Blah blah blah, 9/11 conspiracy, a plane has hit the Pentagon? What do you think?

Nick M

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Ask the survivors where the relatives are if they plane wasnt hijacked. There isnt video, but that probably wouldnt matter either. There is video of JFK having his right front half of the head blown out, yet people insist he was shot from the front.

Conspiracy people are always the ones that fabricate evidence, or withold evidence, or fail to explain what the see.

http://www.snopes.com/rumors/pentagon.htm

The notion that the Pentagon was not damaged by terrorists who hijacked American Airlines Flight 77 (a Boeing 757) and crashed it into the military office complex, but that the whole affair was staged by the U.S. government, has been promulgated by French author Thierry Meyssan in his book, The Frightening Fraud. Meyssan offers no real explanation for what did cause the extensive damage to the Pentagon, asserting only that Flight 77 did not exist, no plane crashed into the Pentagon, and that "the American government is lying."

Unfortunately, the appeal of conspiracy theories has resulted in widespread dissemination of Meyssan's "theory" in France and the USA, particularly in web sites that mirror his work. As Le Nouvel Observateur noted: "This theory suits everyone - there are no Islamic extremists and everyone is happy. It eliminates reality."

The text cited in the example above comes from a Hunt the Boeing! And test your perceptions! web site, one of the English-language mirrors of Meyssan's claims, where readers are invited to ponder a series of questions about why photographs of the damaged Pentagon seemingly show no evidence of a crashed airplane. The answers to the questions are:

1) Can you explain how a Boeing 757-200, weighing nearly 100 tons and travelling at a minimum speed of 250 miles an hour only damaged the outside of the Pentagon?

Despite the appearances of exterior photographs, the Boeing 757-200 did not "only damage the outside of the Pentagon." It caused damage to all five rings (not just the outermost one) after penetrating a reinforced, 24-inch-thick outer wall. As 60 Minutes II reported in their "Miracle of the Pentagon" episode on 28 November 2001, the section of the Pentagon into which the hijacked airliner was flown had just been reinforced during a renovation project:

"We made several modifications to the building as part of that renovation that we think helped save people's lives," says Lee Evey, who runs a billion-dollar project to renovate the Pentagon. They’ve been working on it since 1993. The first section was five days from being finished when the terrorists hit it with the plane.
The renovation project built strength into the 60-year-old limestone exterior with a web of steel beams and columns.

"You have these steel tubes and, again, they go from the first floor and go all the way to the fifth floor," says Evey. "We have everything bolted together in a strong steel matrix. It supports and encases the windows and provides tremendous additional strength to the wall."

When the plane hit at 350 miles an hour, the limestone layer shattered. But inside, those shards of stone were caught by a shield of cloth that lines the entire section of the building.

It is a special cloth that helps prevent masonry from fragmenting and turning into shrapnel. The cloth is also used to make bullet-resistant vests.

All of this, especially the steel, held up the third, fourth and fifth floors. They stayed up for 35 minutes. You can see them through the smoke, suspended over the hole gouged by the jet. Only after the evacuation did the heat melt the new steel away. Evey says that without the reconstruction, the floors might have collapsed immediately.

Exterior photographs are misleading because they show only the intact roof structures of the outer rings and don't reveal that the plane penetrated all the way to the ground floor of the third ring. As a U.S. Army press release noted back on 26 September 2001, one engine of the aircraft punched a 12-foot hole through the wall of the second ring:


On the inside wall of the second ring of the Pentagon, a nearly circular hole, about 12-feet wide, allows light to pour into the building from an internal service alley. An aircraft engine punched the hole out on its last flight after being broken loose from its moorings on the plane. The result became a huge vent for the subsequent explosion and fire. Signs of fire and black smoke now ring the outside of the jagged-edged hole.
Recall that when the first airliner was flown into a World Trade Center tower on September 11 — before it was known that the "accident" was really part of a deliberate terrorist attack — newscasters were speculating that a small plane had accidentally flown into the side of the tower, because the visible exterior damage didn't seem as extensive as what people thought a large airliner would cause. Even though the two airplanes flown into the World Trade Center towers were travelling faster at the time of impact than the Pentagon plane was (400 MPH vs. 350 MPH), hit aluminum-and-glass buildings rather than reinforced concrete walls, and didn't dissipate much of their energy striking the ground first (as the Pentagon plane did), they still barely penetrated all the way through the WTC towers.

