Spark plugs
- Thread starter alacran1
- Start date
jetjock;1968301 said:
sadly every thing I typed is true, but it just shows why alot of peeps left supra mania
Not entirely. Platinums are cheaper in the long run and for a na running 0 boost there is no point for a cheaper plug that doesn't last as long and requires frequent changing invoking taking off the y pipe in order to change them.
Ya have to think about some thing thou, my main post was never about durability witch I explained in full detail
20,000 km or miles is about average for the life of a plug so really if you think about it that's not to bad if you are after performance every little bit helps
back when I had a n/a motor I swaped from a new plat plug to a new copper and what I found was it ran abit better and found it was much happier when on cold start
and then once I put a coil on the car I widen the gap of my plug since now I had more voltage to over comes the Resistance to air
so really in the end it relies on the person buying it and what he wants
ps if you want to be cheep don't buy a supra go buy a rolla or a honda civic it will get better gas mileage any way
20,000 km or miles is about average for the life of a plug so really if you think about it that's not to bad if you are after performance every little bit helps
back when I had a n/a motor I swaped from a new plat plug to a new copper and what I found was it ran abit better and found it was much happier when on cold start
and then once I put a coil on the car I widen the gap of my plug since now I had more voltage to over comes the Resistance to air
so really in the end it relies on the person buying it and what he wants
ps if you want to be cheep don't buy a supra go buy a rolla or a honda civic it will get better gas mileage any way
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Sorry nash but that makes no sense. Most manufactures these days dont recommend plugs till 100k plus. So your first post was irrelevant as platinum's are more efficient in the long run than coppers.
And this never had anything about being cheap so i don't get what you are trying to get at. Op asked what was best for his na and the logical answer was givin and yours wasn't it.
And this never had anything about being cheap so i don't get what you are trying to get at. Op asked what was best for his na and the logical answer was givin and yours wasn't it.
Best in my words is a copper plug cause I want the best I can get if i have to change them once year so be it and what i explained was text book gooogle it if you want
I explained that in my first post
you could buy iridium spark plug's and have best of both worlds some what
if you look at todays plugs IE plats are getting phased out because there not efficient for emissions
I explained that in my first post
you could buy iridium spark plug's and have best of both worlds some what
if you look at todays plugs IE plats are getting phased out because there not efficient for emissions
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Call me crazy, but I like good metrics.
"Ran a bit better" and "much happier" are very bad metrics. They're completely subjective, and as such are prone to placebo effect to the point where I would generally completely ignore them. The metrics that you DO have are all indicating that the platinum tipped plugs are better.
I ran platinum plugs, as per stock in my 7M-GE. I daily drove it for half a million kilometers, in Canada, so cold starts were far more common than warm ones. Most time I didn't have the option to plug it in, either, so there were a lot of VERY cold starts. Never had a problem that related to the ignition. Battery, sure. Ignition, no.
Maintenance on the Supra wasn't skimped on, but I certainly didn't go looking to do more. If I had added removing the throttle body and Y pipe to the yearly task list, it would have been a stupid thing to do. Add in that I put on 465,000 km between Feb 1996 and Apr, 2007 and that's actually twice a year, thanks. As it was, I was kind of stretching the lifespan on the platinum spark plugs, since I went through 3 sets in that time. At a lifespan of 20,000 km, I'd be on my third set of coppers on the 7M-GTE that I swapped in. As is, I'm still on the same set of NGK platinum plugs that I installed with the engine. (1 heat range cooler than stock.) It's not about being cheap, it's about chances to mess things up by removing parts, opening up the cooling systems needlessly and replacing gaskets when it simply does not need to be done.
For performance... On an otherwise stock 7M-GE? Really? I hardly think that spark plugs are going to be any help whatsoever. Copper having less resistance when you're pushing a spark across an air gap is kind of like having 4AWG wire in a USB cable. I bet I could get a better performance gain by taking the burrs off of the distributor cap and rotor. The more durable platinum plug tip would give a more consistent spark as well if you properly shape the ground portion of the plug and gap it well, too.
