2JZGE-T vs 1JZGTE?

[DonS1mpson]

This forum is bad for my wallet. I thought that I'd be perfectly happy with the 7MGE that is coming in my 92 track car, and if/when that blew I was happily going to put a 2JZGE as a non turbo engine and be happy with that. Then I logged onto here, read for about 5 minutes and then decided that I need a turbocharged JZ back in my life :3d_frown:.

Now whilst I'd hate to start a fight with a 'VS' thread, I'd like some Supra veterans to give me some input as to what would be suitable for my needs as I've been out of the MK3 game for a LONG time. I've done my searching and while it seems like 7MGTE vs 2JZGE-T has been discussed quite often it isn't done much when a 1JZGTE is thrown into the equation instead.

Right, so the first port of call is going 2JZGE-T for the same reasons it is so popular over there in the states, 2JZGEs are dirt cheap and it is something that is very rarely done here in the UK. I've done a bit of maths and I could get a 2JZGE, cheap T4 manifold and rebuilt turbo based on a Holset HX35 (Probably far too big as my HP goals would be no greater than 400) for around about the same price as a 1JZGTE. Obviously there are other bits to factor in but purchasing the turbo and manifold is what I thought would make 2JZGE-T uneconomical compared to a 1JZGTE swap.

Vitally the car the engine would be going in is a NA and I'd prefer not to go standalone. There has been some research done on the UK forum into swapping the 2JZGE as a NA motor and running it off of the 2JZGE ECU and keeping the standard ignition system. In theory it seems pretty simple, but I was wondering how would the a 2JZGE/7MGE hybrid electronics/ignition system fair with some boost? I can't think of a reason why would there be an issue, after all there are plenty of NA-T MKIVs and SC300s out there, but I gather that it isn't done very often in MK3s, any reason why? I know many 2JZGE-Ts are controlled with 7MGTE electronics so why not with 7MGE electronics?

The second is just how track (road racing) friendly is a 2JZGE-T going to be compared to a 1JZGTE? I've already owned a Soarer with a 1JZ with just an intake and exhaust but even then I loved it. With some cams I think it would make an awesome engine for track because it is so willing to rev. Although I have nothing to base this on I can't help but imagine a 2JZGE-T would be a sledgehammer compared to the scalpel that is a 1JZGTE? Is that a fair assessment. Even if I toned down the turbo size for the 2JZ or went single on the 1JZ I think the short stroke of the 1J would be more suitable for the type of car I want to build.

What is a 2JZGE-T like to drive? Is the power progressive or does it just come in one great big lump once you have hit boost? Do they like to rev?

This is not a high HP build. I have no interest in chasing XXXrwhp for bragging rights, what I want is a reliable, cost effective fun engine for the track and the street.

It may seem like I have made my mind up for the 1J, but really I am open minded. A 2JZGE seems like better value for money as I'd be singled and pushing circa 400bhp on a 2JZGE-T while for the same money I'd be lucky to get much more than 320BHP on a 1JZ with the standard twins, but it is the difference is characteristics that worry me a bit.

Any input would be very helpful.

Thanks

Josh

 

[mnracer550]

im pretty sure if you wanna run 7m electronics on a 2jz it needs to be 7mgte NOT 7mge electronics. that could also factor in as more money. personally id go 1jz though. idk how much i like the idea of running newer engine on outdated electronics. just my 2 cents though

 

[hvyman]

1jz or 1.5 jz would be better. The fact that the ic pipes goes over the turbo kills the ge-t.

Buddy did the ge-t and hit upper ic pipe was prolly about the temp if the turbo. Could easily fry a egg in about 3sec.

 

[GrimJack]

For a track car, what really matters is area under the curve, rather than rev limit. What you are looking for is something that produces a nice, flat, power curve over the widest RPM band possible.

Mostly, this is achieved by engineering two main items - how soon in the RPM band you can build boost, and how far you can rev the engine while still holding that boost.

For the first item, the 2JZGE already has the advantage. Higher compression pistons will spool you sooner, at the usual expense of top end power, however, that doesn't seem to be something you are terribly concerned about, so you're on the right track there. The other advantage is in your turbo - modern turbo tech can certainly spool better than 20 year old tech, possibly a lot better. The 2J option forces you to go for a modern turbo option, so again, advantage 2J.

For the second item, it's pretty simple as well, how far you can spin it up depends on the usual factors - piston speed for the bottom end, valve springs for the top. Well, that and being willing to risk popping the engine, of course!

Remember, a car that puts out 400hp from 3k RPM to 7k RPM is actually slightly better than a similar car that puts out 400hp from 4k RPM to 8k RPM, because you'll be in boost 1k RPM sooner off the line. Other than that, they are going to be rather similar, and if you're doing racing that doesn't involve a standing start, this becomes entirely insignificant.

Bottom line - given the choices you've presented, I'd pick the 2J.

PS: The 7MGE electronics don't adapt well to this kind of situation. The AFM it uses is a flapper type, not the karmen vortex type used in the GTE. Meaning, it can't measure much over it's stock values, because once that door is open all the way, it can't tell how much more is going by.

 

[DonS1mpson]

When I say 7mge electronics I actually mean a hybrid of them and mostly 2jzge stuff, the Ecu would be 2jz, as would the engine loom spliced with the 7m/car's body loom.

