What should we do about the war in Iraq Poll

[SP 7M]

I know this is a very sensitive subject and I thank you all for keeping your cool here..

Don't push it. :biglaugh:

 

[Joel W.]

I will try not to here.

 

[drunk_medic]

Weren't we looking for Osama? Why did we suddenly pull out from that? When Osama had taken responsibility for 9/11?

We still ARE looking for him. We NEVER pulled out from that - you are just uninformed. Just because you don't hear about him on the news everyday like you do Iraq does NOT mean that people are not fighting and dying to rid the middle east of Taliban and Al Qaeda.

Trust me. It's happening. I'm part of it, living it right now, and we ARE making progress, no matter how little the media cares about it. You don't hear about the amount of bloodshed on this side of the war on terror as you do in Iraq, so naturally the media would rather flock there because it's more "hard-hitting" or whatever the f*ck they call it. Unfortunately it's just not interesting enough for the 6 O'Clock unless people are dying in record numbers, the President is doing something that someone doesn't/won't like, or some atrocity is happening to women and children.

 

[SP 7M]

IMO: Pulling out would not look cowardly and anyway it's what we do. It's my belief that the Wars we have "lost" pulled out of were because they should of never happened. Weren't we looking for Osama? Why did we suddenly pull out from that? When Osama had taken responsibility for 9/11? We have not found anything to be a threat to us in Iraq. I also believe terrorism will never be destroyed. Whats the toll of our Deficit now? I believe when Clinton left office he had just gotten rid of our deficit. We needed a boost in the economy after 9/11 not a Billion+ Deficit.

Holy shit, man, where the hell do you get your "news"?

Pulling out may not seem cowardly to you, however, if we don't actually follow through with what we said we will, we'll look like cowards. That is a cowardly move, plain and simple.

And what wars have we "lost"? Vietnam was no flat-out victory, but certainly not a loss.

Thank you for bringing up Clinton before I did, too. Remember when he was offered Osama on more than one occasion? Of course not.

 

[OneJoeZee]

I bet no one's girlfriend thought they were cowards when they pulled out. :biglaugh:

 

[rakkasan]

I say make a decision & commit to it.

If we are to stay, take the gloves of & pound the ever loving shit out of anyone in possession of a weapon. If I were the President, I'd make a statement to the world that, regardless of the public outcry, we are there to win. Send in a few more Divisions and wipe the place clean.

However, if it is determined that the people of Iraq are not determined to take over the fight, pull out now. We have done 10 times what we should have done. If the people of Iraq want to be oppressed for the rest of their lives, how do you make them not want to be? You can't, and from the looks of things, they don't want to be free. Again, if I was President, I'd announce to the people of Iraq that they have 1 more year to get their shit together.

 

[SupraDerk]

The sooner we all realize the people in the Middle East do not think like we do...the better we will all understand and see what's happening.

EXACTLY!

 

[Doward]

Yep. They don't think like we do in the West.

Did Iraq ever ask us to come wipe out Saddam?

I want that question answered.

 

[jdub]

Yep. They don't think like we do in the West.

Did Iraq ever ask us to come wipe out Saddam?

I want that question answered.

The Kurds (Northern Iraq) did...Saddam gassed them, killing thousands. The people in Southern Iraq did...Saddam drained the marshes removing their living and starving thousands. Just a couple of examples of what happen if you crossed Saddam...asking for help meant you died.

 

[JustAnotherVictim]

The Kurds (Northern Iraq) did...Saddam gassed them, killing thousands. The people in Southern Iraq did...Saddam drained the marshes removing their living and starving thousands. Just a couple of examples of what happen if you crossed Saddam...asking for help meant you died.

That's what I heard, what I'd like to know is if the people of Iraq actually are supporting our soldiers who came and helped them out or trashing them. It would be nice not to have to hear the news slant all the time.

 

[rakkasan]

Yep. They don't think like we do in the West.

Did Iraq ever ask us to come wipe out Saddam?

I want that question answered.

Yes, they did. I personally was asked several times.

 

[jdub]

That's what I heard, what I'd like to know is if the people of Iraq actually are supporting our soldiers who came and helped them out or trashing them. It would be nice not to have to hear the news slant all the time.

Oh it's true alright...after the 1991 war, we pulled out and Saddam immediately suppressed any support we garnered from the people. Basically we screwed them...one of the worst mistakes we have ever made in the Middle East IMO. And now we wonder why the moderate Iraqi's don't trust us?

I've seen hundreds of examples where the US is helping these people...the problem is the insurgents. We try to do good and they kill the people we help...same tactic Saddam used. We're making headway, but the cultural differences is working against us. The Iraqi's are a pragmatic people though...the Sunni's are scared to death the Shiite's will take total control. That's why the Sunni's have asked us to stay.

 

[Joel W.]

the problem is the insurgents. We try to do good and they kill the people we help...same tactic Saddam used. We're making headway, but the cultural differences is working against us. The Iraqi's are a pragmatic people though...the Sunni's are scared to death the Shiite's will take total control. That's why the Sunni's have asked us to stay.