I'm always skeptical when people make claims that changing something gives gains out of proportion with what I feel is reasonable. Performance gains from spark plugs? MAYBE when coupled with other changes, but on an otherwise stock 7M-GE? I just don't see it happening.
I'm not being cheap either. I own 2 Supras, I know what it costs to maintain them, and make them last. At the power levels that I'm planning, I do not feel that there is enough benefit to be had to make the additional maintenance of spark plugs that don't last worthwhile. I'd figure that a higher power ignition source would have a more reliable and durable effect, but that's just me.
For electrical resistance, yeah, it's true that platinum has about 6 times the resistance of copper. A quick back-of-the-envelope calculation gives me a difference within the spark plug of about 1.5*10^-6 ohms for copper, and 1.0*10-5 ohms for platinum. By comparison, a 1.8mm air-fuel gap under about 250PSI has an initial resistance of about 1.8*10^12 ohms. Once the spark starts, the plasma in the gap has a much lower resistance of only a few kohms. Clearly the reduction of resistance in the spark plug is unimportant. (A difference of a nanometer or so in the spark plug gap will more than swamp it.) The larger surface area of the copper electrode is probably the more significant factor, until the edges of the copper start to erode over the first few dozen kilometers, after which time, you have a constantly shifting variable, and the math starts to get ugly. I followed that down a couple of columns of numbers, but it's never enough of an advantage, and it's only once the average gap starts to increase that it really changes anything. Over the lifespan of the copper plug it goes from being very similar to the (similarly gapped) platinum plug in terms of overall power dissipation to being quite a bit worse, due to the gap lengthening. I assumed that a change in gap of 20% (ie, 1.8mm to 2.0mm) would be the lifespan of the plug. (I was calculating power dissipation since that is what I believe ignites the fuel.) This is partially decided by dwell time, but I was assuming that would be equal between the two different plug types.
For what it's worth, the parasitic inductance of the spark plug wires is of more detriment to the spark ignition than the material or even surface area of the electrodes themselves.
tl;dr. There's not enough performance gain to be worthwhile, just get stock replacement spark plugs.
"Ran a bit better" and "much happier" are very bad metrics. They're completely subjective, and as such are prone to placebo effect to the point where I would generally completely ignore them. The metrics that you DO have are all indicating that the platinum tipped plugs are better.
I ran platinum plugs, as per stock in my 7M-GE. I daily drove it for half a million kilometers, in Canada, so cold starts were far more common than warm ones. Most time I didn't have the option to plug it in, either, so there were a lot of VERY cold starts. Never had a problem that related to the ignition. Battery, sure. Ignition, no.
Maintenance on the Supra wasn't skimped on, but I certainly didn't go looking to do more. If I had added removing the throttle body and Y pipe to the yearly task list, it would have been a stupid thing to do. Add in that I put on 465,000 km between Feb 1996 and Apr, 2007 and that's actually twice a year, thanks. As it was, I was kind of stretching the lifespan on the platinum spark plugs, since I went through 3 sets in that time. At a lifespan of 20,000 km, I'd be on my third set of coppers on the 7M-GTE that I swapped in. As is, I'm still on the same set of NGK platinum plugs that I installed with the engine. (1 heat range cooler than stock.) It's not about being cheap, it's about chances to mess things up by removing parts, opening up the cooling systems needlessly and replacing gaskets when it simply does not need to be done.
For performance... On an otherwise stock 7M-GE? Really? I hardly think that spark plugs are going to be any help whatsoever. Copper having less resistance when you're pushing a spark across an air gap is kind of like having 4AWG wire in a USB cable. I bet I could get a better performance gain by taking the burrs off of the distributor cap and rotor. The more durable platinum plug tip would give a more consistent spark as well if you properly shape the ground portion of the plug and gap it well, too.
I'm always skeptical when people make claims that changing something gives gains out of proportion with what I feel is reasonable. Performance gains from spark plugs? MAYBE when coupled with other changes, but on an otherwise stock 7M-GE? I just don't see it happening.