Below is a recent (11 March 2002) photograph of the the rebuilding effort underway at the Pentagon, demonstrating that far more than just the "outside" of the building was damaged and needed to be repaired:

2) Can you explain how a Boeing 14.9 yards high, 51.7 yards long, with a wingspan of 41.6 yards and a cockpit 3.8 yards high, could crash into just the ground floor of this building?
As eyewitnesses described and photographs demonstrate, the hijacked airliner dived so low as it approached the Pentagon that it actually hit the ground first, thereby dissipating much of the energy that might otherwise have caused more extensive damage to the building; nonetheless, as described by The New York Times, the plane still hit not "just the ground floor" but between the first and second floors:


The Boeing 757 crashed into the outer edge of the building between the first and second floors, "at full power," Mr. Rumsfeld said. It penetrated three of the five concentric rings of the building.
Another account of the crash described:


The plane banked sharply and came in so low that it clipped light poles. It slammed into the side of the Pentagon at an estimated 350 miles per hour after first hitting the helipad. The plane penetrated the outer three rings of the building. The jet fuel exploded, which sent a fireball outward from the impact point. About 30 minutes after the crash, a cross-section of the building collapsed, but only after enough time had elapsed for rescue workers to evacuate all injured employees.
The fire was so hot that firefighters could not approach the impact point itself until approximately 1 P.M. The collapse and roof fires left the inner courtyard visible from outside through a gaping hole. The area hit by the plane was newly renovated and reinforced, while the areas surrounding the impact zone were closed in preparation for renovation, so the death toll could have been much higher if another area had been hit.

Next question:


3) You'll remember that the aircraft only hit the ground floor of the Pentagon's first ring. Can you find debris of a Boeing 757-200 in this photograph?
You'll recall from the discussions above that the hijacked airliner did not "only hit the ground floor of the Pentagon's first ring" — it struck the Pentagon between the first and second floors and blasted all the way through to the third ring. Because the plane disappeared into the building's interior after penetrating the outer ring, it was not visible in photographs taken from outside the Pentagon. Moreover, since the airliner was full of jet fuel and was flown into thick, reinforced concrete walls at high speed, exploding in a fireball, any pieces of wreckage large enough to be identifiable in after-the-fact photographs taken from a few hundred feet away burned up in the intense fire that followed the crash (just as the planes flown into the World Trade Center towers burned up, and the intensity of their jet-fuel fires caused both towers to collapse).

Small pieces of airplane debris were plainly visible on the Pentagon lawn in other photographs, however, such as the one below:

(click the link for all the missing photos)

4) Can you explain why the Defence Secretary deemed it necessary to sand over the lawn, which was otherwise undamaged after the attack?

The claim that the "Defence Secretary" ordered the lawn to be sanded over is false. A base of sand and gravel was laid on the Pentagon lawn because the trucks and other heavy equipment used to haul away the debris (as shown in the photograph below) would have been slipping and sliding on the grass and become mired in the Pentagon lawn otherwise.

5) Can you explain what happened to the wings of the aircraft and why they caused no damage?
As the front of the Boeing 757 hit the Pentagon, the outer portions of the wings likely snapped during the initial impact, then were pushed inward towards the fuselage and carried into the building's interior; the inner portions of the wings probably penetrated the Pentagon walls with the rest of the plane. Any sizable portions of the wings were destroyed in the explosion or the subsequent fire. Nonetheless, damage to the building caused by the plane's wings is plainly visible in photographs, such as the one below (note the blackened sections on both sides of the impact site):

6) Can you explain why the County Fire Chief could not tell reporters where the aircraft was?
The exact quote offered here was:


When asked by a journalist: "Is there anything left of the aircraft at all?"
"First of all, the question about the aircraft, there are some small pieces of aircraft visible from the interior during this fire-fighting operation I'm talking about, but not large sections. In other words, there's no fuselage sections and that sort of thing." "You know, I'd rather not comment on that. We have a lot of eyewitnesses that can give you better information about what actually happened with the aircraft as it approached. So we don't know. I don't know."

The fire chief wasn't asked "where the aircraft was"; he was asked "Is there anything left of the aircraft at all?" He did indeed provide an answer to the question he was asked: There were no large sections of the plane left by the time he was asked (the day after the attack) because they had been smashed into smaller pieces by the impact and then burned up; all that remained were smaller pieces visible only from the interior of the Pentagon.


7) Can you find the aircraft's point of impact?
Immediately after Flight 77 smashed into the Pentagon, the impact was obscured by a huge fireball, explosions, fire, smoke, and water from firefighting efforts. Within a half hour, the upper stories of the building collapsed, thereby permanently obscuring the impact site. It simply wasn't possible for photographs to capture a clear view of the impact site during that brief interval between the crash and the collapse.

In photographs like the one provided (below left), the impact site is obscured by water from firefighters' hoses and smoke. A two-story high impact hole does exist right behind the fireman in the photograph, but it's covered over by water issuing from the fire truck.

