Paint!

[jast14]

I am going to start getting my supra ready for paint soon and had some questions

1: Do I need to take it all the way down to the metal of just down to the base coat? Or can I just sand the paint that’s on there now and put then new paint over it?

2: What rpm orbital sander should I get and what grit sand paper should I use? I know there is an order you use the sand paper in from a low grit to a high one if I remember right.

Any other tips would be great

Thanks

 

[da89soup]

You are right about grit!!! I would start with like a 150 or 200 grit. Dont go to course or you will see the scratches in the new paint. Then work your way up. I would finish with like a 400-600 ect. Be carefull with the orbital sander. You really want to keep the car level and with a orbital sander that can be tough. You may run into putty who knows so take it slow. The best bet it to block sand as much as you can. This will keep the surface strait and flat. Make sure you get into all of the cracks and cranys good you dont want peeling. If I were you I would pull all of the trim/moldings/gaskets. Tapelines are the devil!!! Watch your glass you can scratch that really easily with the sandpaper. Dont use Bondo, use a lightweight filler like sunlight, zebra ect. You dont need to go to the metal on the whole car. If you do it right you will see some metel, some primer, some faint paint. If you are painting it yourself let me know I can give you some advice.
Good luck!!!

 

[Adjuster]

Easy painting books are sold at better parts and paint stores. Buy one you like, read it 4 times and then prep your car.

Some simple facts. (And I teach refinish to adjusters, and have worked around the repair industry since 1985.)

1) Do not use an orbital sander. Get a DA one, or dual action sander. The ones that just go round and round will quickly remove all your paint, and just leave you with serious scratches in the metal. (Especially if you start with 100 grit paper.)

I reccomend buying a good DA and a velcro pad. Then buy the matching velcro 3M sand paper in the following grits to remove, and prep your surface.

Remove all your trim. The moldings that come off don't have to be taped up, and it gives you a better end result. Taped off moldings generally leave nasty tape lines, and every one of them will be a point where the paint can and eventually will peel off and look like shit.

Put 3 or 4 layers of masking tape over any molding you don't remove. This will help to protect that molding from the sanding your about to do.

Wash your car. Use dish soap like Dawn, but pretty much anything that cuts grease for dishes will work fine.
Now wash it again.

Ok, with a clean dry car, no moldings, door handles, mirrors, antenna, windshield squirter nozzles and your front and rear bumpers and header panel removed, your ready to remove the rear tail lamps and the trim bezels around your head lamps. Tape over and mask up anything you do not want paint or other residue on. (Like your engine, anything under the hood, wheels, tires, exhaust and underside of the car. If you do get paint on the underside of the car, just cover it up later with rubberized undercoating and your good to go.)

Now, clean car, trim and parts removed, and any remaining parts you want to keep taped up with 3 or 4 layers of masking tape... Time to get out the DA and start with 250 grit paper. Yes this is plenty agressive paper for most prep work.
Go over the entire car's painted surfaces with the 250 on the DA. Change out paper when it becomes clogged up and is no longer cutting the surface well. Don't go down to bare metal if you can help it. I would only take it down to feather the edges of any rock chips you might have. Get a sharpie pen and mark any dents and deep scratches while your prepping the paint. You'll thank yourself later.
Now when you've gone over the entire car with 250, you'll have some areas of the factory primer showing, and you'll have marks and circles around the dings and scratches that need to be fixed up. (Assuming you have no serious body work needed.)

I like to use spot putty, or very light filler to fix most minor dings and scratches. Use a razor blade, and fill the holes, scrapes and minor door dings. If your careful, there is not much sanding needed when your done. Get a short 10" long 2x2 or 2x4 board. Wrap two pices of your 250 paper over this, and use it "board" out the spot putty when it's dry. (If you must use filler, your going to have to learn how to mix up the base and hardner, and have a pallet to mix on, spreaders to apply it with and first take the surface down to bare metal with 60 grit paper. The rough scratches help the filler to bond better with the metal. Most minor door dings filled with spot putty after sanding with 250 hold up pretty well as long as you don't try and fill more than an 1/8". (Most door dings are a few 32's deep at the most.) If you want to rough up the door dings, and fill them, just keep in mind that what you take off, you have to fill back up again...