I'm not being cheap either. I own 2 Supras, I know what it costs to maintain them, and make them last. At the power levels that I'm planning, I do not feel that there is enough benefit to be had to make the additional maintenance of spark plugs that don't last worthwhile. I'd figure that a higher power ignition source would have a more reliable and durable effect, but that's just me.
For electrical resistance, yeah, it's true that platinum has about 6 times the resistance of copper. A quick back-of-the-envelope calculation gives me a difference within the spark plug of about 1.5*10^-6 ohms for copper, and 1.0*10-5 ohms for platinum. By comparison, a 1.8mm air-fuel gap under about 250PSI has an initial resistance of about 1.8*10^12 ohms. Once the spark starts, the plasma in the gap has a much lower resistance of only a few kohms. Clearly the reduction of resistance in the spark plug is unimportant. (A difference of a nanometer or so in the spark plug gap will more than swamp it.) The larger surface area of the copper electrode is probably the more significant factor, until the edges of the copper start to erode over the first few dozen kilometers, after which time, you have a constantly shifting variable, and the math starts to get ugly. I followed that down a couple of columns of numbers, but it's never enough of an advantage, and it's only once the average gap starts to increase that it really changes anything. Over the lifespan of the copper plug it goes from being very similar to the (similarly gapped) platinum plug in terms of overall power dissipation to being quite a bit worse, due to the gap lengthening. I assumed that a change in gap of 20% (ie, 1.8mm to 2.0mm) would be the lifespan of the plug. (I was calculating power dissipation since that is what I believe ignites the fuel.) This is partially decided by dwell time, but I was assuming that would be equal between the two different plug types.
For what it's worth, the parasitic inductance of the spark plug wires is of more detriment to the spark ignition than the material or even surface area of the electrodes themselves.
tl;dr. There's not enough performance gain to be worthwhile, just get stock replacement spark plugs.
supranewbie;1968356 said:
This is a dumb post. It is not a matter of he said/she said. One is right, one is wrong. Because the wrong person will not concede due to pride or wanting people to not know (politics) is the reason for almost all dispute, the "smilie" is dumb for almost all instances.
What's "dumb" is the way it's gone on and on. Not the smiley post. I'm sure it was clear to the OP in the first few posts what was what. It's not that hard to imagine that platinum will take more of a beating than copper. But "pride" and "politics" has kept this "dumb" little spat going. And it's clearly what makes jerks like yourself post the negative shit you're so fond of.
Relax a bit, man. Pull your head out of your ass and quit trying to find something to bitch about in every thread. Life's too short to be an unhappy little girl.
Anyone with half a brain knows that a forum is made up of opinions, regardless whether a particular opinion happens to be fact. The question asked was answered. A long time ago.
Thank you and goodnight
Relax a bit, man. Pull your head out of your ass and quit trying to find something to bitch about in every thread. Life's too short to be an unhappy little girl.
Anyone with half a brain knows that a forum is made up of opinions, regardless whether a particular opinion happens to be fact. The question asked was answered. A long time ago.
Thank you and goodnight
You say forums are filled with opinions but others call it misinformation. Regardless, people nearly always want the truth.
Why hard, especially since it's so wrong? As for Nash he needs to learn something about plasma physics:
Nuff said...
supranewbie;1968434 said:
Why hard, especially since it's so wrong? As for Nash he needs to learn something about plasma physics:
NashMan;1968423 said:
Nuff said...
supranewbie;1968434 said:
And you say relax? I try real hard not to show the stupidity of people like you daily here. In fact I have toned it down a great deal over the years. You can be certain I am not unhappy. You and your attitude has led to the down fall of this country, and you don't even know why. It has allowed socialism to take control in the name of compromise and why is it still going on.
