What should we do about the war in Iraq Poll

[Joel W.]

With all the talk on the news, I am wondering what you people think we shoud do about the war in Iraq, not the war on Terror. Everyone is welcome to vote no matter where in the world you live.

Bush said last monday on TV that "We will never leave Iraq as long as I am President..." This worries me a bit. So I made this poll but I want you guys to read the next few paragraphs with a few quotes from James Madison before you vote. The poll is anonymous, but your welcome to explain why you voted if you choose. (you do not have to participate if you do not wish) Please remember that our soldiers follow the orders and war is not the soldiers fault. Ok..

Using armies for tyranny

Historically, governments had misused standing armies in two ways, both of which ultimately subjected the citizenry to tyranny. One was to engage in faraway wars, which inevitably entailed enormous expenditures, enabling the government to place ever-increasing tax burdens on the people. Such wars also inevitably entailed “patriotic” calls for blind allegiance to the government so long as the war was being waged. Consider, for example, the immortal words of James Madison, who is commonly referred to as “the father of the Constitution”:

Of all the enemies to public liberty war is, perhaps, the most to be dreaded, because it comprises and develops the germ of every other. War is the parent of armies; from these proceed debts and taxes; and armies, and debts, and taxes are the known instruments for bringing the many under the domination of the few. In war, too, the discretionary power of the Executive is extended; its influence in dealing out offices, honors, and emoluments is multiplied; and all the means of seducing the minds, are added to those of subduing the force, of the people.... [There is also an] inequality of fortunes, and the opportunities of fraud, growing out of a state of war, and ... degeneracy of manners and of morals.... No nation could preserve its freedom in the midst of continual warfare.

​

The second way to use a standing army to impose tyranny was the direct one — the use of troops to establish order and obedience among the citizenry. Ordinarily, if a government has no huge standing army at its disposal, many people will choose to violate immoral laws that always come with a tyrannical regime; that is, they engage in what is commonly known as “civil disobedience” — the disobedience to immoral laws. But as the Chinese people discovered at Tiananmen Square, when the government has a standing army to enforce its will, civil disobedience becomes much more problematic.


Consider again the words of Madison:

A standing military force, with an overgrown Executive will not long be safe companions to liberty. The means of defence agst. foreign danger, have been always the instruments of tyranny at home. Among the Romans it was a standing maxim to excite a war, whenever a revolt was apprehended. Throughout all Europe, the armies kept up under the pretext of defending, have enslaved the people.

​

The idea is that governments use their armies to produce the enemies, then scare the people with cries that the barbarians are at the gates, and then claim that war is necessary to put down the barbarians. With all this, needless to say, comes increased governmental power over the people.

Sound familiar?

Source: Link

 

[SupraDerk]

There's no poll

 

[JustAnotherVictim]

If we don't make sure it's stable enough for them to support themselves we might as well have not gone at all. Finish up and get the hell out.
We're still being too nice and just need to go kick some ass instead of worrying about what everyone else thinks. We look weak already since we've let soo many things slide.
I wish our troops weren't there but at this point we need to take care of it. It will never be perfect, it is the Middle East after all but once Iraq can handle itself we need to leave.

 

[Joel W.]

I was making it, sorry..

 

[MDCmotorsports]

Unfortunately, stability is futile in that part of the world. For generations, all that those people have known is war and killing.

I understand that President Bush is between a rock and a hard spot:

-Stay and get booed by the American people, not to mention more deaths of American Troops
OR
-Leave and basically let every thing go to hell. All those American servicemens' lives would be for not.

I say, we need to start pulling out now. Since the UN was the biggest screamer for attention when Saddam was in power, I say let them be the cleanup crew.

 

[SupraDerk]

Haha ok, well I voted that we need to stay there as long as it takes. It's about time that we actually win a war. I'm tired of hearing about how WWII vets are from the greatest generation because they defeated fascism around the world. They are AWESOME, don't get me wrong, but politicians and the media have drug our militaries credibility and the credibility of our country through the mud since then. I feel so bad for Vietnam vets and for those that have fought in Desert Storm and the Iraq War that have to come home to such a divided nation.

I go to a VERY liberal school, and when I have to walk around on campus in uniform I sometimes hear people say stuff like "baby killer" or "war monger". And I think this is the result of our media and our government, both very much self serving. I already think that we're heading down the road of reform, the split in our country is just growing and growing and eventually something is gonna give. But I think if we stay in Iraq, and actually move to destroy (yes DESTROY) our enemies completely, then we can help the Iraqis rebuild their country from the ground up. Give them a clean slate instead of trying to fix something that's obviously contaminated.