Ok, so now your car is prepped with 250, dings and minor stuff is filled and blocked flat, and then hit with 250 over the top again. You are ready to wash the car again... (Lucky you...)

Ok, dish soap and warm water.. then repeat...

Now with dry compressed air. (If you do not have a seperator on your compressor, your just going to spray oil and crap onto your paint, so letting it dry off normally would be better here.) The compressed air is great to blow all the water out of the nooks and crannies. Watch for dirty streaks. Any dirt you leave on the car at this point will show up as nibs later.

If you want, you can sand the car with finer paper like 400 grit, but I've found most primers to be very adept at filling sanding scratches left over from 250grit paper. (Especially if you have to wet sand the primer later anyway.)

Now check your masked off areas. (like the engine, wheels tires etc.) Make sure you don't have loose paper.

Read the directions of the primer your using. The good stuff should have a base and hardner, and you will have to reduce it some to get it applied smoothly. Some primers allow you to apply the top coat inside of a "flash" time, and others do not. Read your instructions, and ask the paint supplier for the best way to apply their product. Tack rag the entire car, then mix and apply your primer. Do test spray out's first, and make sure it's going to work before you start to spray the car. Then apply a good even coat.

If you can't apply the top color inside of a flash time, your going to have to wet sand the primer after you apply it. This breaks the surface of the primer, and allows the color coat to bond with it. If your primer requires you to sand it, use 400 or 600 wet sand paper. Use lots of water, a few squirt bottles for each car. Keeping the paper wet and lubricated helps to keep it free of build up, and you have less chance of picking up a nasty chunk of debris that will scratch your paint between the paper and the surface. Listen to your paper, you can hear large nibs stuck between the panel and the paper, and it's time to STOP and clean the paper, or replace it. If you keep going, that noise is the debris putting deep scratches into your primed surface, and they will show up like you can't belive when your done.

 

[Adjuster]

Ok, your primer is either wet sanded, or you've used a product line that has a primer you can apply the color coat over inside of a flash period.

Wash the car if you've wet sanded it. Then wash again. I reccomend a third wash. Your car can't be too clean. This goes for the garage and the painter who's going to apply the final coats of paint. Buy a tyvek suit and wear a hood/cap too. Wear nitrile gloves. Wear clean clothes. NOT the ones you just sanded and washed and worked on the car in. Any dirt on you, or in your paint "booth" garage is going to be potential dirt "nibs" in your new paint job. Same goes for oil. If you have armor all anywhere near your car, DO NOT SPRAY it anywhere inside of a few hundred yards of your prepped car. This will cause fish eyes and other problems with your paint. Oil and paint don't mix. Dirty engines, and other parts can contaminate your final paint job too. Dirty hands, oil on your fingers, and even sweat will cause problems. Wear the suit. Make sure it's clean. Take you time here, this is expensive stuff paint, and you don't want to screw up 600.00 in materials just because you did not want to take the time to shower before you paint your car, or wash out your garage and clean up the place before you paint your car. Rent a booth if you can, but know that even booths are dirty places, so wetting down the floor before you roll in the car, or making sure it's clean and the filters are clean before you move your car into place can save you lots of grief later.

Ok, end rant. Your clean, your car is clean. Time to tack rag the car. Look it over as you tack it. Feel for any crap on your paint. Watch for oil, sweat and other debris. Anything you leave on it now, is going to end up looking bad later.

Mix your paint. Base, hardner and reducer to get it so you can spray it out with no splatter and drips. Thin coats generally go on smoother, but can run if your heavy handed. Keep the gun even with the panel, and try to avoid areas of dry paint. You always keep your air flowing out of the gun, but only pull back further to apply paint as you need it. This keeps the tip clean, and minimizes runs since the air flow helps to dry and settle the paint you just applied.
Put as many coats as you need to get full coverage and color. If your painting a candy, you should be shot as that's serious paint work for a newbie... Most "beginner" paints are opaque, and will cover up the primer well with one or two medium coats. More paint is not always better here. Thick paint cracks later as it cures. (Or it can anyway.) Coverage is when you can't see the primer, and you have a even color across the whole panel. No more, no less.

