What Synthetic should I use?

[jdub]

Castrol European Formula (German Castrol) 0W-30 - Get this at AutoZone
Pennzoil Platinum 5W-30
Amsoil Signature Series (SSO) 0W-30
Amsoil Synthetic (ASL) 5W-30

 

[quake]

theory is great and works well in most situations but in the case of the 7m. Put it this way the car is stock and we mod it. We make changes based upon what we know works because we have tested it. Lots of people crying about rod knock maybe you ran low on oil, maybe you were detonating and did not know. Maybe, maybe, maybe.... First rule of thumb when dealing with a blown motor is to know exactly why it blew before you fix or install the new one.

Now i agree 80% of mkiii owners need to stick with 10w-30. It will provide the best all around protection for what you are doing. Now if you run the motor and tear it down to inspect and make changes that is another story. This gives you the room to make changes and see the differences. I followed the rule of thumb and i will tell you first hand your bearings don't like 400rwhp and .0015 clearence and 10w-30.

Been working on cars for quite some time now and have seen my share of blown motors i've also blown my share of motors on purpose to see what could be done and what can't. As for mileage if you have it great nice af's on light load will help but you bought a sports car so don't cry about the gas i don't even look at the price anymore i just buy it- if the car is on e what are you going to do walk? Or will you drive another mile to save .50cents on a full tank..

 

[jdub]

Very nice...but, didn't answer the question. What did you do to prep the motor to run honey for oil?

Rod Knock? No theories here...two reasons account for 90% of them IMO:
- BHG, followed by running the motor with coolant in the oil
- Running the engine low on oil

0.0015" is at mid spec on the rod clearances...are you saying the motor can't handle 400 HP on the oil Toyota designed it for? Give me your take on how a hydrostatic bearing that's getting proper flow can contact the journal surface considering liquids cannot be compressed, regardless of viscosity. While your at it, an explanation of how a 50W oil protects bearings better than a 30W would (both cold and at ops temp) and help my feeble understanding of how a hydrostatic bearing works.

I'll be honest with you...some of the most outrageous things I've heard about motor oil have come from experienced "certified mechanics". I'm not knocking anyone's ability or experience here, but most "oil myths" have this group as its source and it simply doesn't hold to the fluid dynamics and mechanical engineering involved. You can call it what you want, but this is not "theory".

 

[suprarich]

How much are you guys paying for Redline? I don't understand all the talk about using another oil, just because the one you really want, is too expensive. It is about 40 bucks to fill a 7m with Redline. The difference between Redline, and the next best, can not be more than the cost of a bag of chips and a gallon or two of gas.

 

[Nick M]

Redline's actually red? Haha weird, we don't have any of their engine oil around here... just their gear oil and water wetter. Where do you order/buy your Redline from?

Oil in the can is whatever color they died it after refining. It is clear after refining until colored for public consumption. It makes the masses feel better.

Your "friend" must not know how an open bearing (like the ones on a crank) actually work. If he did, he would know that oil flow through the bearings provide better cooling and hydrostatic separation of the bearing surfaces than the boundary layer lubrication afforded by a thick oil. Not to mention the cold flow characteristics of a thick oil resemble honey...good thing you live in a warm climate. He would also know that the greater the viscosity spread on a multigrade oil, the greater the volume of Viscosity Index Improvers (VII'S) required to maintain that SAE grade...thus reducing the amount of actual oil (by volume) there is in the bottle.

Almost forgot...the big marketing push on Eneos is all that extra HP you'll gain by using their oil. If you beleive that one, I've got a bridge up in San Francisco I'd like to sell ya...cheap

But...what do I know :dunno:
Our friends and the local mechanic always knows whats best

I will see if I can round up that article from physics web about oil thickness and protection. Perhaps it will validate Jdubs articles on lubricants. He is correct.

 

[Nick M]

Too easy.

http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/print/5020

 

[quake]

Very nice...but, didn't answer the question. What did you do to prep the motor to run honey for oil?