Then we could actually claim victory in something and move ourselves torwards feelings of national pride. I hate watching the news and seeing America haters talk about how we're the plague of the world and how we're the real terrorist. We're percieved that way, and in some cases corrupt and evil because of these same self serving pricks that somehow get a position of power and exploit it.

Haha, anyways, I've rambled but I don't think I neccessarily answered anything. Ah well...stay in Iraq and complete the task is my vote.

 

[wingman]

i sense another decent thread going down the crapper...


but in all honesty what government wants control to be in the people's hands? Putting control in the people's hands means anarchy, really...because when most people know they can get away with something they do it. The world is the way it is because of the influence a few idiotic incidents can produce with a little bit of acting via. the media. Gun control is a perfect example of this, and the media does nothing but over-inflate every last incident.

I myself think over-fanatical patriotism is a huge reason behind a lot of the regulations imposed on us today. It's cool to love your country, but don't let them spoon feed you everything like it's the absolute truth and any skepticism makes you a communist/terrorist/evil bastard...politicians are the masters of spoon feeding BS to people, all that matters is how many people each one can feed.


...and to be perfectly honest, anarchy isn't such a bad idea. Gay marraige and the middle east will be the least of your worries when natural selection is hunting you down! :biglaugh:

 

[87CandyBlueT]

I disagree. Sorry to offend anyone. I do not think we should be at War and I see it as an Ironic move. New Orleans was almost completely destroyed and it took over 3 days for help/rescue, government services to get there. Look at all the lives lost in this War. I do not see any accomplishment. As for Bush. After 9/11 he said the plan was to secure our country. What would we do if a decent size terrorist attack hit us at home now(U.S.) What would we do? How many times is the plan of this War changed? Looking for WMD's, looking for Saddam, then they decide well were going to 'make' this country be a democracy.

I support our troops. But I support them all the time, not just when we're at War. To many lives have been lost(2 friends that just joined the service less than a year ago.)

I just feel that the War took us in the opposite direction. I feel that we are more vulnerable to any attack right now then we ever were.


Please don't take offense as this is a touchy subject to most and I debated to comment. Just my $ .02

Curious to hear what others have to say. I hope the War ends soon, but thats not going to happen, just Bring our Troops home safe to their loved ones.

 

[Joel W.]

Try and reverse the situation and think how you might feel if this or your country had an occupied force knocking at your doorstep. I would be upset also..

Who are we really fighting there? I do not see soldiers in uniform fighting us, I see mad civilians pissed off that we are still there. Maybe I am wrong?

I am not trying to start crap thread, I just want to see what people HERE think..

 

[JustAnotherVictim]

I still think we went there for a mix of the control oil and Saddam.
It's just stupid we always think we have to police the world. We stepped in a big pile of shit and need climb out as quickly as possible.

 

[87CandyBlueT]

IMO: Pulling out would not look cowardly and anyway it's what we do. It's my belief that the Wars we have "lost" pulled out of were because they should of never happened. Weren't we looking for Osama? Why did we suddenly pull out from that? When Osama had taken responsibility for 9/11? We have not found anything to be a threat to us in Iraq. I also believe terrorism will never be destroyed. Whats the toll of our Deficit now? I believe when Clinton left office he had just gotten rid of our deficit. We needed a boost in the economy after 9/11 not a Billion+ Deficit.

 

[SupraDerk]

I would be upset also if an occupying force were at our footstep...but I also know that their is a force growing around that world that wants us...all of us dead. And I also know that Iraq was part of this. Saddam Hussein lied to all of our faces, saying he felt bad for the attacks of 9/11 and then come to find out the bastard was paying money to terrorist. I think the world is at a junction right now and a decision needs to be made. We try to exercise compassion and looking at the picture from both sides in the west, but the reality of the coming situation is that a large region of the world is growing to have one thing on the mind, and that's a world without us.

I for one am willing to die as long as we keep pushing to keep ourselves free of waking up to bombings, an occupying force maybe like the nazis or who knows what else. Do you think that if we left them alone, and they all rallied together and came over hear and overthrew our government that they would let us all live in peace under them? I'm pretty sure they'd go about killing us all.

