SERIOUS car problem

[Figit090]

like boost said, its fairly easy to see how the alternator is adjusted.

there is the main pivot bolt on the top-left where it bolts to the engine, this doesnt need to be touched unless the last person to tighten it really made it tight (the alternator wont want to pivot until you loosen this, if its too tight).

below the alternator there is a metal track that has a long bolt next to it with a small nut, in the link i gave you he labels this as the tension bolt (its a long bolt with a nut). the alternator is adjusted by loosening the bolt that threads into the bottom of the alternator (called the swivel bolt on that site) and turning the tension nut that is on the long bolt so it threads up or down, tightening or loosening the belt by pivoting the alternator. its hard to explain with just words. make sure you click the pictures on that link to view them and associate the parts with his description.

spinning the belt isnt really bad, but i figured it would be very difficult so i said dont try it (its a waiste of energy and time) you could get a socket and turn the crankshaft pulley but you wont really learn anything until you remove the alternator belt.

you dont have to remove all the belts unless you intend on starting the car or changing the fan belt, in which case you have to remove the AC belt and thats easy.

 

[canadian]

I removed the Alt. belt that attaches to the water pump too.
I couldn't get the fan off, but I spun it on the water pump and it moved freely.
With the belt off the alt. too I tried spinning it too and it spun fine. CCW it was perfect. CW it made a slight rubbing sound like something dragging inside the actual unit...not sure if thats what the brushes normally do?

I have come to a poor conclusion that my PS pump that has the pulley attached to the main large double pulley set up is closed to seized and since the alt/water pump is attached to the same large main pulley it created friction and prevented the other belt from moving freely and made the fan stop turning constantly. This would also be why my power steering wasn't working and made it hard to turn the wheel....
Am I close to correct? Since the water pump and alt. both spin freely it must be the PS one?

I am intimidated (lol) by the PS one because that website said this one was a PITA to remove... I am going back out and will make my first attempt at taking it off.

Thanks!

---------------------------

------------EDIT-------------
-----------------------------

After making a stupid mistake I was on to taking the PS belt off. I loosened the adjusting nut at the front... and now have the car jacked up to see if I can loosen the nut at the back that I need in order for it to swivel... there is too much stuff its so hard to see. Any tips?

What should I do after I take the PS belt off and test that pulley too?

Should I still have the alt. tested even though it spins fine?


---------EDIT!______________

Okay I looked in the TSRM for steering under trouble shooting, and one of the "Possible cause" things is low resivoir level. Since I filled it up full now, should this remedy it?
Would this also cause the fan not to spin, or have I not solved my problem yet?

 

[Figit090]

before i go on, please try and keep your posts condensed into one...it helps the readers. if you must differenciate you can use something like "----EDIT---" where your post has changed and type the new after that.... with multiple posts its more difficult to reference what you said.

did you spin the PULLEY behind the fan? make sure you do this, i'm checking because you said you spun the fan...its possible the pump could still not be turning.

your conclusion has an error. look at this picture just to make sure you know exactly what each pulley does
PS- power steering pump
CR- crankshaft - it's all powered by this one
IP- Idler pulley
AC- Air Conditioning
AL- alternator
WP- water pump
some are obvious but i dont want any confusion.

If your power steering pump seised up, it would not directly stop the fan beacause the crankshaft pulley supplies power to everything, it is the same exact shaft that is putting power to your drivetrain out the back of the engine so unless you stop your engine, this pulley will NOT stop. any problem stopping the fan has to be a problem with the water pump, alternator or crankshaft pulley. since your engine runs, its not the CS pulley.

the main pulley has 3 pulleys, not two (you referred to a double pulley, dont worry though, if you are new to this, it will take several looks under there for the visual images of the engine bay to stick in your brain.

before you remove the PS belt check the water pump again, make sure you turn the pulley, not just the fan. they are seperate parts and when cold, the fan clutch is disengaged and the fan will rotate independantly of the water pump in order to heat the engine from cold and save energy when not needed.

i can help with the power steering bolt, i acces it from above and have never tried it from below. i believe i used an extension an and a 14mm socket (same bolt size as in front). but mine was already loose enough to move with moderate pressure on the front adjusting bolt to slide it toward the drivers side, loosening the belt. so if you havent, try moving the pump without loosening anything. i'll give you specifics if you need them on finding the bolt. it is difficult to see.

