Oil Analysis - Post your VOA and UOA Here

[Supracentral]

Jdub,

I decided to change the oil early on my MKIV. Something just didn't feel "right" about the way she was running. After the change she seemed to smooth out again, but I know how the placebo effect works with this stuff...

I sent the oil out for testing. Here's what they came back with:

Have anything to add to that analysis?

 

[jetjock]

I'll take a shot at it Mike. I've interpreted a few of these in my time

Not bad for one test but you really need trend to know what's going on. Silicon is high. Normally that might be attributable to sealant or the antifoaming agent used in some oils but with the high Al to go along with it I agree with them. Running an K&N or some other performance filter? Otherwise the oil held up pretty well. Not much shearing, you could've gone much further on it. Fuel dilution looks great too, as does coolant. Is that RP SM rated? The phosphorus seems to indicate it is. I also thought RP had more moly in it but guess not. Maybe it's RedLine I'm thinking of. That said I've never been a fan of RP because of the add pack.

 

[jdub]

According to RP's website, the 5W-30 is a SL/GF-3 oil. It does not have a lot of moly in it...Red Line is much higher.

I was going to make the same comment as JJ about the silicon...I do believe RP uses a silicon based anti-foaming agent. But the high Al and slightly high Fe leads me to believe its wear due to dust/dirt getting past the air filter. What kind of air filter are you using? Here's some more info on silicon levels in oil:
http://www.blackstone-labs.com/the_silicon_bugaboo.html

The rest looks great...no fuel or coolant is a big plus! Did you have a TBN done on the sample? TBN will tell a lot about what kind of useful life is left on the oil. Take a look at this:
http://www.blackstone-labs.com/do_i_need_a_tbn_.html

Another suggestion...have a VOA (virgin oil analysis) done on this oil to include TBN. That way you will have a starting point to judge the values.

 

[jdub]

Whoa...I never knew you could send your used motor oil for diagnostic testing. Thats way too hardcore for me. Still very neat!

Tells you an awful lot about what's going on in your motor. On the $$$ side, it also tells you when your oil really needs to be changed vs. the 3,000 mile OCI that is pushed by the various shops. A true syn oil (like RP) can go 8,000 miles easy without doing analysis...if you do like SC does, you can go 12,000 to 15,000 miles based on what is happening in your motor.

Consider this: If you use high quality oil and filter and change every 3000 miles, it will cost you $40 each time...that's $120 over a 12,000 mile period. Blackstone analysis costs $34 (including TBN & postage) and you do it every 4000 miles...that's $102 over the same mileage interval. Plus (a very big plus), you can tell if the oil you are using is suited to your motor based on wear metals and how the oil holds up in terms of additive pack/viscosity. And you don't contribute to the profit margin of the major oil companies

The Blackstone kit is free:
http://www.blackstone-labs.com/free_test_kit.html

Standard analysis cost $22.50 and TBN (highly recommended) is an additional $10....postage for the sample via USPS costs $1.59 You want to take the sample after draining a small amount of oil or take it directly from the dipstick tube. Here's the procedure:
http://www.blackstone-labs.com/gas_sampling.html

You want to send in a virgin sample 1st (VOA) to get the baseline for the oil you are using. Then send in a used sample (UOA) for analysis. Like JJ said, one sample is not going to ID a trend...it will take several samples to see if a certain oil is what you want to use.

This little gizmo makes it easy to take samples:
http://www.supramania.com/forums/showthread.php?t=38929

 

[Fozbo]

A database of virgin oil sample analyses would be nice (since theorectically the specific oil brand/weight/additive should remain fairly constant).

 

[mkIIIman089]

Would standard "bottom end" bearing material be elevated if a stock CT rapidly went south over the course of an OCI?

I could post my UOA, however I'm afraid there are more things going on and exceed "normal" conditions. I don't think it would be a fair comparison for the oil if someone were to research UOAs.

 

[Supracentral]

Would standard "bottom end" bearing material be elevated if a stock CT rapidly went south over the course of an OCI?