Rod Knock? No theories here...two reasons account for 90% of them IMO:
- BHG, followed by running the motor with coolant in the oil
- Running the engine low on oil

0.0015" is at mid spec on the rod clearances...are you saying the motor can't handle 400 HP on the oil Toyota designed it for? Give me your take on how a hydrostatic bearing that's getting proper flow can contact the journal surface considering liquids cannot be compressed, regardless of viscosity. While your at it, an explanation of how a 50W oil protects bearings better than a 30W would (both cold and at ops temp) and help my feeble understanding of how a hydrostatic bearing works.

I'll be honest with you...some of the most outrageous things I've heard about motor oil have come from experienced "certified mechanics". I'm not knocking anyone's ability or experience here, but most "oil myths" have this group as its source and it simply doesn't hold to the fluid dynamics and mechanical engineering involved. You can call it what you want, but this is not "theory".

i'm saying the motor don't like 400WHP and a 30w oil can you run it sure have you torn down a motor after doing so? I'm not suggesting anyone here do the same as me all i can tell you is what i have seen. Bearing clearences need to be opened up for the thrust loads that will be placed on them from this in line 6cyl motor with plenty of crank flex at that power level and unless you want .0028 with a 5w-30 protecting your investment u will need to fill that void. I did plenty of research before opening up the stock specs and went with a combination suggestions from various hp engine builders including sound performance, titan, and our master tech who runs a 8 second mustang. I have had a personal hand in building plenty of motors many are using 15w-50 shell rotella these include pulling motors another is a camaro making 650crank hp and we then ran a 200shot on top of thatfor a hard pull from 60 to 200mph trust me it took alot of playing around with specs on a 9.0l 540ci big block to see good bearing wear under that kind of load. Now being present to tear down and see what happens to bearings in these motors is a real asset to me. Why else would i tear down a perfectly running built motor with 12k on it to see whats really going on. It takes me about 3-4hrs to pull and tear down my motor at work so i did. It took me a week to decide on what piston to wall clearance to use on my forged pistons and that worked out too. Everything is a compromise run my pistons loose and create a bit more wear and blow by or run a 30min session road racing and lock one up. Ill take the first choice but i have access to equipment that most don't so i take advantage of it. I'll give my motor 20k then tear it down and freshen up if i have a problem before that ill post and let you all know.

Now by no means am i a lube expert but i have seen what works and i will get the correct combo for my car and the way i drive it.

 

[jdub]

Quake - there's lots of ways to crack a nut

What I understand your saying here is you've opened up your bearing clearances to handle the 50W...this is one of the very few times you will hear me say a thicker oil is more appropriate, but you better have the rest of the oil system built to handle it as well. For example:
- Shim the relief valve on the pump to increase pressure...about 5mm should be enough
- Dump the stock filter head (and it's relief valve) and run a full flow cooler/remote filter circuit
- AN-10 lines for everything outside the block
- An Accusump accumulator for pre-start oiling and to prevent pressure from ever dropping below 25 psi
- Running the motor when it's cold outside is not a good idea

There are very few people I know of that have opened up their bearing clearances and went to the effort to do the rest of the above. Folks that do this should also point out what else they have done to accommodate the thick oil...to just say "I run 20w-50 but then again I built the motor for it and I drive it hard as hell." is misleading and may cause someone who has not gone through the effort to believe you should run a thick oil in a basically stock or mildly upgraded motor...not true.

And yes, I have pulled several motors apart (none w/ rod knock) that's seen nothing but 5W or 10W-30 their whole life...the bearings had minimal wear. BTW, I know of a guy that's running 0W and 5W-30 in his Ferrari Enzo (Factory spec - 10W60 Shell Helix Ultra) and a Lamborghini Murcielago (Factory spec - Agip 5W40). This "crazy" individual has gone as far to put a 5W-20 in these cars (gasp!). He's achieved excellent results in cars that make a puny 7M look like a toy...he's the same guy that wrote Motor Oil 101 (the link in my sig)

I would still run a 5W or 10W-40 vs the 50W multigrades even after doing all of the above.

