of connecting the output to an O-scope in addition, until my ears are trained on the frequency I am looking for... maybe it is more obvious than I am thinking it will be...

Thanks for your time IJ

 

[IJ.]

The Dyno shop owns the "Ears" they're available at most big automotive shops, I had bought a MoTeC "SKM" standalone knock module to keep things under control but wrote the car off without ever having used it

 

[CajunKenny]

I have been considering one of these for quite some time. Maybe it's time...

http://www.phormula.co.uk/

 

[IJ.]

Use one once on the Dyno and you'll see the 7M in a whole new light

 

[CPT Furious]

In a good or bad way? I'm assuming it's noisy, but you know what they say about "assume"!

 

[Supra0089]

Use one once on the Dyno and you'll see the 7M in a whole new light

This makes me nervous...

 

[gottadiesel]

I have been considering one of these for quite some time. Maybe it's time...

http://www.phormula.co.uk/

+2... except my considering is of more recent :icon_bigg...

I am thinking of the KS-4, then send output to AEM Truboost to shutdown boost controller in the event of knock detected...

Using one on a dyno once, would of course help with proper tuning and not over extending the 7M, but a setup like this or another manufacture similar, would add insurance of something more minor that may cause knock, like bad pump gas...

CK, let me know what you end up doing, I may run over the mountains to help you on the dyno, even if I do not install a kit yet, just so we can successfully get one complete... and of course am in no way seeing if your blows up 1st:icon_wink

 

[CajunKenny]

Methanol has a different stoichiometric value to Gas, Lambda 1 = 14.7 AFR for gas and 6.4 AFR for Methanol so any reading on a Wideband is no longer going to be accurate as I stated earlier.

The AEM WB's have a Lambda Reading option.

Shouldn't see any noticable difference in readings with plain water

Interesting. I'm no chemical expert; but, I would think that you'd see a slightly leaner condition.

Do I see a Fluke 78 there...? :naughty:

The water will have a cleaning effect removing Carbon deposits, these can be a cause of preignition and detonation in an otherwise healthy engine, it also offers a degree of detonation suppression due to the phase change/heat transfer effect, keep in mind it's a bandaid and not an alternative to a good tune.

As for how much can you run boost wise, sorry too open ended and too many variables to give a "safe" number, I usually tune on the dyno taking it up to rattle using the electric ears then back it down 2 degrees and 2 psi from that point and that's "my" safe setting.

"Incipient Detonation" is another matter, it can be present at times even on a safe tune and this is where Water Injection pays off as this type of detonation while only background IS doing long term culmative damage and eventually an engine will fail for no apparent reason or fail from the first audible rattle.

I don't think IJ's intention is to scare us from using Water/Meth. I know he's mean; but, I don't think he's that mean!

What I'm getting out of this is that water and/or water/meth are both band-aides for low octane fuel. Both perform the same basic function and if there is an injection failure when using either at high boost, the end result is the same.

Additionally, what is ringing loud is that it is EXTREMELY risky to tune with injection without being on a dyno. But, we ALL already know this....right!?

He has posted great info and as usual, done a superb job of helping us make an informed decision on injection.

+2... except my considering is of more recent :icon_bigg...

I am thinking of the KS-4, then send output to AEM Truboost to shutdown boost controller in the event of knock detected...

Using one on a dyno once, would of course help with proper tuning and not over extending the 7M, but a setup like this or another manufacture similar, would add insurance of something more minor that may cause knock, like bad pump gas...

CK, let me know what you end up doing, I may run over the mountains to help you on the dyno, even if I do not install a kit yet, just so we can successfully get one complete... and of course am in no way seeing if your blows up 1st:icon_wink

Yeah, I'm looking at the KS-4. I'll keep you posted on all of this....

And yes..............................we can use my car as a guinea pig. I do have a few spare 7M's after all..... :biglaugh:

 

[IJ.]

+2... except my considering is of more recent :icon_bigg...

I am thinking of the KS-4, then send output to AEM Truboost to shutdown boost controller in the event of knock detected...

Using one on a dyno once, would of course help with proper tuning and not over extending the 7M, but a setup like this or another manufacture similar, would add insurance of something more minor that may cause knock, like bad pump gas...