It shouldn't be. Stock turbo bearing failure puts brass into the oil if I remember correctly. (Someone correct me if I'm wrong on that... It's been a while...)

I could post my UOA, however I'm afraid there are more things going on and exceed "normal" conditions. I don't think it would be a fair comparison for the oil if someone were to research UOAs.

Post it up, I think you probably have something else going on in the motor. What caused the turbo to fail? That's your real question.

Also what oil? How long is the OCI? Anything else going on with the motor we should know about?

 

[mkIIIman089]

-The reason for the relatively thin oil and very long OCI were simply because I was curious to see what would happen.

-It would seem that I have a trickle of a BHG or something going on for coolant contamination. It appears to very slowly be getting worse compared to other UOAs. Those, however, were at roughly half this interval.

-What killed the turbo most likely was just abuse from running more boost. I think, at least.

-Makeup oil is from a large oil leak... which to my amazement does not seem to be coming from any shaft seal, o-ring, or valve cover near the oily area. (from just above the water pump - down)

 

[jdub]

Your wear metals are high and it looks like it's a direct result of coolant in the oil. Turbo failure *could increase* iron and copper, but the rest indicate bearing wear from damage caused by the coolant. You are getting some fuel dilution as well, indicating blowby on your rings. Both are excellent reasons to change oil more often as Blackstone suggested to keep coolant/fuel levels down in the oil.

I would run a thicker version of RL (5W-30) due to this wear (your bearing clearances are opening up) and change more often like the analysis suggested. You might consider changing to an oil like German Castrol (0W-30) that's thicker at ops temp.

Is your PCV system in good shape?
What filter are you using and how often are you changing it?

Edit: merged threads with the same subject

 

[jdub]

I have switched to GC, and plan on resampling in 4k miles.

As you suspected my #3 piston's rings are shot.

It was an Amsoil EaO, each oil change. Now the Mobil 1 that came with the GC sale, and will be changed with the oil.

Fuel dilution - I'm still well below the recommended spec on the analysis, but you say it's high?

Fuel dilution is not that high, but it is a contributing factor...it will thin the oil more than you want at ops temp. With coolant in the oil, it can (and seems to be in this case) cause bearing wear.

Amsoil EaO filters are excellant...probably the best filter out there.

Good plan on the next analysis...you want to do them about every 3-4000 miles. You might want to take one a bit sooner to see what's happening with the coolant issue. Also, get a TBN done if you plan on using extended drain intervals.

My plan from here on out was to start using more easily attainable/less expensive oils. As systematically analyzing them as I could to find which performs best, so TBN was going to be included in my next sample.

I don't doubt that EaO filters are very good (best?), but the price premium you pay for the best is out of my range right now. As is just fixing all of these mechanical issues.

In adddition, you said I should bump up the viscosity some. I did but only because it was the only grade that is highly regarded, if the increased wear was changing bearing clearances enough to need a thicker oil, would I notice a pressure drop?

I'm sure you know your stuff, but after reading AE Haas a while back, I can only question recommended viscosity increases to know the exact reason behind it.

You're dead on about the price on the EaO filters...they are the best, but justifying the cost is hard to swallow. That is the reason I don't use them

With increased bearing clearances due to wear, you may or may not see a pressure drop. Even more so on a 7M turbo due to the way the stock filter head/cooler loop and oil squirters bleed pressure above ~40 psi. Thicker oil at ops temp will help fill that increased clearance and provide *some* protection to the bearings due to increased boundary layer lubrication a thicker oil provides.

Notice I said "ops temp"...GC flows very well cold, but is closer a 40W at 100 deg C. It's an excellent combination for the motors you see in a Supra. These motors (7M, 1J, 2J) are a bit dated when it comes to the tolerances the companies are building to now, that's why you see a 0W-20 spec'ed for the new engines...close bearing clearances and fuel savings. A xxW-30 is more appropriate for our engines...a little thicker if it's showing wear. GC fits this bill nicely

 

[KicknAsphlt]

Here's mine...

 

[mkIIIman089]

Here's mine...

