Emissions Help!!

[Cochip]

Alright so here's the backround, 1994 Toyota Pickup, swapped in a 7MGE to replace a tired 22RE. Idaho emission testing time and she failed!! Idle CO% of 6.99 and the computer is looking for less then 1.2. Also the HC PPM at Idle was 513 and the limit is 220. The mech said the the HC isn't all that bad, but the Idle CO is obviously waaaay to high. He didn't check under the hood, really easy going about emissions here, and I didn't say anything just to see if it would pass. I believe the sniffer is looking for numbers in regards to the 4-banger, so now what are my options? Do you all think I could lean out this engine enough to pass and then set it back to factory afterwards? I had to remove the EGR to make the engine fit and I cannot put it back on for this so that is not an option. Plugs are practically new and so is the cap and rotor. Air filter needs a cleaning, but otherwise all the basic maintainence is up to date. Thoughts?

 

[jetjock]

Guys like you are the reason emissions laws were created. The engine isn't in fuel control. It's very rich. The EGR (or lack thereof) isn't involved.

 

[Cochip]

Guys like you are the reason emissions laws were created. The engine isn't in fuel control. It's very rich. The EGR (or lack thereof) isn't involved.

Hmmmm, I'm not doing anything that hasn't been done before. I simply placed a 7M in place of a 22RE. Less the EGR the entire engine is there, no other modifications have been done. I understand that the engine is very rich. What I'm looking for is some advice on how to correct it which you don't seem to want to offer. I don't post on here very often, I understand that, but I respect the knowledge that is here and I hope there is someone here willing to help, not insult.

 

[jetjock]

Wasn't meant to be an insult. My point was you've been driving the thing around like that and would've continued had testing not been required. Why is that anyway? Didn't you test the engine after the swap? Your on going maintenance doesn't involve mixture and code checks? Wasn't the bad fuel economy suspicious? Are you saying there's no MIL? Or did you know and just don't care? I r corn-fuzed.

The "I just swapped it over without changing anything" flies in the face of common sense. Are you suggesting all 7Ms run 7% CO when in Supras?

 

[Numba1Stuna]

I don't think he's suggesting anything, as stated he's asking for suggestions and help, which again were not provided...

I'm not sure how reliable they are, but if your only immediate concern is passing emissions, there is a formula that they sell at Autozone that guarantees you pass emissions. It's not that expensive either. Another alternative would be to reregister in Payette where testing is still not required, if you can't resolve the issue before registration is suspended. I have family in that area so that solution works for me using their address, not sure about your situation. But, at least there are a couple suggestions. Hope one helps. Keep us updated.

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[Cochip]

No I didn't just throw the engine in there and called it a day. No MIL lights have shown themselves and I have had the need to check for them for other reasons and haven't had any come up. Not to say that since something has changed, but I honestly don't check for them regularly as part of my maintainence of the engine. As far as checking the mixture, well, I'm not that detailed when it comes to checking the engine on a regular basis aside from the standard oil/fliter/plugs/air cleaner. I've noticed my fuel milage isn't all that bad and wildly enough it is better then the tired 4 cylinder that was in there before. Really the truck has been running great, the only thing I've noticed is that she smells rich, but I was told that these engines have a tendancy to do that so I didn't think much of it. When I said I didn't change anything I meant I didn't modifiy the engine other then placing it in another vehicle. Meaning all the compontents are the same in regards to the engine from the intake to the exhuast manifold. Only thing that is different is the fuel pump is from the truck, inside the tank and the exhaust is from the truck. Which BTW maybe part of it because I believe the '89 Supra had two cats, but I'm not sure of that. With all of that said do you have any suggestions to helping me get this engine running better?

 

[Numba1Stuna]

Are you using a 7m ECU?

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[Numba1Stuna]

The EGR valve helps your car more efficiently and completely burn fuel by recirculating a portion of your exhaust and running it through the combustion process again. This results in a cooler, more complete burn of the fuel which decreases your car's noxious emissions by prohibiting the formation of some harmful gases. That being said, you may need to find a way to reroute piping, or ad piping, in order to make the ERG fit so it can run as intended.

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[jetjock]

Oh the irony. I'm out...

 

[Cochip]

Oh the irony. I'm out...

You were never in! Thanks for nothing, you can go back to the holier then thou attitude and attack someone else that doesn't know as much as you do about these engines!! BTW I found another thread on this site with someone asking a similar question about emission problems and you had almost the same reply about the engine not being in fuel control, but offering no other suggestions. I get it and I'll figure it out without your help no worries.