Ok. so you should have flash times again. You will want to apply your clear coat inside of that flash time, or you get to wet sand your entire car again. (And wash, rinse and repeat 3 times.) Then shower yourself, put back on your clean suit and go to work.)

Applying clear is getting you closer to being done. Do you plan on color sanding and buffing the paint? If so, your going to want to add more clear, but keep in mind that clear will "yellow" out your color. The more you add, the more you push your color to the yellow. This becomes a problem on silver and white cars, and will turn blue cars shades of green etc.

I reccomend 3 coats of "wet" clear coat if your NOT going to color sand and buff your car. This will give you plenty of UV protection and gloss on the final surface.

If your going to color sand and buff, then I'd add between 6 and 10 coats of clear. The first 4 to 6 would be quite "dry" and will cause some serious orange peel, but you follow them with 3 or 4 "wet" coats of clear, and it's going to burn everything out nice and smooth. (Besides, your going to wet sand and buff out the paint anyway, so who cares about the peel?) Dry paint is easy to apply with less chance of getting a run or sag in the paint. Watch it on the wet coats. You will quickly find out how fast the paint will run, and then you have to come back later and fix that run with sandpaper and a block. (And it will end up with an area that has less peel as a result of your repairs on the run/sag.)

Ok, that's it. Your paint job is almost done... LOL Now you just have to re-assemble your car after the paint has cured and been baked... (Oh, another good reason to rent a booth.) Time to remove the masking tape and paper, clean off any overspray and put your trim back onto the car... Be very careful, any scratches you get now are in your new paint job.

Good luck, and buy a few books. They go into more detail, and have photos... LOL
Or come attend a refinish class, and I'll be glad to go over this crap for days on end with you...

 

[Insidious Surmiser]

good info adjuster, you beat me to the punch... i'd also recomend spraying at least one guide coat and block (wet) sanding the car w/ 200 grit paper so you can find all the little dings, and fill em in, then of course sand it down w/ 320, then spray normal primer, then sand this down w/ 200, then 320, then 400-600, then spray base, then clear... that method always had the best results, in my experience

edit: almost forgot to tell you to use prep solve and a tack rag :-/, that woulda been bad, had you not

 

[Adjuster]

I've always said the best paint jobs had the best prep work done to them.

I do belive there is overkill sometimes on the sanding between coats, but on the final color sand and buff, you can't take enough time. (It's the one you never want to scratch again if possible.)

I think the biggest problem with most painters is on custom jobs where they don't sand the tape lines off well, or get in a hurry and paint over a dirty panel, or while wearing dirty clothes...

IMHO, biggest sources of debris/nibs in the final job are the car and the painter. (Either one was dirty, or both... LOL)

Few years ago I was dealing with a paint quality issue. The shop had been advertising for decades about their high quality, and how much the insurance companies sucked, and they would be your advocate and get the money and repairs your car deserves... LOL

So this customer calls and complains his paint has runs, fisheyes and lots of black flakes in it... So we go out and look it over... Nasty paint, overspray on the engine, moldings and weatherstrip. There is overspray on the tires, rims and suspension parts too. Sanding scratches in the filler, areas of filler at the panel edges that have huge holes, and look like crap. Mis-aligned panels etc. Basicly a job that would have made Maaco proud.. LOL The surface has so much orange peel it's not even funny, and the paint in the middle of the roof and down the rockers is totally dry. (Painting technique problems.) There are black flakes in the paint. (This is a simple two stage white SUV.)