-------------EDIT!---------------

when you fan stopped, did it slow, or completely stop and not move at all?

also, the fluid levels of your car should be one of the first things to check unless you know somewhere else to look for a problem, and i cant say if filling it full again will fix it...you would probably have to start the engine to find that out.

 

[canadian]

Sorry about all the posts...I just wanted to quote what you said..I will do it differently in the future...

Tomorrow I will take the fan off and spin the water pump... then I will go from there.

Yeah I am new to this sort of stuff, especially on this particular car. I am used to trucks.
Mymistake with the pulleys, I must have missed the 3rd one.

When I spun the water pump pulley alone (holding the fan) it worked fine, but I will confirm this when it is off tomorrow.

How did you access the back bolt on the PS pump from above? There are so many parts, I can't see how you could fit anything in there...but I am new to this sort of thing so I may just be overlooking an easy solution.

When I noticed the fan wasn't working properly, it didn't COMPLETELY stop, but rather spin very slowly and hesitating just something was binding it...

I checked the fluid before and it looked fine, but I may have not looked at it closely enough. Maybe I will put everything back together and test it first, although I highly doubt that will solve my problem.

I will report back tomorrow...

What should I do about the alt.? Wait until I find out about the WP or should I have it tested just for assurance?

Thanks, sorry for the long post.


-----EDIT--------

I deleted my other posts and edited it into one large post above.

 

[Figit090]

thanks for condensing it. you can try quoting my whole post or combine several into one post using the html tags...

the back bolt can be reached with a an extension bar on the socket and a socket wrench, and all this is done with the intake removed. you might be able to do it with the intake there but...you might be forced to go from below if you dont remove the intake pipes (just the plastic leading to the throttle body.

in this pic you can see the bolt, and the mount that it goes through that you see is directly bolted to the block, and its upright. so with the intake removed, and a flashlight you should be able to find it. take your time. i'll look for a photo of mine but i highly doubt i have one. the photo on that cygnus site i gave you (and posted in this post) is of a turbo engine and the components around it are different than on your non-turbo engine. so dont worry if you dont see all that other crap.

since you have a grinding in the alternator i'd have it checked after you check the water pump, so you know its ok. it is free according to someone...so its just getting the alternator there for testing is your issue. did you feel resistance when it made the noise? or just noise? mine just spun freely with no noise or resistance, but i've only played with one or two...so i dont know the norm. something HAS to be funny with it or the water pump pulley... the fan cant just slow down like that... so i'd just check the WP pulley/ouptup and then go from there.

you can test it without taking the fan off, but you'll have less in the way if the fan is removed and it might be eaiser that way anyway..so whatever you think is best for you. dont damage your radiator during fan removal. they pulley will come loose with the fan as well for future reference.

 

[canadian]

When the alt. made the noise I felt a bit of resistance, I THINK. I will check later and confirm this.

You made a mistake, I do in fact have a 7mgte... as stated in my first post (87 supra turbo 5spd)... So I will have a mess still.

I will take the fan off, its been off before when I replaced it (car came with fan w/ 1 missing blade...would this affect the water pump?) Then I will beable to find out the condition of the water pump.

Thanks for the help with the PS bolt I need to remove...I think I have a better idea of it now that I can take the intake piping off.

thanks

 

[canadian]

Well I checked the water pump again and it seems to spin fine.

We are currently trying to get the power steering belt off...which is being a real PITA...

MORE BAD NEWS>..
I put everything back together after checking the water pump and go to start it up and this KNOCKing starts up...
We are going to check if its the PS pump making the noise...if not...it looks like I may have rod(s) knocking... :icon_mad:

 

[canadian]

WELL>..
as if things couldn't get any worse...it is rod knock. Its way louder than the fuel injectors sounded before, so its not them.
Need a new plan now...

Well I checked the water pump again and it seems to spin fine.

