Having troubles starting.

jetjock

creepy-ass cracka
Jul 11, 2005
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5-20 is what I've been using for some time now. In fact my engine has never seen anything heavier than a 30. It'll be 20 years in June with zero problems. Not to mention most everyone is NASCAR is running 20W these days.

I say lets move on. Jake is no dummy but in this case it's clear he doesn't know what he doesn't know. He seems to think oil hasn't changed in 20 years. Worse, he continues to believe the all too common misconception oil pressure is what keeps bearing and journal apart and the more the better. Funny how so many cling to something every first year mechanical engineering student learns is wrong. But it's his engine so he can run what he wants. Dub can keep running 0-30 and I'll keep running 5-20. You can run whatever you like too Nick. That way we can all sleep like babies ;)
 

Nick M

Black Rifles Matter
Sep 9, 2005
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Me, I use whatever premium "dino oil" is on sale at Wal-Mart that week, in 10W-30 for summer, and 5W-30 in the winter. It can get cold in Ohio and Colorado.

I change it, oh every 6 months or so. When I am done messing around over here, I will put on my by-pass system, and just leave the "gravel sucker" as you call it in place. I can't wait.

edit; come on JJ, why not turn a no start thread into another oil thread ;)
 
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jdub

Official SM Expert: Motor Oil, Lubricants & Fil
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Feb 10, 2006
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Jake - You can use whatever oil you wish...and I've got a feeling that you are going to do so regardless of what I say. But, for the benefit of others that may read this thread, there are a few points to make:

1) If you notice, Toyota also recommends a 10W-30 for the same temp range in the page from the manual. In fact, the 10W-30 covers a wider range on the low end of the chart. This manual is pushing 20 years old...0W-30, 5W-30, and 5W-40 oils were unheard of back when this was published. Oil formulation has come an awful long way since. Using your logic and this chart as sole basis, it would be just as appropriate to advise Cory to use a 10W-30. Since a 5W-30 API SM grade oil will out perform the oils listed in the original manual hands down (API SF...it's now obsolete), use of a 5W-30 oil is even better. Use of the owners manual chart to determine the oil you use is valid, but it is also outdated...to base your contention on it completely ignores the modern API SM oils that are available today.

2) You are correct about the oil flow to the cooler...above 2500 rpm or so on a healthy oil system, oil is flowing to the cooler regardless of viscosity. This is to dissipate the addition heat transferred to the oil from the bearings, etc. Are you trying to tell me that an oil that flows more freely/quickly in this regime is not going to help rid the oil of heat by flowing through the cooler faster?

3) A 20W-50 is the problem...so is a 15W-50...both are way too thick at start-up. Try to find a 0W-50 oil...good luck. The closest I can find (commonly available) is Castro SynTec 5W-50...wonder why that is? To get the oil to meet SAE viscosity and API grade requirements, viscosity modifiers have to be added to the oil formula. To be able to meet the wide range in a 5W-50 oil, a higher percentage of modifiers to base stock have to be used...that results in less actual base stock oil in the bottle volume wise. In addition, the oil is more subject to "viscosity creep" as it goes through the heat cycles of the motor...what that means is the oil will turn into a 10W-50, 15W-50, etc over time. The viscosity range will decrease...that, plus the difficulty of meeting SAE/API requirements is why you do not see a 0W-50 oil.

4) First I want to say that Dr Haas knows more about motor oil than anyone else I know...he is a true authority and has proved his hypothesis on some very high priced cars....ones that recommend a much heavier oil for use in the engine. It's pretty easy to take a quote from ANY document to justify a position...the overriding theme Dr Haas was trying to get across is in almost EVERY case a thinner oil is better. In fact, what I'm trying to get across is in Motor Oil 109 and 201...the difference in flow between a thin vs. thick oil.