I am beginning to side with the 2j option for precisely what grim said, since I am using a w58 for now I can't go mental with power so I can keep boost low and the CR high and secondly I can tailor my choice of modern Turbo where as I'd be stuck with the 1jz twins which let's be truthful aren't great.

I'd still like someone to describe what a 350/400bhp 2jzget would feel like and when I could expect a sensibly sized Turbo to have spooled by. I know from personal experience that once past 2500/3000rpm the 1jz delivers power pretty smoothly until 6500 when the came run out of puff. I'd like a similarly smooth power delivery, certainly on a track car.

 

[te72]

I have a cammed (Brian Crower 264) and ported 1jz. The car has a 3" y-pipe and exhaust, everything else is stock, down to the air box. With this combination, and a silencer in the exhaust, I made 320rwhp (~400hp at the crank if considering a 20% drivetrain loss). The car is VERY smooth, power comes on somewhat abruptly, but if you're above 2800 or so, it boosts nearly instantly. See the graph, lots of "under the curve" power for a more or less stock setup:

Unfortunately, that doesn't show rpm, but speed. Around 80mph in 4th gear, the car is making around 200-220whp, from about 3500rpm onward.

Personally though, if you're willing to spend some money, a 2j is certainly a nice option. High compression AND boost? Yes please.

 

[PROTOTYPE]

For what you are wanting to do I feel an HX35 with 2JGE-T would be the ideal set up for you. Has a broad range of power and if you want to stretch your legs some more you have ability to with that turbo as the 2j (even 1j) wouldn't really sweat an extra 100-150 whp at that level. Providing it's maintained and not a hack job. I am planning 2JZGE-T with a HX35or HX40 on my build. Granted I will be on standalone but I am shooting for some decent power later on (as soon as I get the W58 out of there...)

 

[DonS1mpson]

Really? I thought having a Turbo that has a good 100+ more bhp than what you are planning to run was a bit over kill, especially on a track car where response is everything?

For what the car will be used for I don't think I would ever need much more than 350.

 

[te72]

If you can swing the money for it, either engine with a modern turbo, a good suspension setup, and brakes meant for this type of abuse, not to mention modern sticky rubber... would do you a WORLD of difference. Either engine would be sufficient, but going fast is usually more about handling and braking than outright power.

 

[DonS1mpson]

Oh, of course. Stopping and turning counts far more for a track car than raw HP, infact to be completely honest the 200BHP that a 7MGE puts out is more than enough for me at this stage (You have to consider the fact that 90% of the car you'll find at road racing track days over here in England are Miatas!). Wanting to go JZ is more for me being a bit silly and wanting something I can have some fun in on the street. That being said I haven't even collected the car yet, but I remember my Soarer being extremely fun to drive almost solely because of the engine, with something similar mounted to a manual gearbox would be epic win I think.

ANYWAY. I think I am beginning to side with the idea of a 1JZ more. Parts are more common and it is considerably more 'plug and play' on paper as opposed to sourcing NA-T parts, changing head gasket, etc. In comparison I could in theory buy a running Soarer doner car, pull the engine and then bolt it into my MK3 using off the shelf parts, wiring and intercooler aside, which I'd have to do on a 2JZGE NA-T anyway.

Although I've owned highly strung NA cars that only make their power at the higher end of the powerband and hated them for that very reason (waiting for an engine to come on cam is worse than turbo lag!), there is an undeniable allure of being able to spin of straight six to 8,000RPM and beyond with very little effort (Yes, I know the Twins will be useless at those RPM. Actually in my experience they are useless after 6.5k!) I'm going to be running a ridiculously short diff ratio (4.66. 1G diff FTW!) so I doubt I'll miss the torque of a 2JZ, and even if I do if the 1J decides to go pop for any reason there is always 1.5JZ...

 

[DonS1mpson]

Just a thought I've come up with, if nobody is able to answer I'll start another thread at a later date.

Does anybody know if I'd be able to run a Soarer 1JZGTE on a JZA70 engine loom, and would the JZA70 engine loom in turn be pretty much plug and play with the MA70 body loom?

Remember I am RHD so don't have to worry about lengthening wires.

If this is the case then it is game over for 2JZ NA-T in my eyes.

 

[te72]

(Yes, I know the Twins will be useless at those RPM. Actually in my experience they are useless after 6.5k!) I'm going to be running a ridiculously short diff ratio (4.66. 1G diff FTW!) so I doubt I'll miss the torque of a 2JZ, and even if I do if the 1J decides to go pop for any reason there is always 1.5JZ...

It's also the stock cams on the 1j that are useless beyond 6500. Get some cams, port the heads, and your stock twins are pretty much a restriction beyond 4800 or so... Good idea on the diff change though, I didn't know there was a 4.66 R&P for a G-series diff.

Does anybody know if I'd be able to run a Soarer 1JZGTE on a JZA70 engine loom, and would the JZA70 engine loom in turn be pretty much plug and play with the MA70 body loom?

Pretty sure you'd still have to do a bit of wiring, but no need to extend the harness since you're RHD. Check the "1j swap for dummies guide" that's stickied in this section.

 

[Dylan JZ]

cross-over intake mani, MAF, distributor, horrid valve covers, high compression, etc.. no thanks.

If I was going to do a motor, it would be the same thing it is today as it was back when I swapped: 1JZGTE or 2JZGTE.