Which Matching brand/model tire for stagger fit?

[Koenigturbo]

I know this sounds goofy as hell, but why can't I find tires that are the same brand model for the size I want? I have 18x 10's with 40 offset for the rear and 18x 8.5 / 45 off set in the front. I thinking 245 40's for the front, 265 or 275 ish (in that range) for the rear. I know there's variables 45or 40's That I can use. Sure, I can find these sizes, but I'm have having trouble getting same brand/ model to match front /rear. I can't seem to find a 265 ish (in that range) to match the same brand/ model for the front. Maybe I need to eliminate the varible's, and establish if want 40's/ 45's and establish if I want 265 or 275 ish for the back, make it easier on me. Any else have trouble like this or is it me.

 

[mkiii222]

I'd check the manufacturers website for the tires you like.

IE, I just did a quick check at Bridgestone and found the RE760 in 245/40/18 and 275/35/18. (2nd number is a percentage, so they should match up fine)

That was just the first tire I looked at.

Tire stores don't always offer all sizes and have been known to say tires don't exist that do. You just have to do your homework and find a shop that is willing to special order tires for you. Or stop being picky and get different brands for front and rear.

 

[Koenigturbo]

I'd check the manufacturers website for the tires you like.

IE, I just did a quick check at Bridgestone and found the RE760 in 245/40/18 and 275/35/18. (2nd number is a percentage, so they should match up fine)

That was just the first tire I looked at.

Tire stores don't always offer all sizes and have been known to say tires don't exist that do. You just have to do your homework and find a shop that is willing to special order tires for you. Or stop being picky and get different brands for front and rear.

"Or stop being picky and get different brands for front and rear."
Not really sure why I would mix brands,.. doesn't sound like a good idea, unless some can tell me it's not a bad idea, Not knocking 'mkiii 222", I just want to learn something, "true though, I didn't think about calling the tire manufacture,.. that helps.

 

[Supracentral]

The reason you're having problem is the range between the wheels is too big. You should consider a 9" wide wheel for the front or a 9.5" for the rear. Personally I'd go for a 9.5" rear.

What you want to do is stay as close to the circumference of the wheel you're replacing.

Let's say for example, your tires are currently:

Front: 245/45/R17
Rear: 275/40/R17

If you look up those size tires with Kuhmo for the Ecsta MX line, you'll find that they are 25.8" circumference for the fronts and 25.7" for the rears.

So what you're looking for is tires that are near that circumference on the new rim size at similar widths.

If you were to go with an 18x8.5" front and a 18x9.5" rear you could run:

Front: 245/40ZR18
Rear: 275/35ZR18

This would give you a 25.8" tire in the front and a 25.7" tire in the rear. That's the exact same circumference. The bonus is now both tires are seated on a rim at the "measured width" for that tire. Meaning your running the tire on the exact width rim that it was built to run.

If you go with a 8.5" front and a 10" rear, you're going to wind up with a P295 in the rear. That's going to give you a 26.1" tall tire and a 50mm stagger, which is going to make the car trammel a lot.

That's just my $.02, your mileage may vary.

Or stop being picky and get different brands for front and rear.

That is dangerous advice. Mixing brands is usually not a good idea, you can get radically different handling characteristics out of tires like that, even ones with the same rating.

 

[Koenigturbo]

The reason you're having problem is the range between the wheels is too big. You should consider a 9" wide wheel for the front or a 9.5" for the rear. Personally I'd go for a 9.5" rear.

What you want to do is stay as close to the circumference of the wheel you're replacing.

Let's say for example, your tires are currently:

Front: 245/45/R17
Rear: 275/40/R17

If you look up those size tires with Kuhmo for the Ecsta MX line, you'll find that they are 25.8" circumference for the fronts and 25.7" for the rears.

So what you're looking for is tires that are near that circumference on the new rim size at similar widths.

If you were to go with an 18x8.5" front and a 18x9.5" rear you could run:

Front: 245/40ZR18
Rear: 275/35ZR18

This would give you a 25.8" tire in the front and a 25.7" tire in the rear. That's the exact same circumference. The bonus is now both tires are seated on a rim at the "measured width" for that tire. Meaning your running the tire on the exact width rim that it was built to run.

