Tolerance

[Mark3Supraholic]

It's been awhile since I've been here. My Supra still progresses slowly (as in it doesn't). No this post is not about race. This is about engineering tolerances. I recently had a discussion with a friend of mine about some of the main reasons why GM can't compete in the current market in terms of reliability and build quality. I summed it up as saying for the past decade or so, GM has half-assedly built cars. He posted it somewhere (he won't tell me yet) and got some interesting replies. He said the discussion then delineated into a Chevy Vs Dodge debate so forget it. Anyway, what I basically said was that companies like Toyota and Honda generally design their vehicles with a wider tolerance range. Like say +- .002 instead of +-.0001. The vehicle is designed to be put together with that tolerance range and subsequently is put together "better" with tigher gaps and less chance for error. My friend said someone in the medical industry who was an "engineer" posted that their machines create pieces with a very precise tolerance spec of .00005 or something and argued that if they can do that, GM shouldn't have a problem. My reasoning behind my argument would then be that machinery used to create vehicles, while having good precision still can make mistakes. EG, if the machine can make things within a tolerance level of .001 and the tolerance spec is .0009 the machine fails because the spec is too small. But if the tolerance spec is .001 all is well right? Wrong. Machinery can have minute errors because just because it's .001 doesn't mean its perfectly on that line. When the japanese car companies design it, they try to ensure that the expected range of the machinery and supplies is within the range of their specs. Someone please chime in on this whether you agree or disagree and why or if you need clarification.

On a side note, GM needs to fire the board, the CEO, COO, and dismantle and replace the UAW. Or at least the UAW needs to re-structure itself. Why the UAW? They help make it increasingly harder for manufacturers to try to turn out good products. But the manufacturers have to meet them halfway and stop ballooning the damn CEO's take every year. Put more of that money into vehicle development and quality control. As an engineering student, I hope I don't get overconfident in my engineering abilities in the future so as to minimize mistakes. If your mistakes costs lives, your career as an engineer is pretty much done. But making mistakes about the manufacturing technology? That's not something experienced engineer's should do IMO. I've always learned all departments have to work together to create a good product or service taking into accounts things like cost, materials, etc. Only after this is done, then can you think about PROFIT.

 

[IJ.]

Tried to read it but the lack of paragraphs made my brain explode 1/4 way through sorry

 

[bobiseverywhere]

i read your post and for the most part i agree with you.

I would not say that the Engineers at GM are any less experienced or seasoned then the ones at Toyota. I think it all comes down to Money. For GM or any of the Big three in the US to work to tighter tolerances and make better car all comes down to cost and mind set.

The US companies have a mind set to build a cheaper car then the other brands out there to win on price. how do you win on price?
You can buy cheaper car parts. That would be a check
you can work to less of a tolerance for the parts you need. Another check
and i am sure there is lots more.

I am sure the engineers do great work but then the cost saving come sin and destroys allot of what they do dream and believe. It's a dark and grim side to reality and business. People create great things but due to how we think as a society today we destroy allot of that even before we give it a try.

I am not an engineer, but i can say i was thinking about going into mechanical engineering. I ended up changing my mind since i realized that what ever i do, i will always be working for someone else and that person will have final say over my ideas, designs and what ever else i create. So i started my own little business instead.

That is neither here or there.

Bottom line is all the Car companies have great Engineers who work to the tightest tolerances and great ideas. It just comes down to who they work for. What pride those people have in what they produce and what there mind set is.

 

[mcpcola]

why build better cars when most people will replace them in a few years anyway. They build them to outlast the warranty buy just a little bit so it doesn't cost them money and you will need to replace it soon after. Its dollars and cents.

 

[bobiseverywhere]

dead on

it's not about great engineering it all about the bottom line.

Maybe you could call it great engineering to make a car last a specific amount of years and then thats it. Many companies refer to this as Quality Control

 

[mcpcola]

Lets look at it like this If Willie Wonka produced the Everlasting Gobstopper then no one would ever need any more gum. Same with cars why should i sell you a car that will run for ever when i can sell you several cars that will last a short time. This example is not to say a company like Honda Toyota or Nissan don't try to build the best car they can for the money. Prime example Toyota is know for overengineering cars like my should your 7m bottom end be strong enough to hold huge HP numbers all Toyota had to due was use materials just strong enough to last at 230hp.

