Replacing 7M-GE with 2JZ-GE

[Roger UK]

I have a mint Mk3 Supra with a 7M-GE engine . . . first engine had big ends fail after 115,000 miles, and my second engine has now done over a hundred thousand miles, so I figure it may be on its way out soon. And the best option seems to fit a Mk4 N/A engine, as they seem much stronger and reliable. (Please note that I hate turbocharged engines!)

Here in the UK there are a lot of complete 2JZ-GEs from Mk4 Supras for sale quite cheap.

I can get an engine complete with ancillaries, ECU and wiring, plus bell housing to fit my W58 for about $500 . . . so that looks the best way to go.

HOWEVER . . I have trawled through numerous posts, and still haven't found the answers to everything I need to know before considering proceeding with this swap. (This is not a hobby car, it's my daily driver, so would want to be sure I have everything and know everything before proceeding!)

There is plenty of info about Turbocharged engine versions, but they're quite different.

Is there ANYONE on here who has fitted a 2JZ-GE with a Mk4 ECU and Loom into his Mk3 Supra that I could ask a few simple questions? It would save hours of heartache!!

I understand most of the issues . . but I want everything on the car to work as stock, so there are lots of small details I need answers to. Someone who has actually done this swap in a similar way already has the answers, so I hope they will want to share the knowledge to a fellow Mk3 fan!

Once I have all the info to do the swap I will do a proper write up on here, so all the questions and answers will be in one place to make it simple for anyone else going down the same route.

 

[mkiiichip]

Its just like any other mkiii jz swap.

Lots of wiring headache.
Basically bolts right in, with the right parts.
Everything has the potential to work just like stock.

If you have any specific questions, there are plenty of members here, willing to help.

 

[xzeror]

I know u dont want turbo but u can run the 7mgte electronics with the 2jzge with a turbo. I dont see why u cant run the 7mge electronics with the 2jzge, this is worth a read although its turbo you can get a good deal of info of what is needed to make it fit/work.

http://www.supramania.com/forums/showthread.php?63998-2jzge-T-swap-notes-and-pricelists

 

[Roger UK]

I did think about just using the 7M ECU on the 2JZ . . .

BUT . . there seems little point, especially when I'll get the engine complete with loom and Mk4 ECU. The engine will then work as it's designed, including a better air intake metering system

The only thing that needs interfacing then is the dashboard, ie feeds to instruments

Thanks for the links . . I'll have a read through and see what I can suss out . . then I'll post a list of any unanswered questions !

 

[1986.5supra_kid]

i am currently doing that exact swap and i am staying with 2jz electronics, if you check supra build tab im posting my build info parts, and at the end all the costs,wire diagrams,notes about swap. the 7mge and 2jzge are extremely close to each other. i have help and were convinced that it will be simple wiring it into the car, and operate properly,lights,gauges,etc

 

[Roger UK]

Hi Supra Kid . . . well it would be GREAT if you do your swap before I do . . maybe you will be able to supply some of the info required! When it comes to the electrics, it ought to be possible to just have a table with colour codes of wires from the 7M dash harness alongside wires from the 2J ECU, so you can just cut join the appropriate wires. That would also help amyone else doing this swap in future . . . shouldn't have to work it all out from scratch EVERY time someone does it!

Other issues are whether the Rev Counter will work as it stands . . as well as plumbing and connectors for the aircon and power steering. (feel it's easier to keep the 2JZ engine ancillaries)

Once I've read the various links on here I'll post up a list of conclusions as well as unanswered questions !

 

[Kai]

I still don't understand your bizarre, irrational hatred for turbocharged engines, but the advice i'm going to give is this: If you have the later style round mounts, the engine will bolt in fine. Use your existing W58 transmission with a 2JZ W58 bellhousing. As for wiring, it's not too much of a headache - no more than any other JZ swap. Ancillaries such as the power steering pump etc will need to come from the JZ engine, rather than the 7M. If the 2JZ you end up getting comes with a hydrofan setup - ditch it as per Stuey's writeup.

 

[IBoughtASupra]

The JZ bible swap for our cars is in my signature. It does not cover the GE BUT it it's the same things needed to swap it our cars.

I highly agree with Kai, I have no clue why you don't want a turbo 2JZ. You plan on doing a NA-T but really, when you check the costs of doing it, you will not benefit. Sure you can price it out and tell me it is cheaper and what not BUT when you will race someone as don't tell any of us that you won't, all he has to do is raise the PSI. You don't have that feature as you'll have to worry about compression and then have to worry about detonation along with getting someone to tune it. The GTE has a superb ignition system that out does the GE. Sure you can do the IS300 mod with the coil packs, but once again, those are funds that will need to be spent.

The cost to swap a 2JZ-GTE is simply, cost effective. Thats the reason and I am sure I don't have to tell you how strong that motor is and the compression ratio suits any turbo option.

This is not a post ranting on your choice of swap as it's your car and you are free to do what you wish. We are just providing an insight as to what would be the most cost effective swap in relation to what you are doing. I have done all swaps, 7M, 1JZ and 2JZ. It's nothing new to me. With that said, I sold my built 7M but looking back, if I spent the money I did on the 1JZ swap I would have what I have now much earlier. I did lose 2,000 grand selling my 7M but we all know, you never get what you put in and that 2,000 grand is not a little bit of money.