By the time the smoke and water cleared, additional portions of the building had collapsed (below right), further obscuring the impact point.


Update: A video presentation unleashed on the Internet in August 2004 rehashes the same conspiracy claims. It can be found at a number of locations, including:

http://www.elchulo.net/files/pentagon.swf
http://members.iinet.net.au/~sperna/omgkool.swf
http://www.freedomunderground.org/memoryhole/pentagon.php
Last updated: 23 September 2004

Do yourselves a favor and don't live in the darkness of democrats and read the information posted, and read the link debunking the links the conspiracy people misrepresent.

I dont think you are bad Americans for thinking all the missing people vanished and are all in on the conspiracy, just stupid. Even Saddam knows.
I apoligize for taking the picture before the soldier defaced Husseins mural of the WTC attack. So Hussein was celebrating the US attacking itself, knowing it was a phallacy and we would invade? You people really think that?
Copy%20of%20Iraq%20WTC%20mural.jpg
 

SP 7M

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I started.

It all depends on the angle of descent that the plane was at, IJ. If it was only 10 degrees nose-down, for example, then yes it would've probably done more damage. The explosion was quite a large one, you know.

I was trying to get a feeling for how big that building is, but when you look at how small the fire trucks look in comparison to it, it's quite well-sized. A 757 is not that big of a plane, you guys.

Aside from all of this discussion, I refuse to believe that our own government would have a hand is such massive terrorist attacks ON OUR OWN SOIL.
 

Nick M

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Al-Queda and the ring of Muslim terrorists have hit US targets many times prior to the attacks on 9-11, in retaliation for the US basing Desert Shield and Desert Storm out of his former homeland, of which his family disowned by the way. Bin Laden publicly declared he would hi-jack planes and use them as weapons. Pull the heads out of the asses.
 

1TuffSupra

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SP 7M said:
Aside from all of this discussion, I refuse to believe that our own government would have a hand is such massive terrorist attacks ON OUR OWN SOIL.

For the record Im not saying, nor do I think anyone else is saying, that the US govt helped the terrorists land a plane into the building or whatever else. And I know im not a bad American Ive had a part in serving this country as well, hell my entire family has been involved in the military in some way shape or form. I think the largest problem with simply accepting what we are told is because of the current administration that is in office, I know I personally dont trust them whatsoever (and apparently neither does the majority of the country). Have you ever heard of the Skull and Bones? Our current president is a member of this secret society, as is 5 members of his administration, William Donaldson being one of them. How do we know who he holds closer to his heart, his society or his american people? And about us being stupid...

First off this is supposed to be a rationally discussed topic, and I dont think remarks like that are constructive in any way. In fact, I think it is quite a bit more foolish to simply accept whatever we are told rather than questioning it. This is just like how so many people accept religion as law and completely discount evolution because thats what the bible says, though its been proven to exist time and time again.

With that being said you make some good points about how it could have gone down and Im not saying that it didnt happen that way, not saying that it did either. But there are still a few things about the whole 9/11 incedent that bothers me.

"It's extremely rare that we don't get the recorders back. I can't recall another domestic case in which we did not recover the recorders,” said Ted Lopatkiewicz, spokesman for the National Transportation Safety Board.

Why is that? the black box recorders supposedly can withstand extreme crashes as they have proven time and time again. They also have homing beacons in them so when a plane crashes they can be found as quickly as possible. Why the hell do they just disappear


"You have these steel tubes and, again, they go from the first floor and go all the way to the fifth floor," says Evey. "We have everything bolted together in a strong steel matrix. It supports and encases the windows and provides tremendous additional strength to the wall."

And Sky scrapers dont? They have to continue standing in strong winds, earthquakes, etc etc. Most modern scrapers do have steel webbing thoughout the inside and outside of the building. Most also have atleast one if not more concrete cores inside the building.

The plane penetrated the outer three rings of the building. The jet fuel exploded, which sent a fireball outward from the impact point.

Even when the b52 bomber hit the empire state building and its fuel exploded it sent its fireball throughout the building itself, yes there was some flashback and some fire escaped from the hole punched in the building but the majority of the fire lit up the inside of the building. But in that incident the wings of the plane did break off, as did its landing gear, and half of them went in the building with the rest of the plane. So i do see the logic in that.

But why in the hell did the govt have to be made to release this new video footage and it doesnt even really show shit. It just seems like something is off to me.

But overall, I may in fact be wrong about the situation but until some indisputable evidence is brought forward I will continue to question what really happened at the pentagon.