 

[bobiseverywhere]

that’s very true and a sad but true by-product of our society

as far as Toyota over engineering that is correct but Toyota is not American is my point different views and beliefs about how a product should be and where they make there money. On that same note Toyota Manufacturers allot more cars now in North America as opposed to those Days where almost all where made in Japan. That is where you have to look at the Japanese mind set as a whole, versus the American mindset it is very different.

As far as the Engine comment for Toyota we will see if there New Supra will hold up to the old standards of over engineering. I believe at the low price point everyone is talking about it will be built just to do what it says it does and that is it. I find it sad but it is the reality of what we have done to our own way of thinking and creating a global village and mindset. We loose allot of those things that define all our different nations to make one giant complacent nation

Sorry for all that but i feel that is the major issue behind everything that goes on today. Not to say that a global village is all bad but there is good and bad to everything. The reason why toyota can still make quality engines now that last for a very long time is that they already did all the leg work previously to make that posible as other companies did not...
( i.e. the american Manufacturers)

either way its always about money many things can be made to last allot longer then they actually do but no company wants that. It's bad for Business.

 

[Mark3Supraholic]

Yeah everytime I argue with my buddy about why one company does one thing this way or another I always say it boils down to money. Interesting thing to note, according to one of my professors, the Average Japanese auto-company CEO makes less than 1 million per year. Still in Japan, that's alot of money. But in the US? More to the tune of 10million. With big namer's like Rick Wagoner pulling in almost 20mil. And last year he gave himself an EXTRA 2 million dollar "bonus". There's more details, but the basics of my argument stand. I've always believed that the engineer's were ALWAYS just as capable, but were held back by the bean counters. All the new GM motors are slowly evolving, yes, but if GM were to fully develop all new motors to match or exceed those from the Japanese, a Cobalt with a high-revving, hi-hp I4 would probably balloon to nearly 30K maybe. But some argue that hey, the Japanese have all this racing tech so they must be superior in engine development, right? The "stupid " americans are stuck in Nascar and drag racing. Thinking that those types of motorsports have no engine development whatsoever would be a mistake. However, with GM entries in the Daytona Protoype series, and a very powerful Corvette and years of racing heritage from years past in such areas like the Cadillac LMP's, it's not as if GM doesn't know a thing or two about racing. It's just cost.. cost cost cost... Toyota builds cars that have a reputation of lasting long, and in doing so have done what American companies have not: build a rep that not many can dispute.

 

[mcpcola]

It comes down to Culture Americans are high price disposable by nature we use and discard with out regard to money or enviroment while in Japan they believe in making use of everything that they have and the also believe in a high standard. Funny that this topic comes down to domestic VS import cause GM is now using toyota to build alot of there motors and trannies. Toyota also builds cars to Japanese spec due to the Shake test that they have to go through while in america you can drive just about anything with a title that rolls.

 

[bobiseverywhere]

mcpcola: you are very right about allot of that but think about other things yes allot of companies go to others to get there engines now. But on the other hand there are still many other components to a car.

Mark3Supraholic: I dont think the Japanese and there racing heritage have to do with there engine life. Also i would still say that when you look at it. Mant foreign engines are capable of great power numbers at smaller displacment then there american counterparts. Only including NA engines turbos and super charges create to much of a variable. Adversly uualy you will find a US made engine to be have more tourque on the bottom end. One again mindset. Just like the CEO Salary you mentioned it's just the different ways people think.

Also if you look into some top end racing such as the WRC or F1 Almost everyone in it is actually British maybe not the drivers but team support development and many other aspects to the support of all that. The British as shocking as it is have made a gigantic contribution to the continuing development of racing technology. Not to say no one else has but the majority of the behind the sceense people are british in those sports as well as other i am told.

 

[mcpcola]

well to me no matter who make GM cars they will be crap. They are cheap GM has always be know for their cheap materials like plastic dashes and thin seats.