1.8MM MLS Headgasket. Anyone use these?

D.J.T.

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I have 198MM block & 116MM head meaning a 1.87MM Headgasket so im thinking of 1.8MM MLS headgasket or should go 2.0MM?? Has anyone used these from SIP Racing? Im keeping it 100% stock for now & im using stock head bolts. Ive looked up in the Forums & posted but no one replies my questions. :1zhelp:
 

gottadiesel

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Gota7MGTE;1630416 said:
I have 198MM block & 116MM head meaning a 1.87MM Headgasket so im thinking of 1.8MM MLS headgasket or should go 2.0MM?? Has anyone used these from SIP Racing? Im keeping it 100% stock for now & im using stock head bolts. Ive looked up in the Forums & posted but no one replies my questions. :1zhelp:

I am not certain as to the SIP racing portion of your question (what brand are they selling?), but in terms of MHG in general, My measurements put me at a 1.86mm and I am running a Greddy 2.0mm from DirftMotion, IMO Figure it is safer to go that way than it is the other... With all the work involved, I personally would go ahead and spend the little extra it takes to switch to ARP hardware on the head.. just my opinion, I know you said you are running stock, but like I said if it were me...
 

D.J.T.

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gottadiesel;1630435 said:
I am not certain as to the SIP racing portion of your question (what brand are they selling?), but in terms of MHG in general, My measurements put me at a 1.86mm and I am running a Greddy 2.0mm from DirftMotion, IMO Figure it is safer to go that way than it is the other... With all the work involved, I personally would go ahead and spend the little extra it takes to switch to ARP hardware on the head.. just my opinion, I know you said you are running stock, but like I said if it were me...

Not sure heres a link:

http://www.sipracingmailorder.com/servlet/the-412/SIP-Racing-MLS-head/Detail

& so you recommend to go for a 2.0MM? How long have you been running that 2.0MM on yours?? & i know everyone tells me about ARP. Its just that im running stock right now & i have no intention of raising power yet but i believe torquing a MLS or MHG at 72ft/lbs with stockers will do the job while i saved up money for a future build. I WILL do a sort of build in the future its just that i got the car about 1 month & 1 week ago & i need it right now.
 

gottadiesel

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Quote from SIP Racing MLS Specifications -

"SIP Racing 1.8mm MLS Head Gasket 84mm bore size for the 7mgte, 7mge, and 5mge.
Stainless Steel construction with a flourine rubber coating, SIP Racing Head Gaskets are the perfect choice for your high performance 7m motor.
To use a MLS (multi-layer steel) headgasket, your engine block gasket surface and the cylinder head gasket surface must be perfectly flat and milled to a RA spec of 50 or better. You also must have the front timing cover bolted to the block as it is being milled to prevent a step from being formed during assembly. ARP hardware is a must."

I guess they are making their own or having one of the others make it for them, I am not familiar with this product, but it does state the ARP is a must? Not saying your plan would not work, as it may well hold within stock boost etc... I am just pointing out that the manufacture is more than recommending to use ARP hardware. Not sure if anyone else has tried what he is asking and perhaps could shed a little more light.

Personally I would go with the 2.0, but stock or even mild boost gains, not sure it would make much of a difference. So are those measurements for block and head after machining I assume? Not knowing where you have been with this motor, was just making sure that you were having it machined before putting in a MHG and that it is done to an Ra value within the specs of the manufacture of the gasket. This one says less than 50, some are less than 35 or 30... my surfaces were done to about 12-13. Also have you had the cylinders bored out? Make sure the bore of the gasket is equal to or greater than your current bore size. I only have about 5,000 miles on my motor since startup in June/July this year, but have seen good smooth power on the dyno so far.
 

FullNelson

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SIP racing, Rich I believe, Is only a distributor. He does great work and can get you your parts cheaper and faster than 95% of vendors out there.

In regards to the size of your HG, why are you changing it? Have you had your block and head machined? What are your goals for the duration of the life of the HG? If you decide to 'go big', will you be willing to change HGs?

