running so rich it could be I have NFI what I'm doing

monkihead

driven to thrill
Jul 23, 2005
93
0
0
texas
its soo bad i need a jug by the muffler to catch the gas spewing out(not litterally-but freaking close). I'm at a loss for what is going on.
Mods-
egr delete
copper head gasket .050 thick
ARP head studs
electric fan
aftermarket air filter w/adapter
after 1st cat 3in exhaust pipe

car was running okay with mild noticeable amount of power loss at 3-4k rpm. found the cps wires were frayed and replaced them. That cured a long cranking to a short crank to start car and help revving.

starts okay, idles perfect. idle to 2500-3k rpm is okay.
peak boost kicks in roughly around 2500-2600rpm.

THE PROBLEMS-
doesn't pull with more than half throttle
doesn't have power over 3500rpm in 2nd, 3rd or 4th.
dumping severely rich at half throttl(ish) at 3k rpm all the way through.
 

monkihead

driven to thrill
Jul 23, 2005
93
0
0
texas
stock boost gauge says I'm at 7psi. cheezy afr gauge says I'm pegged rich.

I do have a check engine light but its from a coolant temp sensor.

san antonio, tx
 

NewGen

New Member
Apr 6, 2007
799
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35
Norwalk, IA
monkihead said:
stock boost gauge says I'm at 7psi. cheezy afr gauge says I'm pegged rich.

I do have a check engine light but its from a coolant temp sensor.

san antonio, tx


Mines doing the exact same thing. Mines so bad it leaves a puddle of gas on the ground. From what i've read and who i've spoken to sounds like it could be your coolant sensor. It directly affects your air fuel mixture because your engine always thinks its cold so its always adding more fuel.
 

jdub

Official SM Expert: Motor Oil, Lubricants & Fil
SM Expert
Feb 10, 2006
10,730
1
38
Valley of the Sun
Frank Rizzo said:
So jet you are saying an ECT sensor that reads -40 degrees F at all times will not affect air/fuel ratio?


No...he's saying that a coolant sensor code indicates a failure of the sensor or it's circuit. In which case the ECU will use the fail-safe value of 80 deg C (176 deg F)...the min value for the ECU to come out of warm-up enrichment to normal ops mode. This should not cause the motor to run that rich ;)
 

jetjock

creepy-ass cracka
Jul 11, 2005
9,439
0
0
Redacted per Title 18 USC Section 798
No, I'm not saying that. But in this case that's not what's happening and in this engine it's unlikely to happen at all. Keep in mind I'm talking about a stock EFI system.

Many here mistakingly think the trim sensors (coolant, TPS, O2) on this engine are required to make it run properly. That's only true to a point. Like all trim sensors the coolant sensor is for emissions first and for tweaking mixture (along with idle speed) during "abnormal" conditions (such as when the engine is cold) second. In fact the entire EFI system is there mainly for emissions. Fact is the ECU is more than capable of keeping the mixture very close to what's needed when the engine is hot using nothing more than accurate airflow and rpm input. After all, carbs can do it. What a carb or an EFI system without trim can't do is keep it tight enough for maximum catalyst efficiency.

Many also forget the ECU will correct for false sensor input. After all, what good would the system be if it ran the engine very poorly or even stranded you every time a sensor went bad? From the TCCS manual:

****

Fault in Coolant Sensor:

If an open or short occurs in the coolant sensor input the ECU will judge the temperature to be either below -50 C (open) or above 139 C (shorted). As a result the air fuel ratio will become too rich or too lean which could lead to engine roughness or stalling. Ignition timing will also be retarded if the coolant sensor input is deemed too hot.

Action taken by the TCCS: A standard value of 80 degrees C is substituted, the typical value for a hot engine.

****

The fact he has a code means the ECU is ignoring the sensor and using the standard value because one action can't happen without the other. Use of the standard value will cause only a slight increase in richness when the engine is hot, which is what we're talking about here. This is true of all standard values because of their static nature. Not only do the books point all this out but I know it from testing my engine in just about every configuration you can imagine using a 5 gas analyzer and the factory TCCS simulator/checker.