You took "absolute viscosity" out of context...it was a generalization. I am going to be more specific...take a look at this oil data sheet on Castrol SynTec (a Group III hydrocracked base stock...not a true syn oil):



Note the viscosity at 100 deg C (ops temp) for:
0W-30 = 12.1 cst
5W-50 = 17.4 cst

That is a 43.8% increase in viscosity...over 4 times more than the 9.1 percent you quoted. Also note the 5W-30 has a viscosity of 9.7 cst at 100 deg C...it's actually thinner than the 0W-30 oil and would produce a 79.4% difference in viscosity. Unfortunately, Castrol did not publish viscosity numbers for 40 deg C...so, using these oils to make a "cold" comparison is impossible. However, Red Line (a Group V ester base stock...a true syn oil) publishes figures that will make the point:



Note the viscosity at 40 deg C for:
5W-30 = 62 cst
5W-40 = 94 cst

That is a 51.6% increase in viscosity for the 5W-40 at 40 deg C. Keep in mind that the colder oil is, the more it thickens up...the hotter it is, the more it thins. This is true for every grade and SAE viscosity oil out there. Imagine what the viscosity would be like at 20 deg C...or 0 deg C. And keep in mind a 5W-50 would be even thicker cold. Let's compare the oil weight you recommended... a 20W-50 vs. a 5W-30 both hot and cold (again, using Red Line):

Viscosity at 100 deg C (ops temp) for:
5W-30 = 10.6 cst
20W-50 = 19.8 cst

This is a 86.8% increase in viscosity.

Viscosity at 40 deg C for:
5W-30 = 62 cst
20W-50 = 148 cst

This is a 138.7% increase in viscosity. This is EXACTY why I said putting a 20W-50 in your motor is not doing it any favors...these are the numbers and they do not lie.

Considering the above discussion (based on fact...not opinion) I am very sure that an oil with viscosity characteristics of a 20W-50 would take longer to travel down the entire length of the crankshaft to the #6 bearing. The oil will take longer to get to the top of the motor and travel down the cam shaft to the journals and valves. The volume of the spray pattern produced by the oil squinters will be affected...all of this is simple fluid physics. Plus, engines have been designed to use an oil at ~10 cst for the bearings for a long time...only in the last few years have the designs moved toward the 0W-20 oils.

5) The oil pump relief valve is also set at 40 psi...that's why shimming the valve will produce higher pressure in the motor. This is the reason you don't see pressures over 40 psi on a stock pump...ever consider the higher pressures caused by the resistance of a 50W oil (both hot and cold) is causing the relief valve to function? The oil is being diverted right back to the pan in this case...you've effectively cut the volume of oil going to the parts of the motor that need it. A case in point where pressure does not equal flow.

Like I said Jake, experience combined with knowledge is very powerful. But, the only real piece of data you were able to point to was the Supra Owners Manual...the one that also shows a 10W-30 over a wider temp range and an obsolete API service grade. Perhaps you should start looking for an API SF grade 20W-50 to meet your personal requirements.

The contention that a 20W-50 or 15W-50 is "better" is a myth...one that is so engrained in many mechanics minds and passed along for far too long. However, JJ is right...it's like shoveling sand against the surf...opinions are something hard to change. Sorry, but it just does not add up....every person I have convinced to dump the 20W-50 has been happy with the result. My motor runs smooth, especially at high rpm...I'm running a 0W-30 syn oil that gives me 45-50 psi over 2500 rpm (shimmed pump)...in Phoenix and have done so during the summer at 115 deg F outside. Plus, I enjoy a little better gas mileage ;)

I'm sorry you've chose to ignore the science and stick with your gut feelings...I wish you (and your motor) well.
 