Check the classified, it will be worth while to see if anyone is selling a spare set of ARPs. And no matter what your choice, make sure to retorque your bolts/studs after 5 head cycles. They will loosen up.
 

D.J.T.

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FullNelson;1630507 said:
SIP racing, Rich I believe, Is only a distributor. He does great work and can get you your parts cheaper and faster than 95% of vendors out there.

In regards to the size of your HG, why are you changing it? Have you had your block and head machined? What are your goals for the duration of the life of the HG? If you decide to 'go big', will you be willing to change HGs?

Check the classified, it will be worth while to see if anyone is selling a spare set of ARPs. And no matter what your choice, make sure to retorque your bolts/studs after 5 head cycles. They will loosen up.

Im changing the HG because i bought the car & incredibly it came w/ a 7MGE block & BHG. I bought a 7MGTE block which turned out to be 198MM. Ive had the Timing cover surfaced & my Father (a tech) worked on the Head & said its completely flat. & what do you mean by 5 HEAD CYCLES? & by torquing would 72FT/LBS be ok?

---------- Post added at 08:06 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:58 PM ----------

I was hoping i could put a Toyota OEM gasket. But i guess not. Ill do a little more research. Thanks for helping me. i seriously appreciate it. & is your Head Stock size? just wondering
 

D.J.T.

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bombinuass;1630579 said:
he means once it wars up to operating temp 5 different times. you start it run it drive it shut it off. thats one.

So i would have to take off valve covers, intake, ETC. & re torque after 5 warm ups? But if i do how will i know it won't loosen again?? Previous owner used Loc tight (however you spell it)
 

gottadiesel

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Gota7MGTE;1630563 said:
Im changing the HG because i bought the car & incredibly it came w/ a 7MGE block & BHG. I bought a 7MGTE block which turned out to be 198MM. Ive had the Timing cover surfaced & my Father (a tech) worked on the Head & said its completely flat. & what do you mean by 5 HEAD CYCLES? & by torquing would 72FT/LBS be ok?

I was hoping i could put a Toyota OEM gasket. But i guess not. Ill do a little more research. Thanks for helping me. i seriously appreciate it. & is your Head Stock size? just wondering

FYI - Completely flat imo is not enough for a MHG/MLS gasket, that is why it requires an RA value (based on maximum distance between the microscopic peaks and valleys on surface) so it is not the flatness, it is the smoothness that counts.

I guess I am not seeing a reason you can't just go with a stock HG and torque to 75lbs (Please someone else confirm this one) but again assuming you do not try to add any additional power or boost to stock with this setup.

Gota7MGTE;1630563 said:
So i would have to take off valve covers, intake, ETC. & re torque after 5 warm ups? But if i do how will i know it won't loosen again?? Previous owner used Loc tight (however you spell it)

Yes that is correct, I am assuming it has to do with the gasket working itself into its complete compressed state, more so than the bolts or nuts backing off. Loctite? Did not personally use, I used the ARP lube sent with the bolt kit.
 

D.J.T.

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So i could go 1.37MM even though i technically need a 1.87MM? I been thinking what if the pistons touch the Head?? & that is correct i have no intentions on upgrades, extra boost or what so ever at the moment. & So since i do not have this ARP Lube would Loctite be fine or would i be fine w/ just tightening the bolts without anything?
 

gottadiesel

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Gota7MGTE;1630780 said:
So i could go 1.37MM even though i technically need a 1.87MM? I been thinking what if the pistons touch the Head?? & that is correct i have no intentions on upgrades, extra boost or what so ever at the moment. & So since i do not have this ARP Lube would Loctite be fine or would i be fine w/ just tightening the bolts without anything?

Your question is valid and one that I can't answer with surety, hopefully someone who has done this before will give you some direction. Sorry I can't be of more help.

I am pretty sure there would be no interference, we are only talking about .5mm = approx 1/48 of an inch, I know there are people that are running 1.2mm & 1.0mm MHG after having head and block done - I am not endorsing or criticizing this fact, simply stating that the engine runs with no interference. You are simply messing with compression ratio (the area of combustion in the cylinder is increased or decreased) as you put a thinner or thicker HG in place.