Note the system is only capable of detecting shorts and opens. It can't detect shifted signals ie; signals that don't accurately represent the variable they're reporting yet still fall within a range the ECU is programmed to deem normal. That's the situation you're talking about so yes, a coolant sensor reporting way off could screw things up. However in that case no code would be set. It's the main weaknesses in this form of OBD which, like all OBD, is there not so much to help diagnosis engine problems as to inform the driver emissions may be exceeding 1.5 times the federal limit. That's why OBD was developed in the first place (by California) and it's what's codified in federal law.

Make sense? If you've understood everything I've written certain things will become obvious:

1) Codes are not all they're cracked up to be on this car and *not* having any set means squat.

2) Mixture problems (in a engine operating at normal temperatures) such as the one described can't be the fault of a trim sensor that has set a code.

3) Shifted trim sensors are an invisible evil lurking in the system and must be manually hunted down.

4) Excessive mixture imbalance or severe driveabilty issues are always the result of things the ECU can't compensate for, be they a shifted sensor or other things it can't detect. Bad plugs, wires, fuel pressure, induction leaks, injectors, on and on.

The bottom line is people need to stop being quick to blame trim sensors, all of which have limited authority in the system, for many if not most serious engine ills. Especially when codes for them have been set. The kinds of emissions/driveabilty problems like the one in this thread will always be the result of something else.

Whew. I hope somebody learned something from all that.

edit: Lol...what Jdub said.
 

monkihead

driven to thrill
Jul 23, 2005
93
0
0
texas
jetjock said:
No, I'm not saying that. But in this case that's not what's happening and in this engine it's unlikely to happen at all. Keep in mind I'm talking about a stock EFI system.

Many here mistakingly think the trim sensors (coolant, TPS, O2) on this engine are required to make it run properly. That's only true to a point. Like all trim sensors the coolant sensor is for emissions first and for tweaking mixture (along with idle speed) during "abnormal" conditions (such as when the engine is cold) second. In fact the entire EFI system is there mainly for emissions. Fact is the ECU is more than capable of keeping the mixture very close to what's needed when the engine is hot using nothing more than accurate airflow and rpm input. After all, carbs can do it. What a carb or an EFI system without trim can't do is keep it tight enough for maximum catalyst efficiency.

Many also forget the ECU will correct for false sensor input. After all, what good would the system be if it ran the engine very poorly or even stranded you every time a sensor went bad? From the TCCS manual:

****

Fault in Coolant Sensor:

If an open or short occurs in the coolant sensor input the ECU will judge the temperature to be either below -50 C (open) or above 139 C (shorted). As a result the air fuel ratio will become too rich or too lean which could lead to engine roughness or stalling. Ignition timing will also be retarded if the coolant sensor input is deemed too hot.

Action taken by the TCCS: A standard value of 80 degrees C is substituted, the typical value for a hot engine.

****

The fact he has a code means the ECU is ignoring the sensor and using the standard value because one action can't happen without the other. Use of the standard value will cause only a slight increase in richness when the engine is hot, which is what we're talking about here. This is true of all standard values because of their static nature. Not only do the books point all this out but I know it from testing my engine in just about every configuration you can imagine using a 5 gas analyzer and the factory TCCS simulator/checker.

Note the system is only capable of detecting shorts and opens. It can't detect shifted signals ie; signals that don't accurately represent the variable they're reporting yet still fall within a range the ECU is programmed to deem normal. That's the situation you're talking about so yes, a coolant sensor reporting way off could screw things up. However in that case no code would be set. It's the main weaknesses in this form of OBD which, like all OBD, is there not so much to help diagnosis engine problems as to inform the driver emissions may be exceeding 1.5 times the federal limit. That's why OBD was developed in the first place (by California) and it's what's codified in federal law.

Make sense? If you've understood everything I've written certain things will become obvious:

1) Codes are not all they're cracked up to be on this car and *not* having any set means squat.

2) Mixture problems (in a engine operating at normal temperatures) such as the one described can't be the fault of a trim sensor that has set a code.

3) Shifted trim sensors are an invisible evil lurking in the system and must be manually hunted down.