 

[Cochip]

The EGR valve helps your car more efficiently and completely burn fuel by recirculating a portion of your exhaust and running it through the combustion process again. This results in a cooler, more complete burn of the fuel which decreases your car's noxious emissions by prohibiting the formation of some harmful gases. That being said, you may need to find a way to reroute piping, or ad piping, in order to make the ERG fit so it can run as intended.

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Hey there neighbor!! Thanks for the replies. Yep I'm using the 7M ECU, but I had to ditch the EGR because of fittment issues with the firewall. I've done some research and I believe deleting the EGR isn't the issue, as far as the HC goes, but does make the engine run a bit hotter. I have seen the "pass emissions" additives and that might be a good last ditch option, but honestly I'd like to figure out was the deal is. I'm going to check for codes tomorrow and get a timing light on it too to see if it's on there. Plugs, cap, rotor are all good, it idles good and runs strong so I never thought the HC would be so damn high!! I'm also worried that the cat maybe on its way out, been under there for a while, but I'm not going to do much about that until I've checked a few things first. Thanks for the offer on the registration, hope I don't have to use that option!!

 

[jetjock]

For nothing? Really? I told you it isn't in fuel control and the EGR isn't at fault. Reasonable people would consider that helping. What, did you want I spoon feed you for what is a simple problem? Resolving a loss of fuel control/mixture issues is automotive 101. If you're unable to do it on your own I'd suggest saving yourself frustration by taking the truck to someone more knowledgeable. Any half ass/back yard mechanic should do.

 

[Numba1Stuna]

You were never in! Thanks for nothing, you can go back to the holier then thou attitude and attack someone else that doesn't know as much as you do about these engines!! BTW I found another thread on this site with someone asking a similar question about emission problems and you had almost the same reply about the engine not being in fuel control, but offering no other suggestions. I get it and I'll figure it out without your help no worries.

Yeah, you'll get use to that from him. He knows the engines well, but is sarcastic and selfish with his information most of the time. He's the only guy I've seen on this forum whose vast knowledge of these engines is only surpassed by his pathetic, cheap, and tasteless lack of social skills.

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[3p141592654]

At least he doesn't post nonsense unrelated to the problem (re post #8). No one is under any obligation to help, so you should be grateful he posted a response with the correct diagnosis, which is all anyone should need to solve this problem anyway.

Since it appears too hard to actually act on the advice given, I'll spoon feed you with the correct page in the TSRM to start to solve this problem.

http://www.cygnusx1.net/Supra/Library/TSRM/MK3/manual.aspx?S=FI&P=20

 

[jetjock]

Oh noes, someone on the internet doesn't like me. I'm crushed.


Thanks Jon...

 

[Cochip]

At least he doesn't post nonsense unrelated to the problem (re post #8). No one is under any obligation to help, so you should be grateful he posted a response with the correct diagnosis, which is all anyone should need to solve this problem anyway.

Since it appears too hard to actually act on the advice given, I'll spoon feed you with the correct page in the TSRM to start to solve this problem.

http://www.cygnusx1.net/Supra/Library/TSRM/MK3/manual.aspx?S=FI&P=20

I'm not here to start anything, just looking for some help. Simple. I appreciate the link and as a matter of fact I had found that already, I've become very familiar with the cygnus link since owning this engine. Never looked for spoon feeding, just some non-sarcastic help, that's all. I've been part of many forums on a range of things and I know a site with people that want to help, not just "show off" and insult. Either way I know there are people on here that want to help others and I appreciate any help I can get. Remember when you didn't know everything there was to know about these engines? Thanks again for the reply and once I'm off my 24 hour shift on the ambulance I'll be able to actually do some checking on the engine and report back on what I've found.
BTW 3p141592654 you make some very broad assumptions that I've not done anything to find info on this issue on my own and you know what they say about assuming things?!

 

[Nick M]

Are you using a 7m ECU?

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As opposed to the truck? The truck has a 4 cylinder engine. It can't be used.

The EGR valve helps your car more efficiently and completely burn fuel by recirculating a portion of your exhaust and running it through the combustion process again. This results in a cooler, more complete burn of the fuel which decreases your car's noxious emissions by prohibiting the formation of some harmful gases. That being said, you may need to find a way to reroute piping, or ad piping, in order to make the ERG fit so it can run as intended.

Sent from my G2x using Tapatalk 2

Wow. Sorry for the distraction, but this needs to be deconstructed.