If you go with a 8.5" front and a 10" rear, you're going to wind up with a P295 in the rear. That's going to give you a 26.1" tall tire and a 50mm stagger, which is going to make the car trammel a lot.

That's just my $.02, your mileage may vary.

Or stop being picky and get different brands for front and rear.

That is dangerous advice. Mixing brands is usually not a good idea, you can get radically different handling characteristics out of tires like that, even ones with the same rating.

Talk about a "good" answer,.. well, that's "good" answer, that's the answer I'm looking for
Thanks
Mike

 

[mkiii222]

That is dangerous advice. Mixing brands is usually not a good idea, you can get radically different handling characteristics out of tires like that, even ones with the same rating.

Never had a single problem with different tires front/rear running AutoX, RallyX, or going up and down the dragons tail. Many professional race teams will run different compounds front/rear.

Not to mention that even across the same model, two differently sized tires are very likely to have different ratings/compounds.

Now different tires on the same axle is a whole other story, I would never condone that.

 

[Supracentral]

Many professional race teams will run different compounds front/rear.

That's not what we're talking about. We're talking about an owner on this site who's asking basic questions about staggered wheels. If he's asking questions about rim/tire sizes, he's not going to be well versed in the topics needed to review mixing different brands of tires, compounds and treads.

I did lots of things as a professional crew chief that I would never suggest the owner of a street car do.

I gave him a complete answer he can use, 100% of the time, without worry of completely screwing himself up. It's an answer he will get excellent results from, just about every time.

As for your anecdotal evidence, what you've run up and down Deal's Gap with is irrelevant. I run R-compounds on the street. I don't suggest other people do so. Even when I reviewed them here on the site, I went to great lengths to describe the potential problems of running them:

http://www.supramania.com/forums/showthread.php?t=42821

Your answer, is technically 100% correct, it's also more likely than not to be dangerous since it's incomplete, and doesn't effectively take the target audiences experience and skill level into account...

 

[mkiii222]

That's not what we're talking about. We're talking about an owner on this site who's asking basic questions about staggered wheels. If he's asking questions about rim/tire sizes, he's not going to be well versed in the topics needed to review mixing different brands of tires, compounds and treads.

I did lots of things as a professional crew chief that I would never suggest the owner of a street car do.

I gave him a complete answer he can use, 100% of the time, without worry of completely screwing himself up. It's an answer he will get excellent results from, just about every time.

As for your anecdotal evidence, what you've run up and down Deal's Gap with is irrelevant. I run R-compounds on the street. I don't suggest other people do so. Even when I reviewed them here on the site, I went to great lengths to describe the potential problems of running them:

http://www.supramania.com/forums/showthread.php?t=42821

Your answer, is technically 100% correct, it's also more likely than not to be dangerous since it's incomplete, and doesn't effectively take the target audiences experience and skill level into account...

Didn't know this was a pissing contest. I'll be sure to whip out my credentials and write a novel every time I give an answer on your site.

BTW, Most people are more than willing to get whatever is available and end up with mismatched sets of tires. Tire stores allow it because unless the tires are being driven at limit it won't make a big enough difference to matter. And if they are being driven that hard, the question wouldn't have come up at all.

 

[Supracentral]

Didn't know this was a pissing contest. I'll be sure to whip out my credentials and write a novel every time I give an answer on your site.

Get the sand out of your vagina. I wasn't attacking you or engaging in a pissing contest, nor asking for your credentials. I was illustrating a point, if you can't handle someone disagreeing with you, just move on and people will take the posts for what they are worth.

BTW, Most people are more than willing to get whatever is available and end up with mismatched sets of tires. Tire stores allow it because unless the tires are being driven at limit it won't make a big enough difference to matter. And if they are being driven that hard, the question wouldn't have come up at all.

"Most people" don't drive 3,000+ lb sports cars making 200% to 300% of their original rated power.

Am I being a bit of purist on this? Yes, I am. Why? Because if differences in tire compound and performance are going to show up it's not going to be doing 35 mph taking grandma to church... It's going to be hooking around that corner when it's wet out. That tough corner that you've taken 1,000 times. The one where you pull it off every time because you know exactly what the car can do. Or you thought you did when all 4 tires matched... But now for some reason you're ass backwards in the woods.