We are currently trying to get the power steering belt off...which is being a real PITA...

MORE BAD NEWS>..
I put everything back together after checking the water pump and go to start it up and this KNOCKing starts up...
We are going to check if its the PS pump making the noise...if not...it looks like I may have rod(s) knocking... :icon_mad:

EDIT:-----------------------------------
Well could rod knock be connected to a BHG too? Explaining the hissing sound I heard from around the radiator? The water pump spun fine when I spun it with the fan (I looked and could see the whole thing rotating...) so it can't be that?

 

[Figit090]

well now i dont have any idea. how do you know it's rod knock? i have a disheartening knock sound on startup but determined its my clutch. i found this out when i heard a substancial difference in sound when i took my foot OFF the pedal. my un-educated guess (i dont know jack about clutches yet) would be a bearing.... i first thought OH NO rod knock but the sound has mostly gone away and is totally gone or very very quiet now...enough that i cant just assume rod knock.

I would help but frankly your problems just went over my head. if everything spins fine i cant say what it could be. for all i know maybe you got a rock in your belt and it stopped the fan. or maybe you have a bad fan shroud and it caught on the fan. i have no idea. if the engine was idling fine at the time then i dont see how rod knock could do this, and rod knock, as far as i know, doesnt slow your engine. it only beats the crap out of itself...which can cause sudden failure and THEN you'll see everything quickly stop.

how did you hear the sound? sitting in the car or with you ear against a stick touching the block? or did you just hear a mystery sound and go "oh shit rod knock" like i did?

some say rod knock is directly connected with a BHG in the fact that moisture from coolant getting in the oil gets in the rod bearings, and the lack of lubrication kills them, then rod knock becomes apparent. have you done any BHG checks or fixes prior to this problem?

i heard hissing once with my BHG, i think it was excessive pressure (exaust gas) leaking out the cap. i didnt think much of it though so its hard to remember. my resuvoir was overflowing sometimes as well though.

if you arent sure about the power steering making this noise i guess you could remove the PS belt, and diagnose again. but someone besides me needs to step in here...i'm not a trained mechanic and i'm just trying to help so...

for one your problem is a little to vauge and i'm just throwing guesses every which way = not good. so i'm going to try and stop.

 

[canadian]

Sorry I am not very clear, like I have mentioned I am new to these sort of cars...

I heard the sound from inside the car, but also my moms boyfriend heard it while standing right beside the engine. He has a lot of experience working on older vehicles, as he used to be a mechanic, and he said it might be rod knock. He suggests I try driving it to a close by mechanic and have them diagnose the problem. That way we know exactly what is wrong.

After the first time we started it up we shut it down. He looked at a few things then I started it up again...it wasn't as loud, but didn't sound normal. So I can't assume its rod knock, but the first time I started it up, like mentioned, it was loud and very noticeable...not a ticking like injectors, but a knock. I don't know what else the knock could be... how could I test the clutch against the knock you mentioned you had?

I will look into BHG symptoms and see what I can find...

Thanks Figit for all your efforts, I wish you were closer and there was someway I could repay you for all your time trying to help me with my problems.

Here is my thread in the 7mgte section for my knocking sound...
http://www.supramania.com/forums/showthread.php?t=27090

---------EDIT---------------

I asked my moms boyfriend and he said the pulley for the PS pump spun fine. When we started the car without the PS pump hooked up it still made the noise.

 

[Figit090]

its no problem... really. i enjoy helping and i've had SO much help here just in the last year its not even funny. so if it makes you feel better think of it as repaying a debt.

i'll look at your other thread too.

sorry you cant find the problem, and i really dont know much about clutches, but i can say that there are several rod knock threads on here that describe it and you might not know what it is without diagnosing it or allowing the engine to continue to run and listening for a knock in higher RPMS. i have a knock on startup sometimes and with my clutch in, sometimes. search for "rod knock" or "knock" or "knocking sound"

thats why it worried me so much a while back, i'd start the car and keep the clutch depressed and hear this bad knocking sound and FEEL it though the pedal, floor, and shifter. so i was like...OMG no not now, not now. i just spent 700 bux and a LONG time working my ass off to get this?? noooooo.....