4) Excessive mixture imbalance or severe driveabilty issues are always the result of things the ECU can't compensate for, be they a shifted sensor or other things it can't detect. Bad plugs, wires, fuel pressure, induction leaks, injectors, on an on.

The bottom line is people need to stop being quick to blame trim sensors, all of which have limited authority in the system, for many if not most serious engine ills. Especially when codes for them have been set. The kinds of emissions/driveabilty problems like the one in this thread will always be the result of something else.

Whew. I hope somebody learned something from all that...

edit: Lol...what Jdub said.

I heard that.. moving on, I've got a question regarding the MAF meter. can anyone pull it off of the car and it stay running(not unplugged, just off the tube)?
 

jetjock

creepy-ass cracka
Jul 11, 2005
9,439
0
0
Redacted per Title 18 USC Section 798
Never tried it but I'm going to say yes because it's not much different than having it unplugged. If everything else is working the engine will start and run. It won't accelerate very quickly or go above around 2500-3000 rpm though. Mines drives that way all day long with the AFM unplugged.

What happens is when the ECU detects a faulty AFM it uses the the IDL contact in the TPS and the STA (starter) signal to get the engine going. It then uses another set of values derived from the TPS to make it somewhat drivable. As you can imagine that's not going to offer typical performance.

Edit: I've never tried it with both the TPS and AFM off. Now I'll have to do that. Damn ;)
 

monkihead

driven to thrill
Jul 23, 2005
93
0
0
texas
jetjock said:
Never tried it but I'm going to say yes because it's not much different than having it unplugged. If everything else is working the engine will start and run. It won't accelerate very quickly or go above around 2500-3000 rpm though. Mines drives that way all day long with the AFM unplugged.

What happens is when the ECU detects a faulty AFM it uses the the IDL contact in the TPS and the STA (starter) signal to get the engine going. It then uses another set of values derived from the TPS to make it somewhat drivable. As you can imagine that's not going to offer typical performance.

Edit: I've never tried it with both the TPS and AFM off. Now I'll have to do that. Damn ;)

I unplugged the afm and it idled but reved like crap. while on, i plugged it back in and was able to free rev.
 

flight doc89

Registered Murse
Apr 21, 2006
227
0
0
Bessemer, Alabama, United States
afm unplugged and idling car ecu is on closed loop, correct?

anyways, in NEUTRAL, does it rev fine? rev it SLOWLY up to 5500-6000 and see how it runs.

it sounds like you got a boost leak to me. the boost guage may still show 7psi because it COULD still be hittin 7psi in intake, except your turbo be spinning WAY too fast to keep that pressure and you still losing metered air (ie uber rich.)

when i cracked an intake hose, it did exactly like you are saying, so thats my best guess :shrug: .

did your car always do this, or just start?
if it just started, how does your turbo sound when you boosting? has it changed from a low scream to sounding like a raped cheetah?
 

monkihead

driven to thrill
Jul 23, 2005
93
0
0
texas
flight doc89 said:
afm unplugged and idling car ecu is on closed loop, correct?

anyways, in NEUTRAL, does it rev fine? rev it SLOWLY up to 5500-6000 and see how it runs.

it sounds like you got a boost leak to me. the boost guage may still show 7psi because it COULD still be hittin 7psi in intake, except your turbo be spinning WAY too fast to keep that pressure and you still losing metered air (ie uber rich.)

when i cracked an intake hose, it did exactly like you are saying, so thats my best guess :shrug: .

did your car always do this, or just start?
if it just started, how does your turbo sound when you boosting? has it changed from a low scream to sounding like a raped cheetah?

i can rev it slow or fast does just fine.

i've left the wastegate vaccum line off by accident and it pegged off the gauge. I had to limp it home, hitting 8psi to maxing the stock gauge. I don't think its a boost leak.

its been doing this for a while only getting worse over time. i've only been driving it for about a week now, i had replaced a bhg. 2 days ago i could hear it spool very lightly. Now, its hard to hear with the car starting to buck like a bronco. i want to say it feels like fuel cut, but its not.