So can you mix different brands of tires on the same car? In reality it depends on who you are and how you drive. My mom could probably pull it off without a hitch. Personally I wouldn't even try. I drive to far out on the ragged end.

One of the answers above is safe 100% of the time, the other is only safe under certain conditions and limits.

I'll leave it to the reader to determine which one they think is "correct".

 

[mkiii222]

How'd you know I was at the beach? :3d_frown:

What I was getting at is that mismatched tires on the same axle is a big disaster, but mismatched front/rear is fine.

If you look at treadwear/speed ratings on tires of the same model you will see what I'm talking about.

Take the example I listed of the Bridgestone RE760.
http://www.bridgestonetire.com/tireselector/SizeSpecs_BS_EN.aspx?Product_ID=2014
They did a good job of sticking to the same tread wear rating, but the service ratings vary quite a bit.

245/40/18 - 92W
275/35/18 - 95W

The whole lineup runs anywhere from 83-100. So different sized tires will handle differently. This is common for any tire model. I've seen several models where speed ratings change between various sizes (ed: Bridgestone RE050 PP, ranges from Y to W speed rating depending on size).

Even inexperienced drivers generally have no problem with handling running differently handling tires on each axle (within the same tire category ie Yokohama Parada Spec II up front w/the RE760 in the rear).

 

[mkiii222]

Did some 'homework' just now.

Every tire site with a 'tire safety' page lists the same 'general guidelines'.

Don't mix radial/nonradial.
Don't mix snow/all season.
Don't mix different tires on the same axle. (what I've been saying)
If mixing sizes front to rear, keep the lower profile on the rear.

They all agree that it is perfectly safe to run different tires on different axles.

What you do is your business. Yes, in a perfect world we would all run 4 matching tires and every country would have licensing procedures like Germany.

Again, I'm not trying to give out bad info. If I don't know something I do know how to keep my mouth shut. I'd much rather sit back and learn something than give out bad info to make myself look cool.

 

[Supracentral]

And then you could try this:

http://tinyurl.com/oubbpr

And clicking the first result gets you this in the first paragraph:

As a general rule, tires should not be mixed on any vehicle unless specified as acceptable by the tire or vehicle manufacturer. Drivers should avoid mixing tires with different tread patterns, internal constructions or sizes, and use identical tires on all of their vehicle's wheel positions in order to maintain the best control and stability. Additionally, drivers should never mix winter tires with all-season/summer tires, or mix run-flat tires with non-run-flat tires.

The other results have similar statements.

In general, aside from my own experience, my research shows that most actually recommend that mixing tires is completely undesirable and should only be done if unavoidable.

Are we just going to keep beating this dead horse?

::fundy::

Like I said, your advice is acceptable for minivan owners. We don't cater to those here.

I've presented my side and I stand by my statements in this thread. I'm done debating it.

 

[Koenigturbo]

Supracentral: "If you go with a 8.5" front and a 10" rear, you're going to wind up with a P295 in the rear. That's going to give you a 26.1" tall tire and a 50mm stagger, which is going to make the car trammel a lot."

I didn't go to college, what's "trammel"? I looked in "Webters new world Dictionary" It says ' Any of serveral divice's for aligning or adjusting parts of a machine. 2) to entangle, confine, shackle or restrain. .. a fishing net.

295 in the rear?? which series? 35's 40's?

 

[Supracentral]

I didn't go to college, what's "trammel"? I looked in "Webters new world Dictionary" It says ' Any of serveral divice's for aligning or adjusting parts of a machine. 2) to entangle, confine, shackle or restrain. .. a fishing net.

Sorry, it's more commonly referred to as tramlining.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tramlining

It's when your directional control is interfered with by tire ruts. Staggered setups are prone to it. The larger the stagger, the worse the tramlining.

Having a 50mm difference between front and rear wheel widths is going to make it pretty severe. Some people find cars that do it dangerous to drive. I can compensate for it myself, but it is VERY annoying in a car driven on the street.

At high speeds it can be damned terrifying and downright dangerous if it is severe.

295 in the rear?? which series? 35's 40's?

A 295/35ZR18 would give you the 26"+ tall tire in the Brand/Model we were using as a reference. Most other manufacturers should be close.