BTW - Rotella comes in two flavors to my knowledge...15W-40 and synthetic 5W-40. It is a popular oil with the Chevy crowd, it contains a healthy dose of ZDDP which is a requirement to run flat tappet cams. Rotella is an excellent oil...I run it in my diesel Excursion. Take a look at Delo 5W-40...a bit thicker than Rotella at ops temp, but flows better than 20W-50. It should give you the results you seek.

 

[IwantMKIII]

Here's a question....what oils should you STAY AWAY from. Obviously the 20w-50 thing has been beatin to death in general. Please give weight range and make/manufacturer

 

[Kangae]

Heh, nevermind jdub already beat me to it.

 

[jdub]

Here's a question....what oils should you STAY AWAY from. Obviously the 20w-50 thing has been beatin to death in general. Please give weight range and make/manufacturer

ANY straight weight oil, except a 30W for initial break-in.
Mobil 1, because Exxon is a skum sucking, lying, greedy bunch of bastards

 

[fiyota]

I've always run GC 0w30 (actually got a couple cases of the true green stuff), ever since this motor has been in my possession (about 3,500km after rebuild, and was run on 10w30 RP after break in)... No issues at all, always had within spec oil pressure and no abnormal noises have started (I do drive the motor hard, it has around 25k km on it now since last august, for a total of around 28-30k km on the engine, and it was parked all winter)... So the motor has seen quite a few oil changes.

Now, I have a question for you, I have been reading about others running an extra liter over the dip stick reading full... I've read about them doing this on all sorts of setups, on completely stock oil systems, to full aftermarket relocation + filters... Based on others results and experiences with this I decided to try it on my last few oil changes...

What I would like to know is, what are your opinions of this? On a stock oil system, with a standard wix filter in the stock location, would you run an extra liter over the full? And would you add the extra liter above the full mark before or after the filter has had a chance to be filled?

 

[jdub]

I always run a quart (liter) over the full mark shown on the dipstick. This is after the filter has a chance to fill. Excellent "insurance' from ever getting low and/or uncovering the pick-up due to slosh. There is no downside to doing it either.

 

[fiyota]

I always run a quart (liter) over the full mark shown on the dipstick. This is after the filter has a chance to fill. Excellent "insurance' from ever getting low and/or uncovering the pick-up due to slosh. There is no downside to doing it either.

This is what I have been reading about, that there is no downside to doing this. I was curious why, if there is no ill effects, would Toyota not just make the recommended fill capacity 1 liter more?

Now, what I have read is that there is room enough in the pan to hold an extra liter without the crank touching the oil, but does it have any affect on crank case pressure? This is what everyone is telling me to worry about when I run the extra liter/quart, but I am not quite sure how it is affecting the pressure inside engine, wouldn't a properly working pcv system / catch can take care of this if it were the case?

 

[jdub]

The fill recommended by Toyota is adequate. Unfortunately, we as enthusiasts, do things with a touring car that wasn't really in the design equation for it. Take a look at the Group A pan, does it look like it has a bit more capacity?

You would have to add several quarts before you'd get anywhere near the crank. And, you are correct, the PCV system is more than adequate to handle the miniscule loss of crankcase volume due to adding another quart.

 

[fiyota]

Hehe, yes I know about the group A pan, and would love a copy of it for myself!

Ah, so I am glad I have been following the advice of the experts here on SM, never led me wrong in the past which is why I tried the extra quart thing for myself. I had thought about it after reading up on it, and when you spread 1 quart over the size of the pan it really doesn't increase the overall amount of oil in the pan (depth wise) much at all...

With the better brakes, coilovers, very sticky tires, and planned power goals It's good to know that my oil system won't let up on my under the g forces it will be experiencing.

*I'd still feel safer with group a pan...*

 

[deabionni]

One quick question:

After doing a bit of researching, I'm running GC in my engine. My question is, how many miles can you run GC between oil changes; and at what point do you spin a fresh filter on between changes?

