r-12 to r-134a
- Thread starter TooGoode
- Start date
Just take it to a service station and do it legally. dumping r12 into the atmosphere is a big fine.
They have kits to retro R-12 with R-134, go to Autozone or something and get it, it's like 40 bucks if memory serves me right. Most likely, your AC is empty already so you can just fill it up. It takes about an hour for the job and after, you have AC.
I filled my system up with r134a and no problems.. blows nice and cold. I had my system vacumed for 10-15 minutes before installing anything though..
...like you should. first they suck down the system to get out all the r12. then they apply a vacuum to make sure they got everything, and to get rid of moisture. then they disconnect the system, take out the shreader valves from both ports, and install the new fittings on top of the r12 ones. After that they add the r134a, and some oil.tissimo said:
r12 is very expensive and hard to get.
After I got my 1JZ swap, I took my car to a local AC Specialist and have the whole system checked and vaccumed. The ac tech charged it with Freeze 12 (aka Johnson Freeze) r12 equivalent. According to him works better than R134a and I believed him cuz the ac blows freaking cold air. There's ton of Freeze 12 on ebay and does not require a license to buy it.
42 degrees is 42 degrees.
I have no problem acheiving 42 degree output at full tilt, windows down, doors open and recirc off. This is with R-134a in my system. And this has been this way since I tested in Miami when I did the switch.
I have no problem acheiving 42 degree output at full tilt, windows down, doors open and recirc off. This is with R-134a in my system. And this has been this way since I tested in Miami when I did the switch.
Ugh. That tech should have his license revoked. Freeze 12 is already 80% 134a...and 20% something that will cost you big time at some point in the future. Like an entire system overhaul. Pretty much guaranteed. When will they learn...
If Freeze 12 is the stuff I think it is, it's better than 134a because it doesn't require new seals when upgrading from R12. If it's not the stuff I'm thinking of, there is a newish (couple years old) refrigerant out that works better than R134a.
jetjock said:
I'm no AC expert but I tried it since my father in-law's 84 celica had his ac recharged five years ago with Freeze 12 and it's been working great since then with no recharge and no problem with his ac system. There's several numbers of Supra owners from SF who used it and have given good reviews as well.
Anyway use it or not only you can decide what's best.
http://www.freeze12.com/
Well, I am an AC expert. I hold EPA 608 universal certification along with 609 MVAC. 608 universal requires real study and testing unlike the 609 they hand out to anyone for $20 and an open book test on the internet. I can work on anything from a car to 200 ton roof top units. You on the other hand don't know what you don't know so I'm going to explain it. Follow along here: Freeze 12 is an alternative refrigerant that's been approved by the EPA for some time. The problem with it is a case of pay now or pay lots later.
The reason the so called quick change 134 "death kits" sold in auto stores are bad is because they cheat on the oil. MIneral oil used for 12 is not miscible in 134 therefore it will not circulate with the refrigerant. The entire point of doing a proper conversion to 134 is to remove the mineral oil and replace it with PAG or POE, the two oils that *are* miscible with 134.
So what? The compressor is lubricated by oil. The oil circulates with the refrigerant. If it doesn't the compressor will seize. When it does it sends chunks of itself throughout the system. It's called Black Death in the MVAC biz. When it happens at minimum a new pump, receiver/dryer and complete system flush is needed. Usually the expansion valve and condenser must also be replaced because they can't be cleaned. Expansion valve replacement on this car requires evaporator removal. The cost can really add up.
Freeze 12 is 80% 134 and 20% R142. The reason it can be "dropped in" a CFC-12 system without changing to PAG or POE oil is because mineral oil *is* miscible in 142. But in a Freeze 12 system instead of 100% of the refrigerant carrying the oil it's now only 20%. To make matters worse 142 is a smaller molecule compared to 134, which is smaller than CFC 12. Since the MKIII didn't come with the barrier hoses required for 134 systems Freeze 12 will leak. Hell, all MVAC systems leak becuase of the use of flexible hoses and lack of hard plumbed connections as used in stationary systems.
Anyway, the 142 will leak. Since it's the only thing in Freeze 12 that's capable of carrying the mineral oil that was left in the system it'll take the oil with it. Even if it leaves the oil behind they'll be nothing left to circulate it. And remember, it's only 20% of the mixture. Guess what happens when it's gone? Boom. The user gets to rebuild his entire system at a cost of a thousand bucks or more. Notice how the low pressure cut out switch fails to protect against this since 80% of the refrigerant remains. Nor can you top up Freeze 12 since an azeotropic mixture.
Now I ask you, since the stuff is 80% 134 in the first place does it makes sense to use it rather than properly convert to 100% 134 with PAG or POE? A case where 100% of the refrigerant is carrying the oil and when it leaks no harm will come? With Freeze 12 it's just a matter of time but they never tell you that. Trust me, your time is coming. 4-5 years is typical. Better start saving now.
It's just another example of cheap and clueless people who don't do things right and later come back to whine when it bites. The Supra community is filled with them. It really does get old. Btw, that website is pure BS. There is no shortage of CFC-12. The prices have even come down recently. I've got 90 pounds of the stuff just lying around.
The reason the so called quick change 134 "death kits" sold in auto stores are bad is because they cheat on the oil. MIneral oil used for 12 is not miscible in 134 therefore it will not circulate with the refrigerant. The entire point of doing a proper conversion to 134 is to remove the mineral oil and replace it with PAG or POE, the two oils that *are* miscible with 134.
