Proof of concept (electric drag cars)

Joel W.

Just A Jedi
Nov 7, 2005
1,561
0
0
Washington
Adjuster said:
I have an idea.

Let's pass laws that are totally green.

If you choose to use an electric car, or hybrid car that you charge up off the power grid at night, you have to spend money to install wind or solar power generation to charge your car so you don't create more pollution and power needs to the already overtaxed eletrical power supplies we have right now.

I think that's fair don't you?

Makes perfect sense to me. Your advocating "green" change, and I'm just making sure you play by the rules.

:)

Not a totally bad idea at all in my opinion. I really like it!!!.. Thank you, for helping me here. There is hope yet!
 

Joel W.

Just A Jedi
Nov 7, 2005
1,561
0
0
Washington
b005t3d said:
id like to know how they make it go so fast. i know that an electric motor produces its most torque at 1 rpm or start up. they had to have had that thing geared with like a 20 speed tranny.

What car do you refer to?

23usu4g.gif


http://www.supramania.com/forums/showthread.php?t=24204
 

Joel W.

Just A Jedi
Nov 7, 2005
1,561
0
0
Washington
IJ. said:
LOL nope not even close Joel!

You're thinking of LNG Liquified Natural Gas they do this to make it eaiser to transport I think!

Maybe you can educate me here? We all know I am not so sharp sometimes.....:biglaugh:

The basic difference seems to be the pressure level it's used at, no? There are so many definitions.. One seems to be a byproduct of refining gasoline? The other comes straight out of the ground ready to use?


LPG: A gas consisting primarily of propane, propylene, butane, and butylene in various mixtures. Stored as a liquid by increasing pressure.

LNG: Liquefied natural gas or LNG is natural gas that has been processed to remove impurities and heavy hydrocarbons and then condensed into a liquid at atmospheric pressure and stored in specially designed tanks. LNG has about 1/600th the volume of natural gas in standard atmospheric conditions, making it much more cost-efficient to transport over very long distances. ...

Natural Gas: A mixture of gaseous hydrocarbons, primarily methane, occurring naturally in the earth and used principally as a fuel. Source: Alternative Fuel Vehicle Group.

Propane: A natural hydrocarbon occurring in a gaseous state under normal atmospheric pressure and temperature, however, propane is usually liquefied through pressurization for transportation and storage. Propane is primarily used for rural heating and cooking and as a fuel gas in areas not serviced by natural gas mains and as a petrochemical feed stock. A normally gaseous straight-chain hydrocarbon. Propane is a colorless paraffinic gas that boils at a temperature of -42°C. It is extracted from natural gas or refinery gas streams.

CNG: Natural gas that has been compressed under high pressures, typically between 2000 and 3600 psi, and held in a container. The gas expands when released for use as a fuel. Compressed Natural Gas (CNG) is a substitute for gasoline or diesel fuel. It is considered to be an environmentally "clean" alternative to those fuels. It is made by compressing purified natural gas, and is typically stored and distributed in hard containers. An alternative fuel for motor vehicles; considered one of cleanest because of low hydrocarbon emissions and its vapors are relatively non-ozone producing. However, it does emit a significant quantity of nitrogen oxides.



Methane: (Also called marsh gas.) Colorless, inflammable gas of formula CH 4 ; the simplest hydrocarbon. Methane enters the atmosphere as a result of the anaerobic decay of organic matter in, for example, swamps and rice paddies, and is also produced in large quantities by cattle and termites. It is formed along with coal and oil in fossil fuel deposits, and released to the atmosphere on mining. Methane is itself burned as a fuel, being the major constituent of natural gas

Edit:

Butane: has the chemical formula C 4 H 10 . Butane occurs in natural gas, petroleum and refinery gases. It shows little chemical reactivity at ordinary temperatures but burns readily when ignited in air or oxygen. Butane is sometimes added to propane to be marketed as automotive LPG.

Propylene: An olefin consisting of a short chain of three carbon atoms and six hydrogen atoms - a very important base chemical for the chemical and plastics industries. A flammable gas obtained by cracking petroleum; used in organic synthesis

Butylene: There are four isomers of alkenes which have the chemical formula . All four of these hydrocarbons have four carbon atoms and one double bond in their molecules, but have different chemical structures. The IUPAC and common names, respectively, of these chemical compounds are: The chemical structures are shown at right. The small blue numbers in the structure images are the numbering of the atoms in the main backbone chain of the molecules. ...