The EGR valve helps your car more efficiently and completely burn fuel

Well, no it doesn't. In fact, it causes a small stumble. Exhaust gas is inert. Because the fresh air charge is diluted by inert exhaust gases, the flame front is not as hot. This lowers NOx which is formed with high temps.

This results in a cooler, more complete burn of the fuel which decreases your car's noxious emissions by prohibiting the formation of some harmful gases.

As stated already, it is a less complete burn. How you get cooler and a complete burn in the same sentence is by me.

High HC and CO are from a rich mixture, as JJ told you right away. Has the airflow meter been opened? Do you have a NOx reading or O2 with that test? I assume no, but hope you do.

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[Cochip]

High HC and CO are from a rich mixture, as JJ told you right away. Has the airflow meter been opened? Do you have a NOx reading or O2 with that test? I assume no, but hope you do.

Sent by me via Hewlett Packard and Microsoft.

Airflow meter is untouched and is original to the engine. The testing here isn't really strict so I didn't get any NOx or O2 readings with it. I checked for any codes and there wasn't any showing. Honestly I was hoping that there was a trouble code, would have made fixing this a bit easier. I'll check the timing here soon. As far as I recall this engine passed emissions last time through when it was in the Supra(got it from my friend).

 

[Numba1Stuna]

As opposed to the truck? The truck has a 4 cylinder engine. It can't be used.

That's why I asked! Wasn't sure if some kind of jury rigging had been involved!

Wow. Sorry for the distraction, but this needs to be deconstructed.

As stated already, it is a less complete burn. How you get cooler and a complete burn in the same sentence is by me.

Here, let me and several websites explain it again for you...

The EGR valve, or Exhaust Gas Recirculation valve, is a vacuum controlled valve which allows a specific amount of your exhaust back into the intake manifold. This exhaust mixes with the intake air and actually COOLS the combustion process. Cooler is always better inside your engine. The exhaust your EGR valve recirculates also prevents the formation of Nitrogen related gases. These are referred to as NOX emissions, and are a common cause for failing emissions testing. Unfortunately, your EGR valve can get stuck, causing NOX gases to build up. You'll know if your EGR valve is stuck or malfunctioning because your car will experience symptoms like rough idle and bucking on accelertaion.

Source: http://autorepair.about.com/od/glossary/gr/def_egr-valve.htm

During the process of combustion that drives the majority of cars, gasoline burning at over 2,500F can produce large amounts of nitrous oxide. When nitrous oxide enters the atmosphere it becomes nitrogen dioxide, that can later become smog when it combines with other gases in the air, according to Inner Auto Parts.

The EGR valve diverts some of the exhaust gases produced by an engine back into the combustion chamber, where fuel is burned. Inner Auto Parts explains that in general exhaust gases do not burn in the combustion chamber, instead taking up space and REDUCING THE TEMPERATURE to reduce the amount of nitrous oxides produced.

Source: http://www.ehow.com/facts_7370747_purpose-egr-valve.html

EGR serves one purpose and one purpose only. That purpose is to reduce Oxides of Nitrogen (NOx). Undernormal combustion, Nitrogen(N2)Oxygen (O2) in the air and Hydrocarbons (HC) in the fuel combind into water(H2O) Carbon dioxide (CO2) and the Nitrogen remains unchanged. Under very hot combustion temperatures, the Nitrogen reacts with the other two byproducts and forms Nitrogen oxide (NO). After being released into the atmosphere, it picks up another Oxygen and becomes Nitrogen dioxide (NO2). In the presence of sunlight, it combines with other compounds like Hydrocarbons and forms Smog. Since exhaust gas is inert (very stable) it doesn’t burn again. So by being introduced into
the combustion chamber, it will LOWER COMBUSTION CHAMBER TEMPS enough so that the Nitrogen doesn’t react with the other compounds and is passed unchanged out the tailpipe thus not contributing to smog.

Source: http://www.faqs.org/qa/qa-7120.html

If you need more information then that, open google and type in, "EGR Valve Purpose." Hope that both answers your question and helps the OP!

High HC and CO are from a rich mixture, as JJ told you right away. Has the airflow meter been opened? Do you have a NOx reading or O2 with that test? I assume no, but hope you do.

Sent by me via Hewlett Packard and Microsoft.

 

[3p141592654]

Nick, Numba just plagiarized those words from http://autorepair.about.com/od/glossary/gr/def_egr-valve.htm ! LOL

OP: Is your O2 sensor reading rich? Check your fuel rest pressure to see if you have a leaky injector.