I highly recommend a 2JZ-GTE swap and the link in my signature would make you a happy camper. It's advanced in every way possible. It's a motor that was designed 18 years ago and it's electronics are keeping up with newer cars coming out today. Keep in mind, stock coils are good for 600HP, assuming they are not cracked and the MAP sensor and injectors are only upgraded when passing their limits and same can be said about the internals. It's an all around, better motor than the GE.

The 2JZ-GE-T, also known as a 2JZ NA-T, with 7M electronics grinds my gears. Why would you want a newer motor with older electronics? Sure you can upgrade the coils to the IS300 coil setup, but why would you want that CPS setup?

 

[Kai]

Also note that 2JZ-GE heads differ greatly from the 2JZ-GTE heads in terms of manifold connections. Pretty sure the cams are sufficiently different too. About the only commonality is the block, and the GE has no oil squirters or oil return line for a turbo.

Swapping over 7M electronics? Whilst it's doable, i agree with IBoughtASupra - do it right, use the 2JZ wiring and electronics.

The wiring for the JZ to M body plugs is in the sticky in this very section - almost identical to the 2JZ-GTE, if not exactly so - the only thing you're trying to do, is mate the loom to the body connections (dash gauges etc). Don't cut the loom up either - re-pin the connectors using the ones off your 7M harness. A de-pinning tool is about £2 off eBay, and saves you a lot of hassle, and makes it reversible if you get something wrong.

 

[suprarx7nut]

You hate turbos? I feel like this needs more discussion than anything regarding a swap that has been rather well documented. (people swap 2jz-ges all the time, info is on this forum, supraforums and its in the factory wiring diagrams)

I hate turbos is the same as saying "i hate efficiency and making my engine use some of the wasted energy to make it more powerful, economical."

I thought only American hicks had an ill-founded hatred for turbos. I would expect more from a brit! Lol.

Sent from my ADR6400L using Tapatalk

 

[IBoughtASupra]

Someone needs to give him a ride with a 1JZ or 2JZ...once he pees his pants, he'll want a turbo.

It's what I did to my friend's brother who never understood why we modify our cars as he saw it as a waste of timing. One ride in my car, now he wants a turbo car. He's going to stay with his brother and get a 240SX though.

 

[Kai]

I know Roger from the UK forum. Don't give him too hard a time over here guys, he probably needs a sanctuary away from some of the...people...that dwell over there!

If he wants to go and do a GE swap instead of a GTE swap, rather than starting an argument on the subject, stick to answering the questions he's asked.

Roger, it's over to you.

 

[Roger UK]

I've driven dozens of cars over the years with Turbochargers . . . including Porches and Ferraris (and Mk3 and Mk4 Supras of course), and have never liked them. If I want more power, then I'd rather have a bigger N/A engine. But I get stopped by the Police all the time for driving too fast as it is, so why on earth would I want a turbocharger?! I bought my Supra 14 years ago, drive it every day (I've now done 180,000 miles in it), love how it looks, love how it drives and handles . . . but as my daily transport, reliability is also very important to me!

So please stop trying to persuade me to have a turbocharged engine . . . I DON'T WANT ONE !! (I would have bought a Turbo Supra in the first place if I did) I really don't know why some people find that so hard to understand, there's plenty of other people I talk to who feel the same.

Thanks for the tips Kai, but I'm already aware of all that. I have Mk 4 Supra 2JZ-GE lined up with ECU and loom, air intake, ignition coil and amp, Air Intake & Sensor, and all engine ancillaries, as well as the W58 bellhousing.

The details I still need to suss out are interfacing the dash etc to the ECU, getting all the dials to work properly, and Aircon/Power Steering. Once I've found a few hours to read all the links on here I'll post any queries that I've been unable to suss !

 

[1986.5supra_kid]

Roger UK- this swap should be complete by the end of February at the latest, right now i my motor is waiting on parts, the block is prepped and ready to be assembled and i have the entire ecu harness,and a great deal of the body harness. where will be no cutting and splicing, the wires will be de-pined from connectors for a professional looking product. i have wiring diagrams of both cars and i need to trace out which wires,but im currently doing the mechanical work first. thats kewl if you wanna go full na. just means it will have less parts to fail. such as transmission,clutch,etc, overall a drivabilty ( not having a race clutch) will be simple to your significant other. and you wont fret about letting someone and how they drive it.and its all about making it YOUR CAR

 

[Roger UK]

Thanks Supra Kid ! Exactly, I don't know why some people are obsessed with having more and more power that they would hardly ever use in normal driving (and waste more fuel - do you know how expensive it is here in the UK?!!)

220 hp from a stock 2JZ-GE is plenty for me . . . I have trouble keeping to speed limits as it is! What matters to me is reliability.