IHI-RHC7

"The Boss"
Apr 1, 2005
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I'm still learning here! ;)
I did find a 0W-50 full synth, and I intend to test it out. I'll also try using thinner oils with a good oil pressure gauge, and I will use the thinnest oil that will get me the results I'm looking for. At least I did my reading though!

jetjock said:
He seems to think oil hasn't changed in 20 years. Worse, he continues to believe the all too common misconception oil pressure is what keeps bearing and journal apart and the more the better. Funny how so many cling to something every first year mechanical engineering student learns is wrong.
I am an engineering student, and I'm not counting on the pressure to save the rod, I'm counting on the viscosity to keep the oil from squirting out the rod. I know I'm clinging to gut feelings, but I'm not ignoring science. Maybe I will eventually switch to 0W-30, but I'm not going to do it without further research on my behalf and without testing various viscosities just because jj and jdub said it. You seem to be putting words in my mouth and no, I don't believe what you stated above. Pressure does, however, play a role:
High flow helps to carry away more heat. High pressure helps to keep metal parts like the bearings out of contact with each other (scuffing).
I'd like to see what exactly that role is, 10 psi per 1000 rpm seems the acceptable number, but why? I'll dig into that, too. I'm not saying the more the better, just that I don't like seeing pressure lower than that rule. I've also heard it takes 7 psi to float a crank. Well how much pressure does it take to float a crank with 1200 psi pushing down on it from combustion. It's all physics, but cramming the numbers is something we tend not to do. Toyota engineers did it, but they keep those numbers to themselves. Another thought is that I'd like to have enough "cushion" there to float the rod when detonation occurs and we see 12,000 psi in the combustion chamber.
jdub said:
Are you trying to tell me that an oil that flows more freely/quickly in this regime is not going to help rid the oil of heat by flowing through the cooler faster
Actually, to some extent, I am going to tell you that. It's simple fluid/thermal dynamics. The oil cooler is a heat exchanger, and the oil must remain in the heat exchanger for some amount of time in order for the heat transfer to take place. If a super thin oil just whisks on through it, then there will be no time for any heat transfer to take place. I'm not sure what the exact numbers are, and it all depends on the diameter of the channels in the oil cooler but you know that heat transfer takes some amount of time, and should you hasten the process too much, cooling will diminish.
Dub, I would like to know more about why Dr. Haas chose to use the absolute viscosity analogy the way he did. The viscosity numbers are the percentages that you say, but Dr. Haas said the numbers do lie, and that was why he used the absolute viscosity as an example. Also, he explicitely states that 20cS (CsT) is not twice as thick as 10cS, it is 10cS thicker.
There is one more thing. A 20 weight oil is not half as thick as a 40 weight oil. The real scale is more like the oils having an absolute thickness of 108 and 114. Now it can be seen that the 40 weight oil is only around 10 percent thicker than the 20 weight oil. The difference is not that much at operation but at startup the difference is significant. Pressure / flow dynamics go along with this 10 percent figure. A 30 weight oil should be thought of as having an absolute viscosity of 110 and a 50 weight oil has an absolute viscosity of 120. I am talking about operating temperatures.
I suppose I should jump into the discussion on an oil thread for that. The only reason I chimed in here, is because it's my old car and Cory is having a problem with it. Generally, I'm too busy building engines and working in the shop to put this much energy into a thread. I got on the defense and out came a novel. I'll freely admit I don't know what I don't know, and I'd like to work on narrowing the field of things I don't know, so I'll keep on researching all of this oil stuff. I suppose I'll leave Cory's thread alone and wish you all well.
Thanks for the conversation, and no hard feelings at all. I always enjoy learning new things, and although I feel that I have learned a lot, I'm stil not totally convinced ;)
 
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chevyeater

wastegate hose is pulled
Mar 30, 2005
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Nice no start thread, LOL.

Oil should be selected based on intended use. The 5 or 10w30 is fine for daily drivers with occasional quick WOT bursts, most of your wear will be on cold starts and you should try to minimize it. For engines that get run hard, a thicker oil is going to minimize the wear on that 7MGTE.

20w-50 here with an Accusump to prelube it.
 

jdub

Official SM Expert: Motor Oil, Lubricants & Fil
SM Expert
Feb 10, 2006
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rs4rush said:
Ok I think were done with this issue.

Cory - You're right...I apologize for side tracking the thread like this.

Jake - No hard feelings here...I'd be interested in anything you dig up.