What happends when some gases are compressed? They turn into a liquid no? I really am learning as I go here guys (as normal).. So bare with me.
 

ChadMKIII

Yup, Thats The G/F
Jul 14, 2006
369
0
0
34
Bay Area, Ca
Joel,
I am not sure exactly if CNG is turned into liquid-it will if its refrigerated-but I'm not sure if CNG is. But, the difference is getting into chemistry stuff, but referring to your above post, LPG contains propane (mostly) and a few other gases, butane, butylene, etc, while Nat Gas contains primarily methane. All of those gases are radically different chemical compositions and have totally different properties. If I have time I'll add to this later on tonight, but they aren't at all the same.
 

Adjuster

Supramania Contributor
Heck, if I was in power, we would have all the hydro power we could build, and Nuke power where that was not enough.

Gas would be less expensive, and there would be no scare tactics being thrown around to drive up the price by creating panic where none is needed.

Welfare would end with workfare.

Our enemies would be slaughtered.

I'm not saying it would be perfect, but there would be no liberal elite garbage, that's for sure.

I like anything fast, and high tech. So, I like these electric cars, but only as amusement. They are not practical at this point, and they are not easy to fuel, operate and there is no established network of servicing them at this time.

I have seen a few of them destroyed at the salvage yards, and they have to be plastic wrapped and bio hazard marked to keep people away from the potential acid and other chemical problems from the battery packs. It's bad enough when a normal battery is crushed, and the acid is sprayed all over the vehicle, but there is so much more acid to be spread around when you have 50 batteries v/s just one or two in the general population of cars.

As far as burning to death in cars go, most fires are set on purpose. Car's just don't explode into flames like you see in the movies. The fuel tanks are generally located in the center lower part of the car these days, and are made of materials and designed to be pretty rugged. When they are broken open, the fire is intense, but generally brief unless a tire or other parts of the car are caught on fire. (Metal pretty much does not burn, but all the plastic and other flamable stuff sure does.)

I've seen a prius hit by somthing that pushed the rear body panel into the rear of the front seats. (And that takes the battery pack, and smashes it up against the occupants of the vehicle.) It was a dual fatal, and I don't know if they would have lived anyway or not, but the amount of acid sprayed around was pretty damning and disturbing to me, and I look at fatal crashes all the time at work.
I also worked a claim for a new headlight on a Insight, and the owner who is a professor was complaining that he hardly is able to drive it. The vehicle has been at the dealership with one problem or another from the time he leased it... but he was saying it got 70mpg when it was runnning... (That is a honda I belive.. and one of the first hybrid cars, so perhaps there were some bugs to be worked out.)

Here is what I know.
The technology is expensive. The battery packs only have about a 5 year life span. Then they have to be replaced. The cost is going to be 5,000.00 to 7,000.00 or more. (Including labor, it could reach 10k on some models.)
They get great gas mileage, but when compared to the cost of the gas if you bought the same version of that car, or something the same size, with the same performance, you could buy quite a bit more gas for the difference in the price of the "green" version. (Which is why the hybrids and pure electric cars have to be subsidized by the sales of the other cars, and the makers are only doing this to meet California law, so they can sell more of the normal cars in that huge market...)

I think the price will come down over time, but the reality is your always going to pay a premium for the hybrid or electric car over a gas or diesel powered version, and your not going to get your return on investment back anytime soon. (Especially when the batteries start to wear out at 5 to 10k a pop.)
OUch! Can you imagine buying a new Honda or Toyota commuter car that needed a new engine every 5 years? It would never sell very well, so the long term effect of hybrids and electric powered cars will be interesting to see as the economic reality comes home in the short term.

I was excited to see Audi bringing the V10 twin turbo here in the Toureg, but it did not sell very well, and they dropped that engine from the USDM. Only about 500 were sold here. It's a bummer too, it's an awesome engine setup. Tons of tourqe, decient fuel mileage, and since it's turbocharged and diesel, you really have some potential for turning up the boost and getting more tourqe out of that engine.

