The WeezL needs some electrical help!

[Facime]

are all your grounds hooked up? the rats nest of grounds hooked up to the intake manifold? the ground wire from the back side of the head to the firewall? the large ground from the battery to the block?

Yes, I checked all my grounds and in fact decided to make some new ones and add those in as well. I was careful when I rebuilt it not to get paint or anything on the ground locations or wires. I recleaned them today, and added a strap from the intake manifold to the body. The only one I havent triple checked is the one at the back of the trans. I feel comfortable that the grounds are not a problem.

after that you say you are getting a CEL... no codes however?

CEL on crank but no code stored, correct.


have you checked the relay JJ is talking about? what about the main relay? IGN fuse good? stock alarm not giving you problems? also if its sputtering are you sure you have the CPS in correctly? and not 180 degrees off?

Had the CPS out a bunch of times now and Im positive its not 180 off. I double checked for COR clicking and it does. While spinning the CPS by hand I hear the COR click and the fuel pump relay kicks on. I had a bag of main relays from various part outs so I tried a couple others, no change. All fuses are fine.

just a bunch of stupid shit to get an idea where youre at....

Im currently at this point: The Battery is charged, the CPS is out so I can spin it by hand, and I have a low resistance spare plug wire connected to an ignition tester. (a little gap similator that makes checking for spark easy). I currently get spark off 3 of the 6 coils. The right side of each coil will spark to a gap as wide as .5", the other side wil not spark at all to any gap.

When everything is connected back up, the car wants to try to start now. It does act like its firing on half the cyls, but it will not keep running without the starter pushing it.


I didnt have any way (or money for that matter) to take the car to a shop today. I am being stubborn and have a hard time believing I cant logic this out.

 

[cjsupra90]

Not 100% sure about the toyota coils, but most wastespark coils have to have both leads hooked up at the same time to have spark on both plugs. On a typical wastespark system, the spark will jump from the electrode to the ground strap on one plug and from the ground stap to the electric on the other. (if filmed with a high speed camera, this can be seen)

Try connecting two extra plugs to the two wires from one coil and and connect them together with a clap (like the picture below) or use two of the ignition testes (if they are the type that I am assuming: aligator cliped to ground type) and see if both plugs fire @ the same time.

 

[cwapface]

update: he's getting spark on every right side of the coil, but nada on the left. aka, cylinders 6, 4, 5. Nothing on 1, 3, or 2.

I thought the ECU fired each cylinder once per crank revolution, so when #6 is at the correct point for ignition, #1 is also fired?!?!?!?!

 

[Idealsupra]

I thought the ECU fired each cylinder once per crank revolution, so when #6 is at the correct point for ignition, #1 is also fired?!?!?!?!

correct... 6+1, 3+4, 2+5

 

[johnathan1]

Yes, the spark system works in groups of two.

 

[jetjock]

Hmmm. In theory since the secondary doesn't operate as a DC series circuit one plug should continue to fire even if it's companion is open. You could also mount the second plug in another engine with no connection between the two cars (other than the single plug wire) and both plugs would fire.

You're right about polarity. One plug's center electrode is positively charged with respect to the cylinder head while the other is negatively charged. The positive discharge is from the ground to center electrode while the negative discharge is from center to ground.

 

[cjsupra90]

Eric, I am not saying that what you said is wrong anything like that, but looking at the diagram on pages 10 and 11 of this link ( http://www.autoshop101.com/forms/h23.pdf ) it does seam that it is in a DC series circuit according to the diagram on page 10 and being that there is a diode on the secondary circuit. Looking at the diagram on 11 it seems to me to explain the reason that 4, 5, and 6 will fire cause they are on the out of the seconadary (if that makes sense) and 1, 2, and 3 are on the return. So if the coil out leads have a ground path then they work fine, but the returns will not work without the outs hooked up.

The other reason that I say that they both have to be hooked up and to the same ground (head, block, or each other) is that when I had my Electromotive EMS on my RX-7, it used 4 GM DIS coils (which also have that same diode circuit setup) had to have one coil terminal hooked to a particular plug and the other wired to the block of the motor. Now I know that part of that reason is so that the other doesn't arc, but according to electomotive, depending on which coil terminal you have hooked to a particular plug, if the other terminal is not grounded to the block, then the plug may not fire. I'd assume that it was for that same reason cause the return wont fire without the out side being there.

I could and very well might be totally wrong here though and if so, could you explain to me how I am wrong. I feel that I have a pretty good knowledge of electronic circuits, but by now means and expert or pro at or about them.

 

[jetjock]

I've read enough to know you're electrically fluent so I'm not saying you're wrong either. That's why I said "in theory".

It may be wired like one but I said it doesn't operate like a DC series circuit. The thing is you're looking at it like it is one, needing a return path. That may well be the case here. I was deferring to the Snap On DLI manuals that came with my scope. They show the exact same coil wiring as what we have but claim neither it nor other DLI operates as a series circuit in that the head is not a return path.

It serves as nothing more than a large reservoir of equal protons and electrons ie; it's electrically balanced. They claim the plasma requires no return path. That's why the plugs will fire in different engines. It's due to a large enough charge differential between the electrically neutral ground electrodes in the cylinder head and the positive or negatively charged center electrodes on the plugs. Think lightning.

Now if the plugs aren't connected to the head ie; they haven't that charge imbalance, than it will act like a series circuit. In that case it would certainly require a return path. That may be where we're getting our theories crossed. I'd also point out if it is acting like a series circuit why is Weezl now getting spark off one side? Fwiw the books also state one plug will fire with it's companion open circuited. If I'm understanding his posts that's what he has. If I'm understand you that shouldn't be happening with the other side open right? Or am I confused? It is late and I'm tired.

I'm open to being corrected but I've always found Snaps On stuff to be very comprehensive and accurate. These scope manuals go into quite a bit of detail about DLI. That said I've never tried an open secondary firing on this engine (bad for the coils) so I (they) may well be wrong. I'll for sure check it out with the scope or a timing light when I get back. I'll also take one of my spare packs and and trigger it on the bench across a couple of spark gaps to take the head out of the equation.

If you're right I'll be the first one to admit it and be happy I learned something. It'll teach me to put less stock in the books, even those from an outfit like Snap On. Either way I don't see what Weezl's problem could be at this point and he should try what you're suggesting. He couldn't have that many bad packs.

It's Gary btw

 

[Facime]

Ok, even though your electricl theory discussion is facinating, its all over my head. I triple checked the condition today and attempted to rule out variables.

With only 1 coil hooked to the ignitor, and that coil having high tension leads hooked to it, one going to a plug grounded in the head (installed) and the other going to an ignition tester, I indeed verified that some of my coils were producting spark on the right side and not the left (after testing one way, I simply switched the high tension leads on the coil and tried again, and produced spark out of only one side of the coil). I had 6 coils to try and low and behold found 3 coils that would indeed spark both sides (ironically, it was my 3 original coils).

BUT...I still have a "no start" condition.


Well guys, its hard for me to admit this but my repair skills have met their match. I NEED this car running, and I need it soon, so I bit the bullet and called a tow truck and just got done dropping it off at a dealership (For lack of knowing who else I could take it to here, I think I can at least trust Toyota to not scam me...though I dont suspect it will be cheap).

So, I'll know more in a couple days, but its out of my hands now.