In regards to using Loctite, in my mind it would not work well, as IIRC head bolts when being re-torqued after the 5 heat cycles should be backed off 1/4 turn or so (in reverse sequence) and then re-torqued in sequence over several passes... bottom line is that you have then broken your Loctite anyway. You should be able to get a Moly lube elsewhere without ordering from ARP. Also if you end up with just going with stock, will you not just use stock bolts?
 

D.J.T.

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The pistons are very very slightly out of the block since .5MM is gone. I slide a ruler down the block towards the piston that is all the way up & it bumps slightly. & You have been very helpful i seriously appreciate your help. I will go with a simple Fel Pro Gasket.

My father has "Engine Assembly Lube With Moly Graphite" it says Extreme Pressure & Anti-Seize. i don't think i want to use that but if it'll work then i will use it. & yes i am going to use stock bolts.

I just got drug tested for a job so i'm really thinking about finishing the car ASAP.
 

GrimJack

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The gasket size will affect the quench, or squish, on the engine. The system is designed to have the pistons move to a certain distance from the head, and messing with that by literally thousandths of an inch will change how the engine behaves. Personally, I don't understand the effects, I just know they are there, so I always try to get the right thickness on my gaskets. An engineer who specializes in this kind of thing might choose differently.

Loctite on head bolts is a no-no. Loctite is designed to change from a thread locker to a lubricant at high temperatures, which can cause some unexpected problems if you use it in high temperature locations. Find some moly lube at an auto store, or, failing that, a light coat of engine oil will work. Note that you need to use a different torque for oil than you do moly lube.

The MLS gaskets from SIP are made by Cometic, last I heard.

With the amount of material already removed from your setup - the pistons poking out the top of the block, etc, I'd definitely be switching to a metal head gasket. This isn't as easy as it sounds, as you'd probably need to pull the block, disassemble it, have it decked to a properly smooth roughness average (RA), and do the same with the head.
 

D.J.T.

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Looks like im going to be discovering these "effects" I will write about them in this thread. i should get a Fel pro tomorrow from Oreilly. Will install & see what happens. Good or Bad i will let everyone know how it turns out. Stock boost & stock everything, wish me luck.

& How much should i torque with oil? & what about Moly Lube?

& i will do after i get enough money & time. Ill end up buying another Engine for sure & do it right. A Weekend to swap should be enough. Ill just be driving a total of 10Miles in a day of work. hopefully itll last atleast 100 miles
 

gottadiesel

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GrimJack;1630872 said:
The gasket size will affect the quench, or squish, on the engine. The system is designed to have the pistons move to a certain distance from the head, and messing with that by literally thousandths of an inch will change how the engine behaves. Personally, I don't understand the effects, I just know they are there, so I always try to get the right thickness on my gaskets. An engineer who specializes in this kind of thing might choose differently.

Loctite on head bolts is a no-no. Loctite is designed to change from a thread locker to a lubricant at high temperatures, which can cause some unexpected problems if you use it in high temperature locations. Find some moly lube at an auto store, or, failing that, a light coat of engine oil will work. Note that you need to use a different torque for oil than you do moly lube.

The MLS gaskets from SIP are made by Cometic, last I heard.

With the amount of material already removed from your setup - the pistons poking out the top of the block, etc, I'd definitely be switching to a metal head gasket. This isn't as easy as it sounds, as you'd probably need to pull the block, disassemble it, have it decked to a properly smooth roughness average (RA), and do the same with the head.

Thanks GrimJack for your more thorough description, I was and hopefully was clear about just sharing what I did know without endorsing any of it as facts or recommendations...