So what? The compressor is lubricated by oil. The oil circulates with the refrigerant. If it doesn't the compressor will seize. When it does it sends chunks of itself throughout the system. It's called Black Death in the MVAC biz. When it happens at minimum a new pump, receiver/dryer and complete system flush is needed. Usually the expansion valve and condenser must also be replaced because they can't be cleaned. Expansion valve replacement on this car requires evaporator removal. The cost can really add up.
Freeze 12 is 80% 134 and 20% R142. The reason it can be "dropped in" a CFC-12 system without changing to PAG or POE oil is because mineral oil *is* miscible in 142. But in a Freeze 12 system instead of 100% of the refrigerant carrying the oil it's now only 20%. To make matters worse 142 is a smaller molecule compared to 134, which is smaller than CFC 12. Since the MKIII didn't come with the barrier hoses required for 134 systems Freeze 12 will leak. Hell, all MVAC systems leak becuase of the use of flexible hoses and lack of hard plumbed connections as used in stationary systems.
Anyway, the 142 will leak. Since it's the only thing in Freeze 12 that's capable of carrying the mineral oil that was left in the system it'll take the oil with it. Even if it leaves the oil behind they'll be nothing left to circulate it. And remember, it's only 20% of the mixture. Guess what happens when it's gone? Boom. The user gets to rebuild his entire system at a cost of a thousand bucks or more. Notice how the low pressure cut out switch fails to protect against this since 80% of the refrigerant remains. Nor can you top up Freeze 12 since an azeotropic mixture.
Now I ask you, since the stuff is 80% 134 in the first place does it makes sense to use it rather than properly convert to 100% 134 with PAG or POE? A case where 100% of the refrigerant is carrying the oil and when it leaks no harm will come? With Freeze 12 it's just a matter of time but they never tell you that. Trust me, your time is coming. 4-5 years is typical. Better start saving now.
It's just another example of cheap and clueless people who don't do things right and later come back to whine when it bites. The Supra community is filled with them. It really does get old. Btw, that website is pure BS. There is no shortage of CFC-12. The prices have even come down recently. I've got 90 pounds of the stuff just lying around.
jetjock said:
Thanks for the detail information...I'm sure this will certainly open a wide debate from other car owners who have used it including myself and also licensed AC shops around the country but I am not going to.
Again, it is what is ... use it or not it's up to you. I am not saying it's better than anything else out there but for now I am satisfied with it.
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Ah well, I tried. There is no debate, only science. Or look at it this way: While Freeze 12 is cheaper than CFC12 it's 80% HFC-134a. You can get 134a anywhere and it works better as long as the system is properly converted. 134a doesn't work as well as CFC-12 in a system designed for CFC-12 though. Just because a system blows cold doesn't mean all is well but I guess from a consumer standpoint it doesn't matter. On the other hand like many people who do MVAC repair I sometimes wonder why we even bitch about this stuff because it keeps the money rolling in. You can pay us now or pay us lots more later. Unless F12 is completely removed and replaced every few years those who use it have chosen later.
One more thing: While there are unscrupulous shops no AC place worthy of the name would use this stuff. I know of not a single one. In fact that's another reason against using it: most shops will refuse to work on a car with even approved alternative refrigerants because they don't have recovery equipment for them.
One more thing: While there are unscrupulous shops no AC place worthy of the name would use this stuff. I know of not a single one. In fact that's another reason against using it: most shops will refuse to work on a car with even approved alternative refrigerants because they don't have recovery equipment for them.
Good information, JJ. Now I wonder if it is the same thing that I'd heard about... but chances are it is.
I didn't really pay *that* much attention when I heard about it, as my Supra came to me already refitted with 134a, so why would I really care?
I didn't really pay *that* much attention when I heard about it, as my Supra came to me already refitted with 134a, so why would I really care?
No, it's not. It's still a blend though. Worse, I think it's not SNAP approved ie; illegal for use in the US because it's hydrocarbon based. I could be wrong though. Even propane and butane are excellent refrigerants but it wouldn't be very smart to use them.
In fairness to the other poster Freeze 12 does work and will make for a cold system. It's 80% 134 after all. As long as the system remains leak free and in good condition it'll last for years. Trouble is no MVAC system is totally leak free. As he said it is what it is. I simply want people to understand the reasons behind why this particular blend can be a time bomb and that using it has cost many people serious money.
In fairness to the other poster Freeze 12 does work and will make for a cold system. It's 80% 134 after all. As long as the system remains leak free and in good condition it'll last for years. Trouble is no MVAC system is totally leak free. As he said it is what it is. I simply want people to understand the reasons behind why this particular blend can be a time bomb and that using it has cost many people serious money.
Get your R12 off of ebay. It's cheaper to do it yourself. You can find the oil, the hoses for the canisters, and canisters themselves (huge ones).
This is on my SC300.
I drained my AC system the best i could of R12 oil, stuck it on the vacuum pump for 60mins, put the factory recomended amount of oil in (PAG), and shot the reccomended amount of R134a in.
The SC only has two rubber hoses on the whole system, 1ft long each. I'm sure that Freeze 12 stuff would last along time, especially if you buy new hoses at the stealership that are 134a compatable.
Trouble free for 2 years now. Gets ice mothereffing cold. I'm even using the 1JZ compressor that came on the clip, I still have my stock one collecting dust just in case.
I drained my AC system the best i could of R12 oil, stuck it on the vacuum pump for 60mins, put the factory recomended amount of oil in (PAG), and shot the reccomended amount of R134a in.
The SC only has two rubber hoses on the whole system, 1ft long each. I'm sure that Freeze 12 stuff would last along time, especially if you buy new hoses at the stealership that are 134a compatable.
Trouble free for 2 years now. Gets ice mothereffing cold. I'm even using the 1JZ compressor that came on the clip, I still have my stock one collecting dust just in case.