I think if I had to drive 50 miles to work each way every day, I'd buy a used TDI car from Volkswagen, either in the Jetta, Bug or Golf, and enjoy tinkering with adapting used fry oil to my commuter car. (Not for the environmental aspect, but the smell! Have you smelled one of those cars? It is like going to Mc Donalds, only coming out the tailpipe of your car... LOL)

Add some propane injection, turn up the boost, and after the fry oil is warmed up, look out in the gridlock traffic! LOL
 

Joel W.

Just A Jedi
Nov 7, 2005
1,561
0
0
Washington
Adjuster said:
Heck, if I was in power, we would have all the hydro power we could build, and Nuke power where that was not enough.

I am in Washington, I like hydro and nuke, I just wish we could improve them a bit more. There is also solar, wind, tidal, wave, gravity, geo thermal, hydrogen and a few others I bet untapped or realized.

Gas would be less expensive, and there would be no scare tactics being thrown around to drive up the price by creating panic where none is needed.

I'd vote for ya on this one.

Welfare would end with workfare.

Make a new thread, It sounds ok..some of it, I like reform better..
(what if you can't work for a time)?

Our enemies would be slaughtered.
I think we are trying...

I'm not saying it would be perfect, but there would be no liberal elite garbage, that's for sure.
You really think that is what I am doing here? :cry:

I like anything fast, and high tech. So, I like these electric cars, but only as amusement. They are not practical at this point, and they are not easy to fuel, operate and there is no established network of servicing them at this time.

Me too..:love: But I think they can be in the city and low range trips.

I have seen a few of them destroyed at the salvage yards, and they have to be plastic wrapped and bio hazard marked to keep people away from the potential acid and other chemical problems from the battery packs. It's bad enough when a normal battery is crushed, and the acid is sprayed all over the vehicle, but there is so much more acid to be spread around when you have 50 batteries v/s just one or two in the general population of cars.
I agree, Maybe we can make non liquid batteries?

As far as burning to death in cars go, most fires are set on purpose. Car's just don't explode into flames like you see in the movies. The fuel tanks are generally located in the center lower part of the car these days, and are made of materials and designed to be pretty rugged. When they are broken open, the fire is intense, but generally brief unless a tire or other parts of the car are caught on fire. (Metal pretty much does not burn, but all the plastic and other flamable stuff sure does.)

Ex-tow truck driver here and I have seen a few people trapped and killed in their cars from fires. So we need to make them all safer.. Thats ok with me..:)


I've seen a prius hit by somthing that pushed the rear body panel into the rear of the front seats. (And that takes the battery pack, and smashes it up against the occupants of the vehicle.) It was a dual fatal, and I don't know if they would have lived anyway or not, but the amount of acid sprayed around was pretty damning and disturbing to me, and I look at fatal crashes all the time at work.

People will always be stupid and crash, Until we make the cars smarter and again safer..

I also worked a claim for a new headlight on a Insight, and the owner who is a professor was complaining that he hardly is able to drive it. The vehicle has been at the dealership with one problem or another from the time he leased it... but he was saying it got 70mpg when it was runnning... (That is a honda I belive.. and one of the first hybrid cars, so perhaps there were some bugs to be worked out.)

Sure there are still some bugs. They will be killed..:icon_razz

Here is what I know.
The technology is expensive. The battery packs only have about a 5 year life span. Then they have to be replaced. The cost is going to be 5,000.00 to 7,000.00 or more. (Including labor, it could reach 10k on some models.)
They get great gas mileage, but when compared to the cost of the gas if you bought the same version of that car, or something the same size, with the same performance, you could buy quite a bit more gas for the difference in the price of the "green" version. (Which is why the hybrids and pure electric cars have to be subsidized by the sales of the other cars, and the makers are only doing this to meet California law, so they can sell more of the normal cars in that huge market...)

So lets try harder.