CK, let me know what you end up doing, I may run over the mountains to help you on the dyno, even if I do not install a kit yet, just so we can successfully get one complete... and of course am in no way seeing if your blows up 1st:icon_wink

LOL'd for real @ the above

 

[CajunKenny]

Yep. That's some good 'ol Washington Love right there!

 

[Blackdawg]

Ok, i like this thread a lot as i am building my car up and will be running a maft pro as well. Eventually i would like to run meth/water too.

But there are some weird things in this thread that i dont really agree with.

First off to me most ppl go to meth/water to be able to really unlock the potential of there motor but dont want to buy race gas or E85 isnt available. I dont see it as a "band aid" at all. To me it like getting to run race gas without paying for it. Not to mention it helps with detonation.

Second i seriously am curious as to why you ran 6 different injectors for water?? AEM clearly states that the nozzle on there kit should be before the TB...i think like 12-18in..not sure on that. But to me that just seems way to much..

but the fact that methanol is acidic and can damage aluminum is scary..

So bring the heat and flame me up. Im new here, been on SF, and am ready to learn and will be following this thread a lot. Want to kno how to do this all right..

 

[IJ.]

Ok, i like this thread a lot as i am building my car up and will be running a maft pro as well. Eventually i would like to run meth/water too.

But there are some weird things in this thread that i dont really agree with.

First off to me most ppl go to meth/water to be able to really unlock the potential of there motor but dont want to buy race gas or E85 isnt available. I dont see it as a "band aid" at all. To me it like getting to run race gas without paying for it. Not to mention it helps with detonation.

Second i seriously am curious as to why you ran 6 different injectors for water?? AEM clearly states that the nozzle on there kit should be before the TB...i think like 12-18in..not sure on that. But to me that just seems way to much..

but the fact that methanol is acidic and can damage aluminum is scary..

So bring the heat and flame me up. Im new here, been on SF, and am ready to learn and will be following this thread a lot. Want to kno how to do this all right..

Unequal distribution in the FFIM I made and a bad experience in the past with a "Wet Intake" and a backfire (was running 50/50 at that stage)

For the Chev I went back to a single 600cc nozzle before the TB and straight water.

You can leave the kiddie flamming BS on SF it doesn't fly here.

 

[CajunKenny]

First off to me most ppl go to meth/water to be able to really unlock the potential of there motor but dont want to buy race gas or E85 isnt available. I dont see it as a "band aid" at all. To me it like getting to run race gas without paying for it. Not to mention it helps with detonation.

Fair enough...

but the fact that methanol is acidic and can damage aluminum is scary..

50/50 mix is obviously the best way to slow the corrosion process. Also remember that it's only injected while the MP is Positive.

Unequal distribution in the FFIM I made and a bad experience in the past with a "Wet Intake" and a backfire (was running 50/50 at that stage)

I would most certainly need a new set of trousers if this happens to my car. I hope you have that thing hung over the mantle!

 

[suprahero]

subscribed. I don't have anything useful to add, but I'm willing to learn from others. I have been running mine on one nozzle for the last two or three years with the 50/50 I buy from Summit. So far I've made 640rwhp and 610rwtq. I am thinking about switching to e85 this spring though. We'll see.

 

[Blackdawg]

Unequal distribution in the FFIM I made and a bad experience in the past with a "Wet Intake" and a backfire (was running 50/50 at that stage)

For the Chev I went back to a single 600cc nozzle before the TB and straight water.

You can leave the kiddie flamming BS on SF it doesn't fly here.

DAMN!..thats scary..lol

but fair enough haha

---------- Post added at 11:37 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:31 AM ----------

50/50 mix is obviously the best way to slow the corrosion process. Also remember that it's only injected while the MP is Positive.

Would you please elaborate?

 

[CajunKenny]

There are typically three injection ratios used.
1. 50/50 - Meth/Water - Least Corrosive
2. 70/30 - Meth/Water - More Corrosive
3. 100% - Meth - Most Corrosive

The kits are designed to inject only when the manifold pressure (MP) is positive (during boost). Most of us here don't have 100% track cars so when we're driving to get milk and bread, injection isn't taking place. Unless there's a Honduh to spank along the way.

Basically, no boost = no injection.