It just seems to me that people don't want to accept that there's some kind of threat in the world and want to believe that we're in the wrong. But I truly believe what Bush did was right. I just wish that our politicians didn't make decisions based on what makes them the most popular, but on what is right. If we had gone in from the start and just fought balls to the wall against Al Qaeda and the Iraqi government and just got rid of them all. I think we'd be in a lot better place than where we are.

I would just hate to see us pull out and run away like we always do, to see our crediblility go down the drain and to see the anger of the world grow even more against us.

Just my $.02

 

[87CandyBlueT]

If you want to destroy Iraq you don't need armed forces. Just build several Wal-marts they'll eventually take over.

 

[Joel W.]

Saddam Hussein lied to all of our faces, saying he felt bad for the attacks of 9/11 and then come to find out the bastard was paying money to terrorist

Did he? President Bush flatly acknowledged that there was no link between Saddam Hussein and 9/11, We were there under the pretense that he had WMD's and none have been recovered.

Saddam attacked Kuwait in the 90's and we fixed that. This time he did nothing to us and yet we attacked him. He was writing novels and keeping the peace there. (yeah that means killing some of his own people) Saddam and UBL do not like each other.

 

[Yellow 13]

I wanna hear what amd_hcs has to say.

 

[jdub]

A couple of points to ponder:

- What we see and hear in the US is what the media wants to show us and that is determined by the people at the news service. Depending on their agenda (and what sells news)...we see killing, protestors, and what looks like set back after set back. I know for a fact there is a lot of good being done in Iraq...schools being built, services restored...but you don't hear of the success. I question why? Politics? Money? I don't know, but I do know the whole story is not being told in the US media.

- Every Islamic Fascist on the planet is flocking to Iraq to fight the "Great Satan" and unfortunately, American soldiers are taking the hits. But, there is a flip side...these muahedeen are fighting highly trained soldiers...likely the best in the world. And our soldiers are helping these Islamic Fascist's to go see Allah. Make no mistake...if these Islamic fighters didn't have Iraq to fight Americans, we would have a major problem here in the US. I'd much rather having these idiots fighting highly trained soldiers than inflicting damage on our civilian population here.

- The Islamic sects are killing each other...why? It's about power. The Islamic Fascist's want total control and impose the most strict version of Islam that exists. We cannot allow this to happen...look at the last time fascism took hold in Europe. Were they happy to leave the rest of us alone? No, we were plunged into a world war that killed tens of millions. Imagine the Islamic Fascist's getting access to a nuke...don't think they would use it? There's a lot of people (and just not in the US) that needs to put down what they're smoking and see what's happening.

- Regardless of what the media says, oil is in our national interest...period. Until some other reliable energy source is developed, oil will remain in our national interest. It's not just us either...China, Japan, Europe, just about every major, developed country has oil as a national interest. And there are many different ways to protect that interest. Lately (for the US), it's been a military solution...but, did you know China is buying up oil supplies all over the world? So is Japan. Russia and France have oil companies on the ground in Iran...sanctions for nukes? Think about it.

Rambled enough...this is not a simple question. My vote was to do what it takes in Iraq.

 

[wingman]

i just came up with this great idea to reduce the number of nuclear weapons we have stockpiled!


solve all the problems in the middle east, reduce the number of nukes we have, and lower the population in china ALL AT THE SAME TIME! It's brilliant, the world would thank us....i think.

 

[SupraDerk]

Did he? President Bush flatly acknowledged that there was no link between Saddam Hussein and 9/11, We were there under the pretense that he had WMD's and none have been recovered.

Saddam attacked Kwait in the 90's and we fixed that. This time he did nothing to us and yet we attacked him. He was writing novels and keeping the peace there. (yeah that means killing some of his own people) Saddam and UBL do not like each other.

I didn't say he had direct links to 9/11, but I do remember seeing his ass on tv condeming those who made the attacks and then finding out later he had paid TERRORIST money and their familiies

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,48822,00.html

http://www.husseinandterror.com/

 

[IJ.]

Where is the choice for "give each side LOT of weapons let them sort it out then walk in and take the Oil when they're done" ?

 

[Joel W.]

Derk: I can not find the report that Saddam paid 25k for bombings on any other news site but Fox News, just so you know. Did you goto Fox News to find it, because it's not even found on Fox News from Google News like most Fox News stories?

IJ.: I can add it if you want? What sides do you want to arm?

I can't figure out how to edit a poll?