 

[quake]

Quake - there's lots of ways to crack a nut

What I understand your saying here is you've opened up your bearing clearances to handle the 50W...this is one of the very few times you will hear me say a thicker oil is more appropriate, but you better have the rest of the oil system built to handle it as well. For example:
- Shim the relief valve on the pump to increase pressure...about 5mm should be enough
- Dump the stock filter head (and it's relief valve) and run a full flow cooler/remote filter circuit
- AN-10 lines for everything outside the block
- An Accusump accumulator for pre-start oiling and to prevent pressure from ever dropping below 25 psi
- Running the motor when it's cold outside is not a good idea

There are very few people I know of that have opened up their bearing clearances and went to the effort to do the rest of the above. Folks that do this should also point out what else they have done to accommodate the thick oil...to just say "I run 20w-50 but then again I built the motor for it and I drive it hard as hell." is misleading and may cause someone who has not gone through the effort to believe you should run a thick oil in a basically stock or mildly upgraded motor...not true.

And yes, I have pulled several motors apart (none w/ rod knock) that's seen nothing but 5W or 10W-30 their whole life...the bearings had minimal wear. BTW, I know of a guy that's running 0W and 5W-30 in his Ferrari Enzo (Factory spec - 10W60 Shell Helix Ultra) and a Lamborghini Murcielago (Factory spec - Agip 5W40). This "crazy" individual has gone as far to put a 5W-20 in these cars (gasp!). He's achieved excellent results in cars that make a puny 7M look like a toy...he's the same guy that wrote Motor Oil 101 (the link in my sig)

I would still run a 5W or 10W-40 vs the 50W multigrades even after doing all of the above.

BTW - Rotella comes in two flavors to my knowledge...15W-40 and synthetic 5W-40. It is a popular oil with the Chevy crowd, it contains a healthy dose of ZDDP which is a requirement to run flat tappet cams. Rotella is an excellent oil...I run it in my diesel Excursion. Take a look at Delo 5W-40...a bit thicker than Rotella at ops temp, but flows better than 20W-50. It should give you the results you seek.

i have all those mods done and then some i did not want people to go out and just pour in 20w-50 and hope for the best. This car will see lots of road course abuse and i have a spare block sitting in my bay to show my humility, when i did my tear down i did not like the look of my bearings. So i changed things a bit what i did was open up the rods but keep the mains a bit tighter to keep a pretty good pressure but nothing excessive so far. Cold the oil press is in the 60's with royal purple didn't want a snake oil either, i just wanted a true syn based on your info. Lol pouring the stuff in looked like gear oil and i did not like that i actually wanted 15w-40 from them but in the camaro we did have it drop pressure on the track after 20 hard mins with mobil 1. I agree fully with what you suggest for most engines here. I also opened up the small end of the rods a bit and the thrust surface of the big end to control the flow through the rods.

 

[jdub]

One quick question:

After doing a bit of researching, I'm running GC in my engine. My question is, how many miles can you run GC between oil changes; and at what point do you spin a fresh filter on between changes?

That depends on the condition of the motor and the use of the car (track time?), but if it's good and you're not too hard on it, you can go 8K on GC easy with a filter change at the 4K point. Just add make-up oil at the filter change. I would recommend a UOA...it will tell you if you have coolant in the oil or fuel dilution. That will greatly affect when you change it.

 

[jdub]

Quake - I'm not as concerned with your oil at ops temp vs what it's doing at start-up (cold). One of the dangers of running a thick oil is cavitation at the pump...especially cold. RP 20W-50 is one of the thickest 50W oils out there, especially at temps below 40 deg C. If you don't want to use the Delo suggested above, consider Red Line 15W-50 or Amsoil Series 2000 (TRO) 20W-50...both have considerably lower viscosities at 40 deg C. The Red Line's viscosity is 19.6 cst and Amsoil is 18.3 cst at 100 deg C vs RP's 20.2 cst at the same temp...the differences here are negligible. Duane is running this Amsoil oil in a set-up with clearances and oil system (at 850 HP+) very much like what you're doing with great success.