I don't need a learn about plasma physics there jock strap
tried tested and true is the best way and what i lertn in school (theory can only go as far)
and what I said is true every last bit
multi spark box's like msd were down plugs faster (true)
20,000 km on the life of copper plug pending on the coil ie heat (true)
Takes more voltage to over come restance to air (true)
widening a gap of plug cause promote a better flame front if you have enough voltage (ture) this still can very pending on how it drive's after ya test it out
running single tang ground spark plug in a combustion chamber designed around a muilty tange is a bad idea since the first flame front will have to much destotion causing a possible ping (true)
platuimns are being phased out because of emissions cause they want motor's to run hotter(true)
Dan I fully agree with your post and you did post some that is big deal is the size of the electrode it's self this is a big factor
I all so find reading a copper plug easier
With my next build I am doing I am kinda woundering if should run a copper since water and meth is going to break down my plugs faster and geat deal off heat that comes along with more boost
sure there easy to read but I may go iridium this time around
I full under stand the pasebo effect
I used the wrong word cold starts is not what I ment and should have stated it much better
what I meant was it was happier when she was running cold not starting
tried tested and true is the best way and what i lertn in school (theory can only go as far)
and what I said is true every last bit
multi spark box's like msd were down plugs faster (true)
20,000 km on the life of copper plug pending on the coil ie heat (true)
Takes more voltage to over come restance to air (true)
widening a gap of plug cause promote a better flame front if you have enough voltage (ture) this still can very pending on how it drive's after ya test it out
running single tang ground spark plug in a combustion chamber designed around a muilty tange is a bad idea since the first flame front will have to much destotion causing a possible ping (true)
platuimns are being phased out because of emissions cause they want motor's to run hotter(true)
Dan I fully agree with your post and you did post some that is big deal is the size of the electrode it's self this is a big factor
I all so find reading a copper plug easier
With my next build I am doing I am kinda woundering if should run a copper since water and meth is going to break down my plugs faster and geat deal off heat that comes along with more boost
sure there easy to read but I may go iridium this time around
I full under stand the pasebo effect
I used the wrong word cold starts is not what I ment and should have stated it much better
what I meant was it was happier when she was running cold not starting
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stock will do 1.1 but with an upgraded coil I will go on the wide side of toyota spec
range is 1.1mm to 1.3mm
find it funny I still remember
ps v power will ware down faster then a standerd copper plug just cause there is a slot in the electrode
but apparently there a nice plug
range is 1.1mm to 1.3mm
find it funny I still remember
ps v power will ware down faster then a standerd copper plug just cause there is a slot in the electrode
but apparently there a nice plug
There isn't a range, it's 1.1mm (.043 in.) for a GE and .8mm (.031 in.) for a GTE.
Also, my bad for my original comment, I didn't read it as you being the mechanic/tuner, didn't mean to personally attack you.
Also, my bad for my original comment, I didn't read it as you being the mechanic/tuner, didn't mean to personally attack you.
That's ok poodles
but for fun I look it up and I can't beleav I remember the spec's (but yes there is a range) in most cases I will go to the smallest gap
http://www.cygnusx1.net/Supra/Library/TSRM/MK3/manual.aspx?S=A&P=14
get this some old timer's used to file copper electrodes to make them flat again after they crowned from ware and regapped them
I herd of this but I wounder if it just wise tail hummm I even checked google ::shrug::
but for fun I look it up and I can't beleav I remember the spec's (but yes there is a range) in most cases I will go to the smallest gap
http://www.cygnusx1.net/Supra/Library/TSRM/MK3/manual.aspx?S=A&P=14
get this some old timer's used to file copper electrodes to make them flat again after they crowned from ware and regapped them
I herd of this but I wounder if it just wise tail hummm I even checked google ::shrug::
jdmfreak;1968673 said:
My vote is Copper, but that has to do with spark plug inspection.
Then again no one really knows what they're doing these days. lol
I am not an e85 guy but in theroy a copper plug will just die a horrid death with e85 or a methyl hydrate
not from heat but from corrosion ?
reason being is my next build is going to have 2 set's of injectors one for pure meth other for gas well that is the plan thus far
not from heat but from corrosion ?
reason being is my next build is going to have 2 set's of injectors one for pure meth other for gas well that is the plan thus far