Part of the trouble with reading all the various threads is that MOST people are doing LOTS of modifications as they go! Buying lots of new custom parts, as well as fitting turbochargers, etc etc etc. I'm therefore having real trouble trying to suss out EXACTLY what is required, the absolute MINIMUM . . . . what will fit as it stands, etc.

I also want everything to work, including Power Steering and Aircon

What is also worrying is that most of the SWAP threads have taken the people MONTHS to do . . . If I'm going ahead with this, then I need to get all the parts and all the info together in advance and BE SURE that everything will fit, so that a swap can be done in a weekend. (this is not a hobby car . . it's my daily driver)

So I still have lots of questions . . and the more I read different threads, the more it puts me off !! (conflicting comments)

Maybe people can answer these questions: (remember I would be fitting a 2JZ-GE from a Mk4 Supra with its ECU and loom into my 1991 N/A Mk 3)

1. If I use the mounting brackets from a JZA70 1JZ engine on the 2JZ-GE will it fit on my stock mounts in the correct place?
2. If I use the W58 bellhousing from a Mk4 Supra, will it make my existing W58 sit in the correct place? (I presumed it would, but I've read some posts where people say it's a couple of inches out!)
3. Will the input shaft on my W58 be the correct size and length for the 2JZ-GE?
4. Will the stock clutch that comes with the 2JZ-GE work OK on the MA70? (including operating lever?)

The trouble is, when you ask questions like this, most people say YES it SHOULD be OK . . but I really want to know for sure from someone who has actually done it!

I have LOTS more questions . . . and lots more threads to read through . . . . but that will do for now!

 

[ianstaley]

Well I don't hate Turbo's but in a country where the speed limit on Motorways is 70Mph what's the point. Okay You might get to 70 a half or even a second quicker, but at the end of the day when Fuel cost's us here £1.30 a Litre that is £5,12 per Imp gallon it can make a difference. Roger doesn't hate turbos he just doesn't want one on his car for his own reasons. On the UK site almost everyone has been trying to convince him that a tubby is best.

That's is called freedom of choice, I own a MA70 no turbo, why cause I didn't want one.

Ian

 

[suprarx7nut]

Well I don't hate Turbo's but in a country where the speed limit on Motorways is 70Mph what's the point. Okay You might get to 70 a half or even a second quicker, but at the end of the day when Fuel cost's us here £1.30 a Litre that is £5,12 per Imp gallon it can make a difference. Roger doesn't hate turbos he just doesn't want one on his car for his own reasons. On the UK site almost everyone has been trying to convince him that a tubby is best.

That's is called freedom of choice, I own a MA70 no turbo, why cause I didn't want one.

Ian

Actually, he specifically said he hated them. With a strange passion too.

Anyways, With a swap like this i dont think you'll be able to pin every detail down before hand. Even when you think you do, you'll get surprised by a handful of things that you either looked over or that nobody else really mentioned. Can you afford to have the car down for at least a few weeks? I dont know that it's reasonable to expect to get it done quickly your first time.

The answer to #4 is yes. Aftermarket clutch kits say good for 7MGE/2JZGE. Same transmission, same pressure plate, same clutch disc.

 

[robhojy]

i have hazzed roger over his tastes for some time, but i respect his fight to go against the curve

are you the first in the U.K to attept this roger? as iv not seen anyone else doing it in the U.K

 

[Roger UK]

Actually, he specifically said he hated them

Actually hate IS too strong a word !! But I get SO sick of people telling me I MUST surely want a turbocharger that I probably said that to try and shut them up!

However, I would honestly never want to own a turbocharged car (and as I say, I have driven DOZENS!). I just don't like the way the power is all at the top end, let alone the turbo lag you always get, even with the smallest modern turbos. I much prefer the low down grunt you get with a big N/A engine. I also know that ANY turbocharged engine will be less reliable than the same engine without one, and reliability is probably No1 on my list of priorities. With the job I do I CAN'T not get there on time (and in 14 years of owning my N/A Mk3 it has never let me down)

are you the first in the U.K to attempt this roger?

Yes I think so . . although several have done 1JZ-GTE transplants (but some import Mk3s have those anyway, so fairly straightforward)

There are a couple of people here in the UK who have or are doing 2JZ-GTE transplants . . but as I say, quite a lot of details are different

The answer to #4 is yes. Aftermarket clutch kits say good for 7MGE/2JZGE. Same transmission, same pressure plate, same clutch disc.

Many thanks suprarx7nut !

Any answers to the other questions (so far) would be great . . . I really appreciate any help and advice you guys can give.

Everybody is saying I'm being optimistic to get this transplant done in a few days . . . but as I say, SURELY if people have done it before I OUGHT to be able to get all the info and parts I need in advance? I guess it all depends how helpful people want to be !!

 

[Kai]

While i wouldnt say it's impossible to get it done over a weekend - the only thing that could stop you, would be the wiring harness. It's simple enough to do if you take your time over it - especially if you had a spare 7M harness you could pinch the connectors off before hand, so you can repin the 2JZ one to make it literally plug & play. Like i said, don't cut/splice - repin the connectors as much as you can. If the pins are manky and need to be replaced - www.polevolt.co.uk sells the terminals and the wire seals (Sumitomo M/T series).