Not to disagree with your statement about thickness, as I 100% agree, I am just wondering in the OP position of needing a car asap and with no plans to increase boost, is he going to diminish the life of his motor increasing compression ever so slightly? Or is it one of those, I wouldn't do it, you can try it, it may work, but it may not...::bhg::

To OP I have also attached several links that have good information in regards to HG replacement, you may have read some or all, but just in case you haven't - be sure to read all posts, as occasionally someone will throw something out as fact that isn't :3d_frown: and will be corrected later in the thread, so you need to read the entire thread to gain the most amount of intelligent information.

http://www.supramania.com/forums/showthread.php?97552-Head-Gasket-thickness-selection&p=1328009#post1328009
http://www.supramania.com/forums/showthread.php?108678-Head-Gasket-Replacement/page2&highlight=moly
http://www.supramania.com/forums/showthread.php?78862-I-m-repairing-a-BHG.-Do-I-need-to-retourque-the-head-studs-and-when/page2&highlight=moly
http://www.supramania.com/forums/showthread.php?88745-BHG-repair/page2&highlight=moly
http://www.supramania.com/forums/showthread.php?85505-Does-headgasket-thickness-matter&highlight=moly
http://www.supramania.com/forums/showthread.php?85428-Question-about-retorquing-bolts-on-HG&highlight=moly
http://www.supramania.com/forums/showthread.php?85166-Head-Gasket-question!&highlight=moly
http://www.supramania.com/forums/showthread.php?81236-how-much-power-can-a-properly-repaced-oem-headgasket-handle&highlight=moly
http://www.supramania.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29335&highlight=head+gasket
http://www.supramania.com/forums/showthread.php?27433-what-h-g-should-i-buy&p=350539#post350539
 

D.J.T.

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Yes i will see what happens & if if i get a BHG... it will definitely take a long time for me to do it right but it will be done right.
Thank you for the links & the help. I seriously appreciate it.
 

GrimJack

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gottadiesel;1630894 said:
Not to disagree with your statement about thickness, as I 100% agree, I am just wondering in the OP position of needing a car asap and with no plans to increase boost, is he going to diminish the life of his motor increasing compression ever so slightly? Or is it one of those, I wouldn't do it, you can try it, it may work, but it may not...::bhg::

To be honest, I don't know what the effect would be, or whether it would affect the life or performance of the motor. I've read enough about it to know that it *exists*, and due to that I've always tried to keep it in the same spec that Toyota designed it with. The only real effect I can state from this is that my builds haven't failed. Some folks haven't been so lucky. Is this due to the fact that I'm a picky old bastard, or just luck? I don't know, and I figure your guess is as good as mine. However, I can say that being picky can't really hurt...
 

gottadiesel

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Gota7MGTE;1630897 said:
Yes i will see what happens & if if i get a BHG... it will definitely take a long time for me to do it right but it will be done right.
Thank you for the links & the help. I seriously appreciate it.

No Problem at all, that is what this site is for, I am very much in debt to this site and doubt I will ever be able to give back what I have received... Let us know how it goes...

Do you have a TRSM for the 87-88 car?

You should be able to find your torque questions within the links...

---------- Post added at 02:17 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:10 PM ----------

GrimJack;1630904 said:
To be honest, I don't know what the effect would be, or whether it would affect the life or performance of the motor. I've read enough about it to know that it *exists*, and due to that I've always tried to keep it in the same spec that Toyota designed it with. The only real effect I can state from this is that my builds haven't failed. Some folks haven't been so lucky. Is this due to the fact that I'm a picky old bastard, or just luck? I don't know, and I figure your guess is as good as mine. However, I can say that being picky can't really hurt...

LOL Yeah I have found myself the same way as I have gotten older... guess tired of redoing crap that I did once already and figured well if I have time to do it wrong 2 or 3 times, should have time to do it right once :)...
 

FullNelson

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For the most part using a thinner HG and raising compression ratio wont mess up too much as long as the motor doesnt knock, dont go crazy though. A stock 1.37mm or the khs 1.2mm will be too thin and will eventually cause detonation. Your best bet is to throw SIP a call or PM and ask him, he has quite a bit of experience with these motors and can recommend you the correct size gasket along with if your a good candidate for a MLS.



AND, side note, when you go to retorque, dont loosen all the bolts at once! Make sure you do it one bolt at a time following the proper installation torque pattern.