I think the price will come down over time, but the reality is your always going to pay a premium for the hybrid or electric car over a gas or diesel powered version, and your not going to get your return on investment back anytime soon. (Especially when the batteries start to wear out at 5 to 10k a pop.) OUch! Can you imagine buying a new Honda or Toyota commuter car that needed a new engine every 5 years? It would never sell very well, so the long term effect of hybrids and electric powered cars will be interesting to see as the economic reality comes home in the short term.

I agree it is not perfect but there are many options to run with..

I was excited to see Audi bringing the V10 twin turbo here in the Toureg, but it did not sell very well, and they dropped that engine from the USDM. Only about 500 were sold here. It's a bummer too, it's an awesome engine setup. Tons of tourqe, decient fuel mileage, and since it's turbocharged and diesel, you really have some potential for turning up the boost and getting more tourqe out of that engine.


I think if I had to drive 50 miles to work each way every day, I'd buy a used TDI car from Volkswagen, either in the Jetta, Bug or Golf, and enjoy tinkering with adapting used fry oil to my commuter car. (Not for the environmental aspect, but the smell! Have you smelled one of those cars? It is like going to Mc Donalds, only coming out the tailpipe of your car... LOL)

Add some propane injection, turn up the boost, and after the fry oil is warmed up, look out in the gridlock traffic! LOL

Got any links? I knew you would come to like this thread!!!:icon_razz

We are gear heads, Not gasoline heads...;)
 

Joel W.

Just A Jedi
Nov 7, 2005
1,561
0
0
Washington
Notice the date on this news story guys and I love the headline!!!

Scientists devise scheme to liberate hydrogen to power car.
http://english.people.com.cn/200608/05/eng20060805_290093.html

By reacting water with the element boron, the system produces hydrogen that can be burnt in an internal combustion engine or fed to a fuel cell to generate electricity, the scientists said.

"The aim is to produce hydrogen on-board at a rate matching the demand of the car engine,"

(This will work for internally combustion, battery cars and houses.)

The hydrogen-on-demand approach is based on simple high-school chemistry, according to the scientists who said elements like sodium and potassium are well-known for their violent reactions with water, tearing hydrogen from its stable union with oxygen. Boron does the same, but at a more manageable pace as it requires no special containment because when all the boron is used up, the only by-product, boron oxide, can be removed from the car, turned back into boron, and used again.

To kick-start the reaction, the scientists said, the water has to be supplied as vapor heated to several hundred degrees, so the car will still require some start-up power, possibly from a battery. Once the engine is running, the heat generated by the highly exothermic oxidation reaction between boron and water could be used to warm the incoming water





Bingo!!!! You can keep your supras, your money and

:wavey: to big oil...
 

Joel W.

Just A Jedi
Nov 7, 2005
1,561
0
0
Washington
Whooo hooo.. Look at this date also..
.http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2006/08/07/017478.html

ALGONA, IA - August 7, 2006: Shortly after Hydrogen Engine Center, Inc. formation in June of 2003, naysayers began to cast their doubts about company president Ted Hollinger's vision to create a hydrogen fueled power source using an internal combustion engine. "They all said I was wasting my time, trying to create a 21st century energy solution using forty year old technology that featured an engine design once used in a 1960's vintage pickup truck," said Hollinger.

Last month, on July 17th, it was announced to the world that Ford Motor Company shares a similar vision. On that day, Ford proclaimed that they were developing a hydrogen fueled E-450 bus powered by a 6.8L V-10 engine. "This announcement validates the efforts made by HEC toward the continued development of hydrogen fueled internal combustion engines (HICE)," said Hollinger.

Maybe Ford is not so evil as I once thought!!!
 

Joel W.

Just A Jedi
Nov 7, 2005
1,561
0
0
Washington
Absolutely YES!!! It will take some time to develop the car specific kits, I am sure, but it will happen. Rest assured my friends.. ;)

I assume it will be something like the way IJ's car is designed.

Maybe someone smarter than myself can answer that better!
 

Blksupra1jzed

Member
Nov 1, 2005
153
0
16
Raleigh, NC
Adjuster said:
Here is what I know.
The technology is expensive. The battery packs only have about a 5 year life span. Then they have to be replaced. The cost is going to be 5,000.00 to 7,000.00 or more. (Including labor, it could reach 10k on some models.)
They get great gas mileage, but when compared to the cost of the gas if you bought the same version of that car, or something the same size, with the same performance, you could buy quite a bit more gas for the difference in the price of the "green" version. (Which is why the hybrids and pure electric cars have to be subsidized by the sales of the other cars, and the makers are only doing this to meet California law, so they can sell more of the normal cars in that huge market...)