Here is the link to the cbs story about the skull and bones, its a pretty good read. http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/10/02/60minutes/main576332.shtml
 

figgie

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lol
this is funny
not a plane huh?
<-- Looks at all missles/cruise missles and there payload.
Folks what ever your minds conjure it isn't it.
Let looks at all the possibilities

Sparrow, Sidewinder, Phoenix, AMRAAM, ASRAAM, Stinger, DRM/AST nope, Air to air guidance only. And also due to the fuel used (Solid Propellant) it leaves a tell tale trail until it detonates.

Hydra, way to small and to fast (2425 fps). The warheads don't carry enough oomph to damage concrete much less GO THROUGH concrete (10 lbs and a "bigger" 17 lbs)

Maverick @ 125 lbs or 300 pounds. The crater left would be unmistaken (hell at 250 lbs dumb bombs leave a 30 foot crater 10 feet deep). And again, the trail of the rocket propellant) and it sure as hell would not leave BLACK marks plastered about 40-50 feet out from the point of impact. NO MISSLE/CRUISE MISSLE WOULD!!

The commons theme with all missles whether air launched or ground launch is the vapor trail left behind.

Cruise missle you say?
The pentagon would not be standing today if it where.

I find this funny.

BTW all the missle information along with almost every piece of munition the US has can be found at www.fas.org.
 

figgie

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1TuffSupra said:
But why in the hell did the govt have to be made to release this new video footage and it doesnt even really show shit. It just seems like something is off to me.

simple math my freind :)

let take that video

fov of view is around 110 degrees. If you are lucky you are seeing 200 feet of landscape

I am going to low ball this btw :)

stall speed for a Boeing 757 is around 180 knots which is about 207 mph or 1,092,960 feet per hour, divide that by 60 to get feet per minute.

18216 feet per minute. Divide by 60 to get per second

303 feet per second.

so in one second at the stall speed which is used to land a 757 it covers 303 feet. Yet the video shows 200 feet TOTAL which half of that was where the plane came to view.

So the camera had roughly about .7 seconds (and I am estimating high to appease everyone) to capture the plane on film.

OK!!
 

1TuffSupra

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lol, well i know why it doesnt really show shit. Its just weird that the govt wouldnt release the video until they were made to do so (atleast that was what was said on the news last night) 5 yrs later. Why not just share the info with the world like they should.
 
L

lanky189

Guest
interesting facts so far...i haven't made my mind up exactly on the whole thing...but i can't see the government doing this to us...

anywho...lets continue to keep it civil fella's this is one of the most informative threads so far.
 

figgie

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1TuffSupra said:
lol, well i know why it doesnt really show shit. Its just weird that the govt wouldnt release the video until they were made to do so (atleast that was what was said on the news last night) 5 yrs later. Why not just share the info with the world like they should.

<-- looks at Rosewell "Incident" that happened in 1947 and we still have no clue.

Yeah the Goverment won't be releasing anything anytime soon ;)
 

rakkasan

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1TuffSupra said:
lol, well i know why it doesnt really show shit. Its just weird that the govt wouldnt release the video until they were made to do so (atleast that was what was said on the news last night) 5 yrs later. Why not just share the info with the world like they should.

This is how the conspiracies get started (not by you, LOL). Some people think that they're entitled to any information that the government is in possession of, yet that is simply not so. A lot of info isn't released because it contains material that might hamper national security. Or sometimes, the government hasn't evaluated the material so it withholds it in fear that it *might* contain something that hampers national security. I can't blame them for withholding things such as these video clips, I would think that common sense would prevail.
 

SupraMario

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Figgie did it have to be a missle with a warhead, could it just have been a dumby bomb, that hit the side and explosives, that were inside already could have went off.
what ever it was missle or not, a plane doesnt vanish like that, from all the rubble in the WTC plane parts were still their.
a 747 engine doesnt disinegrate.
I dont really know what im getting at but it just does seem odd that the whole plane theory has little to support it, video or no video.
if you saw the flight that went down in penn. you could tell it was a plane, a building isnt going to cover up plane parts to were i cant make them out.
 

figgie

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rakkasan said:
Not so fast. Follow the link to the DoD website & scroll about half way down.....


Or use these direct links to video #1 and video #2

Are the conspiracy theories over or have they just expanded?

nothing new,

That video #1 was released right after the 9/11. That how the entire consipracy thing came up. Vid #2 is a different angle. You can actually see the "plane/missle"UFO" the frame before it hits.



Good lordie you would think the DoD would by camera that do better than 1 fps... damn that is slow!!!
 

rakkasan

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figgie said:
nothing new,

That video #1 was released right after the 9/11. That how the entire consipracy thing came up. Vid #2 is a different angle. You can actually see the "plane/missle"UFO" the frame before it hits.



Good lordie you would think the DoD would by camera that do better than 1 fps... damn that is slow!!!


I know it's old, I just posted it because it's found on the DoD website, so the gubment has released it.