LOL. Nice timing, looks like I'm not the only one with that slightly leaky HG problem. You seem to have a nearly identical problem.

Edit that last post... how long did you run on that oil? I doubt it was 137,500 miles...

 

[jdub]

Yep...the high levels of sodium and potassium indicate coolant. That leads to wear on the bearings and drive the wear metal values up just as the analysis shows. You also have a fairly high level of silicon...bet you're using a K&N air filter

I would dump the 20W-50 for a 30W multigrade.

 

[KicknAsphlt]

LOL. Nice timing, looks like I'm not the only one with that slightly leaky HG problem. You seem to have a nearly identical problem.

Edit that last post... how long did you run on that oil? I doubt it was 137,500 miles...

Changed it last March, but the thing uses oil pretty regularly...so it always gets a fresh quart every so often...LOL! My car has a MHG that the previous owner put on, but the car overheated last year on my way back from Vegas...since then, I've had cooling issues with the damn thing, and I've gotta add coolant/water every so often (not drastically, but every probably week and a half or two weeks)...I think I either warped the head, cracked it, or maybe cracked the gasket (if that's possible)....or maybe they didn't finish the gasket surfaces on the head and/or block properly before installing the gasket. I was gonna try a retorque first when I get it back from the body shop. If that doesn't work, then well....time to yank the head off and see what's wrong. Oh, and that's my first analysis for this car.

Yep...the high levels of sodium and potassium indicate coolant. That leads to wear on the bearings and drive the wear metal values up just as the analysis shows. You also have a fairly high level of silicon...bet you're using a K&N air filter

I would dump the 20W-50 for a 30W multigrade.

Roger that, I'll take that under advisement. :icon_bigg

 

[SupaMan]

i have a question, im changing my oil soon and im gonna take a sample i already sent my info to blackstone requesting a sample kit.

my question is, how long do you guys wait once you crack the drain bolt/valve open? it says to try and get the middle of the draining oil not the start or the end. i was just curious.

 

[jdub]

I let about a quart drain, then fill the bottle. Use Black Stone's bottle and be very careful when you open to fill...don't touch the inside or let anything but oil get in it.

For UOA's between changes, this makes it easy:
http://www.supramania.com/forums/showthread.php?t=38929

 

[Apollonius]

Is it worth it to send them a sample after a fresh oil change to get a reference point? or should i wait about 3000 miles?

Oh and that engine oil drain valve is a very nice product thanks for the info jdub

 

[jdub]

I'm a believer in a VOA to get a baseline on the oil before it goes in the motor. That way you can see what metals are already in the oil and it's TBN.

 

[adampecush]

Here are a couple UOAs from my daily driver. While not supra related, they are rather interesting. Jdub helped me out in figuring out what was going on and indicated that I should post my results as they might benefit others in similar situations.

The car is a 2002 maxima with a VQ35 engine - 6MT with 120,000 km on the clock. I did a UOA on the first oil change (to GC Syntec 0W30) after I bought it. The first analysis indicated high sodium (As well as high molybdenum and boron - not additives in GC 0W30), a sign of coolant contamination. Blackstone indicated that I had coolant in the oil, however, it appears as though this was based upon the ICP spectrometry alone, not a glycol test.

After digging around, I found that the previously used oil was an esso/exxon/mobil conventional oil which reportedly may have used sodium in the additive package. I sampled at the next oil change and re-submitted. The most recent results indicated that sodium, boron, and moly dropped by about one-half; however, the lab again suggested the presence of coolant despite the fact that the oil tested negative for glycol.

This is a case of there being more to the actual condition of the engine than meets the eye. I was seriously considering having the cooling system pressure tested, but as the car never overheated or lost coolant, I decided to do one more UOA before pursuing the potential problem further. As you can see, one UOA does not tell the whole story about the condition of an engine. My advice is that if you choose to analyze your oil, do so on a regular basis. It isn't overly expensive, and it can generally save you money by both allowing to safely extend oil change intervals, and discover problems before they become costly.

UOA 1

UOA 2

 

[CyFi6]

Here is mine, any other thoughts besides those already presented?