So, I asked the customer if he had time to drop by the shop with us? I'd like to talk to the shop owner and painter... ? Says sure, so we caravan over to the shop... LOL
And the fun begins.
We talked to the shop, who knows the customer, and was quite rude. Told him that there was nothing wrong... And that the problem was the insurance company making him use AM parts... LOL We used an AM hood, but the gaps there were fine, it's the fender that was repaired that no longer matched the door to fender gap.
Anyway, we walk out into the shop to talk to the painter, and guess what? He's in the booth SMOKING A CIGARETTE WHILE PAINTING A CAR!!!!!

Oh that was funny. After I stopped laughing and explained to the customer that I could now figure out what all the black flakes were in his paint, I explained that not only was this not normal, but it's very dangerous.. Painting materials are flamable you know...

Turned to the shop owner/manager, and said "I know you guys normally would never let a crappy job slip through like this, and that your so embarassed your going to put this gentleman in a rental at your expense while you strip and refinish the areas you painted, and remove all the trim you got overspray on and either clean it up, or replace it at your expense, and I know you'll talk to your painter about smoking anywhere near flamable materials or the paint booth right?" Shop guys just nods and says "sure" I also said I'd like to see them strip off the filler on the fender and re-do the area and get it right this time. The panel gaps should be even from top to bottem, or they would need to replace the fender at their cost, and that I'd have no problem with them using a CAPA AM one if they could not manage a simple 3 hour repair..... He just nodded again and said he agreed....

It was classic. I don't mind paying for the work, but it really pisses me off when shoddy work is passed off for quality, and then blame the other guy for the problems..

 

[Justin727]

Great write up Adjuster.
Although we all do things different his info is what you should go by.

If you do have a nice sized dent and you've done pulled most if it out and went over it with filler. Use a line sander so it will be even with the car.
Also for giggles and this is how I do it, I use a black primer and some water after I do a little bit of body work. I cover the worked area with the black primer(rattle can) let it dry then I run a stream over the area I did the work to and look at it from the sides to be sure it looks level and straight.
After thats said and over go over the car with your da as I prefer 320 and I use a Stikit pad and no you do not need to go all the way down to bare metal and Im sure Adjuster did provide that info. But in some places you will.
I usually lay 3 coats of primer of course wetsanding the car afterwards and blocking it. I then use the wonderful tak rags then wash the car agian. I dont use the tack rag agian because of the oils in it.
After that I spray down a sealer for maximum protection then i move on to the base as adjuster mentioned. he summed it up pretty well i'd go by it

 

[Adjuster]

What's totally cool about painting is there are like 100 ways to get the job done right. I've run into painters who tack, wipe with prep and all kinds of personal things they do, but the main detail is the best painters are all very clean, detail oriented people. You have to be consistantly anal about how clean the car is, and how you mix your paint, apply it and everything has to be right or the job can go bad very quickly for sure.
I really reccomend reading a few books, possibly buying or renting training DVD's that go into more details, and show how each step is done. The paint supplier you use should have these, and can reccomend how to apply their coatings. (Everyone is right as long as the results are right )
The only difference on my side of the game anymore is we want to get the job done for the less expensive "right" way... LOL

There are some very cool paint options out there right now. I've been playing around with the idea of a candy over a silver metallic base, but there are a few black metallic bases with candy on top and possiby a few layers of pearl coat between the candy and the layers of clear... Mmm just takes money and time, and a clean car, painter and booth to spray it in.

Just a side note. If anyone is interested in the body and paint industry, it's a great career at this time. Many of the people in this industry are getting older and about to retire. There are not nearly enough techs and painters to fill the needs of the industry. Especially in the next 10 years. I know places like UTI and WyoTech are pumping out trained people as fast as possible, but really it's not going to be enough. At this time, if you spend 5 years or less working in this industry, there is NO reason you can't be making 60,000.00 or more a year working 40 hours a week with good benefits too. Heck, I know painters who make 2x that, but your life span as a painter is about 20 years on the good side. (Too many poisons build up in your body, and most painters end up in the front of the shop, or dead.) The work is hard, but very rewarding. Especially in the future as quality body men and painters will become increasingly hard to find. (And will make more money as the demand goes up.)