turns out it only makes the noise when i disengage the clutch (push the pedal in...just incase i mixed up the term with letting it up). so now i try and leave it in neutral, hit the clutch, start it, and release to avoid the knocking. usually helps. plus it made a racket around 2500-3000 rpm when increasing rpm's slowly....characteristic of rod-knock... BUT it went away with some clutch manipulation and ever since the BHG fix its gone quieter and quieter. i've stopped worrying. not worth getting my pants in a bunch anyway, it's just a car and not the end of my life if it breaks. it would be bad...but not so bad i should get too upset.

i'd research the rod knock and if you're taking it to a mechanic by DRIVING, see if the knock goes away at idle without moving the throttle or excessive revving. if it doesnt be careful what you decide to do...further driving isn't good.... and will only cost more when you fix it... if it is a rod knock. watch your oil pressure as well. make sure it climbs and gets in the normal range. (you'll have to research for what oil pressure is characteristic of rod knock...it's either really high, or severly low...probably low because that would CAUSE the knock...if not something else, but i cant remember so dont take either one until you find the answer somewhere else. i'd stop the engine in any circumstance if i didnt register and oil pressure though)

if it goes away, you might consider slowly increasing RPMs and listening for a knock. put it in neutral for this at first in case you have what i do. dont go beyong 3000RPM, but check for a knocking that starts around 2500 and stops at 3000. i believe thats the section that usually shows up first on our cars. i personally am not sure...but its what i've read. and if you're going to drive it, i dont think free-revving to the highest point you need while under a load and normally driving might save some wear... it will be better than hearing it when you're driving!

please search and read all you can and consider everything you read...and analyze opinions and knowledge carefully. some things might sound good but be wrong, so dont go out on the first reply and try something withougt further feedback, unless you really trust the person's knowledge. every once and a while i'd ask for help, go do what they said and come back to see that someone else said its a BAD idea.

so...just dont get to overwhelmed by the bad and keep thinking straight. if you think all is lost, it will make you feel bad and it doesnt help; so stop. i start acting stupid and careless when i think everything is going bad and if you get that way you might break something or hurt yourself.

and dont just consider what i say...i'm still learning and i try my best to say when i'm not sure about something...but i know that stuff can be missed.

and definatly get a mechanic to look at it if you can afford it. but then again...you should if you have a supra...lol.

 

[mkiiSupraMan18]

Sorry, just reading through all of this... Any update?

From the sound of things you've taken a LOT of hard routes to check something easy. But it sounds like you've learned a lot doing it so it all evened out.

Advance/Autozone/ wherever SHOULD have some sort of Alternator tester that you can take home with you that you connect to your battery terminals and test it w/ the car running and everything hooked up. If you're battery light is on, your alt is probably junk. An Alt on it's way out will give enough juice to last a while with normal driving, but mine only lasted me about 1 week or so (5 hours drive time)

As for the rodknock, there are quite a few noises that will sound like RK. I know of one car that only does it from like 800rpm-1200rpm and is fine otherwise. I've also heard quite a few people with loose crank pulley bolts say the same thing *really easy to check, just put a socket on it and try to loosen it up, if it turns that may have been your problem.* Did you check your oil? What color is it? If the car set for quite some time (2 years I recall you said...?) it may just be a stuck lifter, try adding 1/4 bottle of ATF to your oil. That will normally help fix a stuck lifter -it worked on my Cressida- because even if it IS RK, it's not like you're going to hurt anything. :icon_conf

As for the PS pump and taking the belt off : Two bolts and you should be done. If it was me and I was truly concerned that my PS pump was causing the problems and I couldn't get the belt off, I'd just cut it.

I'd just like to finish saying, I'm no expert. I don't claim to be and I don't even play one on TV. I just go from my own past experiences, thigns I've heard, and tricks I've learned from other people. And I'm really bored, so i just thought i'd see how things are going for you.

 

[Figit090]

just my .02 - if you cut a belt you have to pay 15-20 bux for a new one if you want that section of your engine to work again. and you'll still have to get the pulley to allow slack....so unless you plan on not using the AC or power steering...you're going to have to figure it out one way or another. (for some extra knowledge, if you dont power your PS it might make your steering very hard to turn without completely removing the system...i'm not sure)

but yeah...i want to know as well...any news?