I don't quite agree there. Look at the x1 in the thread starters post...You do know the costs of the two cars it murdered right? So now the gas burners it demolished are not only more expensive on the first purchase they also burn gas which that little electric car does not. I am all for the electric concept. I could also see them going gel cells like the red top batteries. You can flip that thing upside down and it doesn't leak anything.
 

Joel W.

Just A Jedi
Nov 7, 2005
1,561
0
0
Washington
Blksupra: :)

Edit: Next Car..

Ok here is another one from Ford.

http://www.dominicantoday.com/app/article.aspx?id=5357

BERKELEY, Calif.– No more oil changes. No more pricey gas. No more trips to the service station.

That is, unless your car needs its fuel-cell stack adjusted.

Most drivers would call this crazy talk, but it's the sales pitch for hydrogen-powered cars coming from big carmakers such as General Motors, Honda, Volkswagen, Toyota and Nissan.

From Thursday to Saturday, the companies are driving $1 million-plus prototypes of fuel cell cars, or the "car of the future" as they call it, throughout Northern California, promoting the benefits of fuel cell technology, which, among other things, if widely adopted would remove U.S. dependence on foreign oil.

"The future of transportation is from electric, not combustion. The advantage of that is you get rid of all your shock complaints, throttle response complaints, etcetera. All the manufacturers are betting on some alternative to foreign oil," according to a representative from Nissan's fuel cell technology team.

renderimage.aspx
 

Joel W.

Just A Jedi
Nov 7, 2005
1,561
0
0
Washington
To make this fair, Here is one from GM now. Nice mini van..

http://www.news-journalonline.com/NewsJournalOnline/News/Enviro/envBIZ03ENV072806.htm

Virtually every automaker is conducting tests of hydrogen-powered vehicles, which have received support from a five-year, $1.2 billion hydrogen initiative first announced by President Bush in his 2003 State of the Union address.

The pollution-free technology holds the potential of zero emissions and a sustainable source of energy produced when hydrogen and oxygen are mixed. The vehicles could begin appearing in showrooms by 2020, or even earlier, according to government and industry experts, but many obstacles exist, ranging from high costs and a lack of fueling stations to the need for improved storage capacity and better range.

With the technology still in its early stages, the vehicle testing gives automakers valuable information on their progress based on typical driving experiences. Hydrogen technology can be applied to various forms of transportation, including public buses, delivery vehicles and airport ground-support vehicles. It's also being used to power items such as video cameras, flashlights and other small electronics.

But real world experience is helping to guide its development. From the back of a post office in a Virginia strip mall that includes a barbershop and a coin collector's store, Sisk takes the hydrogen vehicle, based on an Opel Zafira minivan, on his route three days a week.

"It drives like an ordinary car," Sisk said. The vehicle has a range of about 170 miles to 250 miles and a top speed of 99 mph, although Sisk said it's "not as fast on takeoffs" compared to a conventional vehicle.

I believe post 28 will fix that take off problem.

GM's "Hydrogen 3," a compact minivan that seats five, operates on liquid and compressed hydrogen. It can store the hydrogen at up to 10,000 PSI; and at that pressure, it is a liquid that can power the vehicle for 250 miles.

"I drive an (Honda) Accord hybrid. There's absolutely no difference," Spano said. "It's quiet. It's quick. We really haven't had any complaints."

In April, the U.S. military began testing GM's modified fuel-cell Chevrolet Silverado, which can generate 188 kilowatts and 317 foot-pounds of torque, about the same motor torque generated by GM's 5.3 liter V-8 engine.
 

Blksupra1jzed

Member
Nov 1, 2005
153
0
16
Raleigh, NC
Joel W. said:
To make this fair, Here is one from GM now. Nice mini van..

http://www.news-journalonline.com/NewsJournalOnline/News/Enviro/envBIZ03ENV072806.htm

Virtually every automaker is conducting tests of hydrogen-powered vehicles, which have received support from a five-year, $1.2 billion hydrogen initiative first announced by President Bush in his 2003 State of the Union address.