I wish it was not so complicated there that poeple can understand it better (myself included).. We have 3 groups of people there who have been fighting with each other for a long time before we even got there. I had to look up the meaning of Insurgent.

The online definition is: An insurgency is an armed rebellion by any irregular armed force that rises up against an established authority, government, or administration. Those carrying out an insurgency are "insurgents". Insurgents conduct sabotage and harassment. Insurgents usually are in opposition to a civil authority or government primarily in the hope of improving their condition.

That sounds a lot like pissed off civilians to me?? From what I watch on TV, the insurgents seem to be fighting with the other groups as well as us? Is this a fair conclusion on my part? We help one group and that just pisses off another group. I think there will always be fighting among those different groups because of their different religious beliefs. I do know what the correct answer or solution is but again if someone was armed at my doorstep, I would be pissed off as well.

 

[isnms]

http://www.theotheriraq.com/

as long as it takes,
as long as they need/want us there, yes the Iraqi government has requested we be there.

"Let us not allow what happened in 1991 to repeat itself, because if it does history will not be merciful to any one of us."

 

[jdub]

I wish it was not so complicated there that people can understand it better.. We have 3 groups of people there who have been fighting with each other for a long time before we even got there. I had to look up the meaning of Insurgent.

That's just it...it's very complicated. And our news media tends to over simplify (usually to further a political agenda in the US). You have to look back to when Iraq was created...a state (Iraq) was formed using lines on a map. No consideration was given to ethnic affiliation. And you are correct...they have been fighting each other, the Jews, the Christians, and the Persians for hundreds of years.

That sounds a lot like pissed off civilians to me?? From what I watch on TV, the insurgents seem to be fighting with the other groups as well as us? Is this a fair conclusion on my part? I think there will always be fighting among those different groups because of their different religious beliefs. I do know what the correct answer or solution is but again if someone was armed at my doorstep, I would be pissed off as well.

Remember...it's all about power. They are employing the tactics that have worked in the past...even Saddam used the same tactic...Terror. It's not us at their doorstep pointing a gun at your average Iraqi...it's other groups in Iraq with an agenda. The insurgency by the Sunni's and the Shiite's is an armed response to a political agenda. It's similar to a major country like the US...the military is the ultimate extension of politics...it is the means to impose political will to further national interests. An insurgency is the same, but on a smaller scale...usually internal to a country. The only way this country will survive is for it's own government to stand up and stop the various groups from making a power grab.

 

[Joel W.]

The only way this country will survive is for it's own government to stand up and stop the various groups from making a power grab.

I think you nailed it.

 

[rakkasan]

The only way this country will survive is for it's own government to stand up and stop the various groups from making a power grab.

HEAR, HEAR!! That's the nuts & bolts of all the issues. If the average Iraqi wants freedom, it's time to make it happen. If not, it's a lost cause, bring 'em home...

 

[TurboWarrior]

canadian soldiers have killed a lot of Taliban in the last few weeks. That fight is still in full force

 

[jdub]

Thanks guys...but, as usual, it's not that simple. Keep in mind these same groups make up the Iraqi Coalition government. The agendas are present inside this government and until they demonstrate the ability to think of the greater good...there will be problems for the government to keep the insurgents at bay and maintain control.

What we have to be very vigilant of is the rise of Fascism...especially the Islamic variety. The conditions are ripe for this to happen in Iraq and it will fall in line with Iran's aspirations for this region of the world. If we allow Fascism to take root in a regional sense, in an area with huge oil reserves...well, the problem will increase exponentially if we do and many, many more lives will be lost.

Thanks for the discussion...I usually stay out of these...keeping it civil and thought provoking is a breath of fresh air. I gotta sign off for till tomorrow...have to go to work.

 

[Joel W.]

Turbowarrior: I am referring to Iraq specifically here..

Taliban:a fundamentalist Islamic militia; in 1995 the Taliban militia took over Afghanistan and in 1996 took Kabul and set up an Islamic government; "the Taliban enforced a strict Muslim code of behavior"

Regardless of what the media says, oil is in our national interest...period. Until some other reliable energy source is developed, oil will remain in our national interest. It's not just us either...China, Japan, Europe, just about every major, developed country has oil as a national interest. And there are many different ways to protect that interest. Lately (for the US), it's been a military solution...but, did you know China is buying up oil supplies all over the world? So is Japan. Russia and France have oil companies on the ground in Iran...sanctions for nukes? Think about it.

Thanks for the discussion...I usually stay out of these...keeping it civil and thought provoking is a breath of fresh air.

You nailed it again..IMO.. Now that we understand the internal unsolveable problems of Iraq, I will admit that there is evidence (back to the 9/11 commision report) that I have found that says oil is the main reason we wanted to get into Iraq.(even well before 9/11)...I happen to agree this is why we are not willing to leave Iraq.

We need to rethink our beliefs that oil is our only option. It is not the only option any longer. Search my threads for more info here. And thank you sir, for your insite!