 

[canadian]

Hey guys, sorry no report back yet, Calculus is really kicking my butt....
Haven't had any time at all to look into any of the problems. I'm really hoping it's not rod knock...but we will find out soon. I may have time on Friday to work on it but I am going out of town on the weekend so I'm not sure how quick I will work on it. Hopefully ASAP I will find an hour or so just to start diagnosing it.

Sorry for the wait...

Thanks tremendously for all the help!

 

[canadian]

UPDATE:

Well finally got a break tonight, no school tomorrow, so I spent a bunch of time taking that stupid brittle black plastic cover off the wires and checked it out. I went left to right...
Good news: Found the source of my knocking.
Bad news: It's coming from cylinder number 5

Each time I started it up the knock was there, finally on the last try (cyl. 5) it went away and I only heard it running rough, and a bit of noise from the wire trying to find a ground.

Now I am not sure how this connects with my steering problem and possible alternator problem. I will plan to take the alt. somewhere to test it beginning of next week to see if thats the source of the batt. light and e-brake light staying on, along with the repeated stalling.

Anyways I am not sure what to do next...I guess save money and overhaul the engine this winter? I have yet to do the BHG tests, as I did hear a bit of a hissing noise once and a while and not sure where its coming from... Those will be done soon.

Comments? Thanks for all the help.

Steve

 

[canadian]

bump. Anyone have any comments?

 

[Facime]

I would venture a guess and say that your PS or alternator went bad and partially siezed. This caused your belts to slip or stop spinning entirely, and this means your water pump was not circulating. This in turn overheated the engine, and when the water boiled over, you blew the head gasket and started the process towards rod knock as well. Repeated runnings while you were trying to fix thinks eventually spelled doom for the rod bearing and thats where you are at right now.

Its just a theory, but whatever the cause or sequence of events, it sounds like you need a motor rebuild now. sorry for your misfortune

 

[canadian]

That is a good theory. I guess I will pay off debt and start saving for a rebuild.
In the meantime I will check into getting my alt. checked and look at the PS pump again to further diagnose my problems.

Thanks

 

[canadian]

Haven't touched this car since the last time I posted in this thread.
Haven't done anything with it, I got a used speedo cable from a member SF and I will install it one day. Dash is torn apart from taking apart the cd player to put back into the truck.

I have a really bad leak in the hatch area from water, it sat outside in the rain for a few days then when I opened the hatch all I heard was water falling. Looked under the spare tire and there is a lake of water.
Went to a car wash when the car worked, and water leaked in at the top of the drivers/passenger door windows.

Still undecided about what to do...

Did you check your oil? What color is it? If the car set for quite some time (2 years I recall you said...?) it may just be a stuck lifter, try adding 1/4 bottle of ATF to your oil. That will normally help fix a stuck lifter -it worked on my Cressida- because even if it IS RK, it's not like you're going to hurt anything.

Would this work even if my lifter wasn't seized, then after I ran it, it decided to seize causing the knock? I replaced the oil before I drove it, so the oil is clean, looked normal colour.

Still have not had a chance to look into the alt. and the PS pump.
Thakns

 

[canadian]

HEY the problem car is back.

I finally got around to pulling the alternator and finding out there is a place in town to test that. Will do that tomorrow morning.

I may have found out one problem...

I was tinkering around with it tonight and just out of boredom opened the rad. cap. Well, it was dry. I pour some antifreeze/water mixture in and it takes maybe 1 litre of fluid. Plus the overflow tank is empty too.
So maybe I had a coolant leak I never noticed during the summer? Since my temp. gauge was almost useless (a wire or something was loose, it would only work 3/4 of the time) it may have overheated. That would explain all the steam.

On top of that, the car came with a jug of anti-freeze, or so I thought: It was full of water. Also, in the overflow tank it was CLEAR not a tinge of green in it.
So maybe the whole rad is full of water from the previous owner, and it couldn't keep the engine cool?