 

[tookwik4u89]

This is one of my favorite threads, so much good info, thanks adjuster! I have a couple questions about painting side mouldings, mine are 89, I peeled the 5/8" strips off, then sanded the mouldings with 320 grit. What would you do differently as opposed to the body painting? still primer? additive in paint? I just want to make sure it sticks to the plastic and do it only once.

 

[Godspeed]

Wow this thread is awesome... nice work adjuster. i happen to be a painter at a local body shop. and i read all of your info word for word. and it sounds like the usual day for me lol. i think i have washed my hands and arms so much they couldnt get any cleaner lol.
you are 100% right about the prep work being the biggest factor of the paint. i picked up a book from the local college about painting just because there are several things some people just dont have the answers to and its just as easy to look them up.
one thing to remember when laying down the base coat is using overlapping strokes while keeping the paint gun even with the panel and at the same distance away. if not you will end up with stripes lol and it sucks i did that once. also if you are using metallic paint remember usually the further away your gun is the more the metallic is going to work its way to the top layer and show more which is good sometimes but can be a PITA especially when trying to blend or match panels.
just take your time and keep clean and i think you will do fine.

as far as the trim question. we always use either a flew agent in the paint or more times than not we use whats called an ADHESION PROMOTER it also works well with plastic parts. post pics when your done.
and by the way cutting and buffing orange peel out sucks ass...lol
good luck.

 

[jizake1jz]

There was mention of having hte paint "baked," does this have to be done or is there paint that doesn't need to be "baked?"

I am also a "newbie" to paint but i'm painting my car the first week in june so i'm trying to get as much info as possible. A couple other questions come to mind:

1. Where can i buy paint and what brands of paint and filler should i use?

2. Any reccomendations for color options? I'm going black but I didn't know if there was anything special i could do. How hard is it to add...not flake but a smaller particle (not sure what its called)... to the paint? I'm willing to take time to do it right, I just gotta learn what to do.

I'm setting up a paint booth in my garage so i'll set it up and everytime I need to sand i'll just bring it outside right? then when i need to paint wheel it back in and thrown on the needed coats? Then out again to sand and so on? But yeah hopefully it turns out all right and I'm sure I'll be asking more specific questions as I start doing it.

 

[xxxotiknightz]

Try using and adhesion promoter. That will help it stick to plastic.

 

[p5150]

go to kevin tetz's website "paintucation" - alot of questions answered there. I also have a thread on SF about this.

 

[Godspeed]

Well black is pretty hard to get right because it shows everything. But if you prep it right it shouldnt be too bad. There are several things you can put in the paint.. i.e. flakes, pearls,etc etc. Most people like the small metallic flakes. It's not a big dramatic change but very suttle yet noticeable.

As far as fillers, I would use a lightweight filler. At my shop we use evercoat in the green can. Good stuff i think. Very easy to use.

When buying paint its totally up to you. You can go to napa and get paint from Omni or you can try any other paint dist. Your choice. You can get single stg or base clear. From my experience base clear lasts longer and looks better. But you have to do the base then the clear where as with the single stg you just mix all the ingredients and spray .... done. Doesn't last as long, but does seem to look pretty good.

It's not hard to add the flakes into the paint if you ask the paint distributor they can mix in the flakes for you. Or you can put it in the clear when you go to spray it.

As far as the booth, you can bring it out when sanding, it's up to you, but make sure you clean it real good before you paint it to make sure its clean.

 

[bluedragon17]

i would suggest getting an airboard sander. its basically a long board sander which will allow you to keep a completely flat surface andnot round any curved edges it helps greatly and alot of shops use them

 

[guns]

this thread is awesome. Heck These entire forums are awesome. I have a question what if i want to paint a design on my supra? I know only what i've seen on tv. about using tape to outline design. Also would the steps described in this thread result in a show finish?

 

[Godspeed]

as far as making a design you should use some 3m striping tape its easy to shape.. as far as the show finish alot of that depends on the prep work. but its possible

 

[p5150]

go to www.hotrodders.com/forum and search around.

LOTS of experienced opinons and questions answered.... !