 

[mkiii222]

Are we just going to keep beating this dead horse?

Like I said, your advice is acceptable for minivan owners. We don't cater to those here.

I've presented my side and I stand by my statements in this thread. I'm done debating it.

At this point it's up to the reader as I stand by my statements as well. Not just for minivan/camry owners but for any car. I think anyone else wondering about it should do their own reading.

Short version of my side: Mixing is fine if you know what you're picking. Don't just grab two varying sets and call it a day then go out and push the car to it's limit.

And yes, tramlining is extremely dangerous on any street driven car. Most performance cars will exhibit a small amount which is easily controlled.

The following sizes are 30mm apart and available in Bridgestone's RE960
275/35/18 = 25.6"
245/40/18 = 25.7"

:Edit so I don't get labeled as a Bridgestone rep (although I do like them):
Yokohama AD08:
235/40/18 = 25.3"
265/35/18 = 25.3"

Kumho SPT KU31:
275/35/18 = 25.6"
245/40/18 = 25.7"

Spec sheets can be found at every manufacturers web page. Just find a tire/brand you like and look it up.
:End Edit:

Quick conversion formula:
((width * profile * 2)/ 25.4) + rim size = height
width = 1st number (mm width of tire)
profile = 2nd number (percentage so put a . in front)
rim size = 3rd number (" height of rim)
height = overall tire height

The 2 comes from there being 2 sidewalls in the height, the 25.4 is the conversion to inches.

Staying with a close overall height gives you a close sidewall height. This gives you similar turn in handling on all four corners when using the same model tire.
It also gives less stagger no matter the brand. And while it may look cool, like SC already pointed out it adds to the tram effect which is a bad, bad thing. Even if you can compensate for it, it will wear you down faster and is still undesirable.

 

[jdub]

What I was getting at is that mismatched tires on the same axle is a big disaster, but mismatched front/rear is fine.
<edit>
Even inexperienced drivers generally have no problem with handling running differently handling tires on each axle (within the same tire category ie Yokohama Parada Spec II up front w/the RE760 in the rear).

Again, I'm not trying to give out bad info. If I don't know something I do know how to keep my mouth shut. I'd much rather sit back and learn something than give out bad info to make myself look cool.

Short version of my side: Mixing is fine if you know what you're picking. Don't just grab two varying sets and call it a day then go out and push the car to it's limit.
<edit>
And yes, tramlining is extremely dangerous on any street driven car. Most performance cars will exhibit a small amount which is easily controlled.

I'm going to throw my 2 cents in. You went from a very general statement to a "do it if you know what you are doing". With various other info that was both good and bad. The bad started when you said you do it during auto-X and it was fine to do in general.

SupraCentral was trying to keep to specific applications that will work for even the most inexperienced driver. You are throwing in "ifs" when confronted with the facts.

Sometimes things like this do require writing, as you say, a "novel" and not just a general statement that essentially says "I do it, so it must be fine". That is exactly the way guys get into trouble with this car...they do not know the underlying reason something is done or the logic behind it.

It would be a good idea for you to write that "novel" next time, or do what you say above...keep your mouth shut.

 

[mkiii222]

It would be a good idea for you to write that "novel" next time, or do what you say above...keep your mouth shut.

If you had taken the time to actually read:

And if they are being driven that hard, the question wouldn't have come up at all.

IE, if anyone reading this is that inexperienced I figured they'd be on SF. (either that or natural selection will take over eventually anyway)

The OP was asking a simple question and I replied with a simple answer to start, got flac for it, and decided to start on the novel.
I never backed down and threw 'ifs'. What I meant by the above statement was the same 'if' I 'threw' out there.

All in all nobody is butt hurt about it. He told me to lose the sand and I asked how he knew I was at the beach. Sounds like you've been there lately too.

 

[jdub]

The only person that's been to the beach is you sport...probably Ft De Soto with lots of sea shell fragments in the sand

You're right, you didn't back down...that is obvious (even when confronted with good info). What you did do is attempt to justify your position when confronted...not very well I might add, and looks a heck of a lot like a duck-and-cover. I'm confident anyone that reads this will see it.

That said, this has turned into a pissing contest and the OPs question has been answered. This thread is closed.