The pollution-free technology holds the potential of zero emissions and a sustainable source of energy produced when hydrogen and oxygen are mixed. The vehicles could begin appearing in showrooms by 2020, or even earlier, according to government and industry experts, but many obstacles exist, ranging from high costs and a lack of fueling stations to the need for improved storage capacity and better range.

With the technology still in its early stages, the vehicle testing gives automakers valuable information on their progress based on typical driving experiences. Hydrogen technology can be applied to various forms of transportation, including public buses, delivery vehicles and airport ground-support vehicles. It's also being used to power items such as video cameras, flashlights and other small electronics.

But real world experience is helping to guide its development. From the back of a post office in a Virginia strip mall that includes a barbershop and a coin collector's store, Sisk takes the hydrogen vehicle, based on an Opel Zafira minivan, on his route three days a week.

"It drives like an ordinary car," Sisk said. The vehicle has a range of about 170 miles to 250 miles and a top speed of 99 mph, although Sisk said it's "not as fast on takeoffs" compared to a conventional vehicle.

I believe post 28 will fix that take off problem.

GM's "Hydrogen 3," a compact minivan that seats five, operates on liquid and compressed hydrogen. It can store the hydrogen at up to 10,000 PSI; and at that pressure, it is a liquid that can power the vehicle for 250 miles.

"I drive an (Honda) Accord hybrid. There's absolutely no difference," Spano said. "It's quiet. It's quick. We really haven't had any complaints."


My only statement there was for the "pro gas" dude...that electric car was leagues ahead of any gas car. For performance that is. Even if it isn't production, the cost of making the X1 out of the ariel was WAY cheaper than what it would take to buy a car that could keep up. Maybe something like that reasonably priced Enzo could do the trick lol. So lets say you have a horrible run of luck and have to replace batteries 10x a year, it would still take you a long long time to make up the cost of a car that could compare to the performance of the X1.

Now, I really like hybrid concepts...of any kind. He was stuck on pollution...a hybrid car running right next to a standard gas car is going to produce ALOT less polution. Now what I like about any of the concepts is it reduces the demand for oil. As that demand goes down the price will eventually follow and for those who don't want a hybrid, electric, etc...will benefit anyways. So he should at least be supporting them because in the future their exhistance will benefit him greatly and make running a gas car that he believes in the end pollutes less anyways, more afforable.
 

Joel W.

Just A Jedi
Nov 7, 2005
1,561
0
0
Washington
Blksupra: Ohh I know bud.. :) +1

I was thanking you, >>>> Blksupra: :) <<<<<< and moving on, not disputing you.. ;)

SAN FRANCISCO (Business 2.0 Magazine) - Ian Wright has a car that blows away a Ferrari 360 Spider and a Porsche Carrera GT in drag races, and whose 0-to-60 acceleration time ranks it among the fastest production autos in the world. In fact, it's second only to the French-made Bugatti Veyron, a 1,000-horsepower, 16-cylinder beast that hits 60 mph half a second faster and goes for $1.25 million.

The key difference? The Bugatti gets eight miles per gallon. Wright's car? It runs off an electric battery.

The X1 recently challenged -- and beat -- the Ferrari 360 Spyder (in red) at the Infineon Raceway in northern California.

Wright, a 50-year-old entrepreneur from New Zealand, thinks his electric car, the X1, can soon be made into a small-production roadster that car fanatics and weekend warriors will happily take home for about $100,000 - a quarter ton of batteries included. He has even launched a startup, called Wrightspeed, to custom-make and sell the cars.
 

Joel W.

Just A Jedi
Nov 7, 2005
1,561
0
0
Washington
thesandymancan said:
i rather have a supercharged ariel atom. it's not enviroment friendly but it would be fun! you wouldn't have that car fir a daily driver anyway.

Why exactly would you want to keep gasoline?

Do you commute more than 150 miles per day?

Also: Infineon Raceway is a Grand Prix track, not a 1/4 mile track so you guys know, It still whooped the gas Ferrari's ass!