some intercooler questions

[tookwik4u89]

Exactly what Aaron said, and your pushing 540 RWHP through 2 inches, Im surprised it did that well, plus I think it might need more intercooler pushing that much boost, to help with the heat. I definitely think that could cause you problems on the high end. You are the king of pushing big power through little shit Mikey, thats gotta be a record for stock exhaust mani and 2" pipe! When you get the I/C, a throttle body and that head work done , that thing will be deadly.....errrr, more deadly! Flow is where big HP is at!

 

[malloynx]

yea, i like keep it stock i really need to get this thing to flow

 

[Nick M]

I went to the Cartech site this morning. They list the inlet and outlet at 2.5". Maybe they have a newer one now?

 

[jdub]

I went to the Cartech site this morning. They list the inlet and outlet at 2.5". Maybe they have a newer one now?

They make both...when I bought my Cartech almost two years ago, there was an option for either the 2" or 2.5" inlet/outlet. I got the 2.5"

 

[aye mate]

Malloynx, I have the SS AL pipes also and I am using the Driftmotion small IC and with some 90 degree silicone elbows the fit just fine. I know that Driftmotion has a larger Spearco replica that should work just fine with some silicone elbows.

 

[Suprapowaz!(2)]

When and from whom did you buy that Cartech intercooler from. When I bought mine from B.E.G.I. (cartech at the time), Corky himself told me that intercooler would be efficient up to 800hp. Why he'd lie to me, I wouldn't know. Maybe you're running out of your turbo's efficiency range? Why not contact where you bought your intercooler from and ask them about it.

BTW, what are the dimensions on the intercooler you have?? There were two different ones that he sold for the MKIII at the time I bought mine ( about ten years ago).

Oh, for those who didn't know Corky Bell ( http://www.amazon.com/Maximum-Boost-Turbocharger-Engineering-Performance/dp/0837601606 ) used to own Cartech. Some years ago he sold Cartech to one of his ex-employees. I guess I can call him tomorrow and ask about that intercooler you have. Please give me dimensions.

 

[Suprapowaz!(2)]

edit: Malloynx, at what point are you going to change over to a bigger 2JZ intercooler and front facing manifold? It is unfortunate that Toyota never had 600 horsepower in mind with the 7M. Never?

543rwhp with 12% drivetrain loss is what... 608hp at the crank? Looks like he already hit that mark.

 

[mattjk]

hook up another boost gauge before the intercooler and measure your pressure drop. 3-4 psi will probably be normal at that boost pressure.

 

[Suprapowaz!(2)]

Why are people surprised that he hit that RWHP with a stock manifolds and 2" piping?? All that tells me is I don't need to go and buy a front facing manifold w/Q45 TB, huge IC, and an aftermarket tubular exhaust manifold to hit 500+rwhp. It just might be possible to hit 600rwhp with the stock intake, and exhaust manifolds. Imagine that!

 

[jdub]

Looking at Cartech's site...their cores are basically the same as a Spearco...bar & plate design.
The core used on the one for a Supra is 3" x 8" x 18"...it flows 547 CFM per the chart.

I ran some numbers through the calculator I posted...the restriction here is the 2" vs 2.5" inlet/outlet:

2.0" - Velocity 417.8 ft/sec...Pressure drop 1.44 psig

2.5" - Velocity 267.4 ft/sec...Pressure drop 0.59 psig

That's a big difference...common rule of thumb is 300 ft/sec is max velocity. The 2" piping is definitely restricting what that core is capable of.

 

[Suprapowaz!(2)]

Pretty interesting. I knew they were Spearco cores from what they told me when I bought it. I didn't know about the pressure drop from the two different piping sizes. I need to check to see which one I have. But could that be a reason why his power is dropping off on the big end? Or could it be he's possibly running out of his turbo's efficiency range? BTW, what size turbo does he have?

 

[tookwik4u89]

Why are people surprised that he hit that RWHP with a stock manifolds and 2" piping?? All that tells me is I don't need to go and buy a front facing manifold w/Q45 TB, huge IC, and an aftermarket tubular exhaust manifold to hit 500+rwhp. It just might be possible to hit 600rwhp with the stock intake, and exhaust manifolds. Imagine that!

I can tell you why Im surprised......because Ive never seen anyone do 540RW on stock intake / exh besides Mike! It's impressive!, and Im quite sure those are the limiting factors for him now with a goal of 600, sure you can keep throwing boost at it, but shits gonna get hot and that will take its toll quickly if it hasnt already. It is fun to see what limits can be pushed on the stuff, but stress/longetivity wise, I dunno.

 

[Suprapowaz!(2)]

I hear ya, but it does show what can be done on the stockers. I always thought that if you're turning up the wick, and still aren't getting more power it was because you were out of your turbo's efficiency range. I can see where people might think it was the intercooler, but I'd hate to think that Cartech unit wasn't capable of the making more HP. Even with the 2" inlet/outlet's. That's why I keep asking about what turbo he's running. When you start to run them 25psi+ you have to keep their compressor maps in mind.

BTW, I looked through your build thread. Very beautiful!

 

[jdub]

Pretty interesting. I knew they were Spearco cores from what they told me when I bought it. I didn't know about the pressure drop from the two different piping sizes. I need to check to see which one I have. But could that be a reason why his power is dropping off on the big end? Or could it be he's possibly running out of his turbo's efficiency range? BTW, what size turbo does he have?

The core itself has a .7 psi drop at 6.8 psi boost and a 1.1 psi drop at 14 psi boost....the core has an 89% efficiency (compared to 68% for stock). The piping size has a huge impact on flow. Aaron touched on part of it...the CFM flowed through the pipes is what give you the power out of a turbo. It has two big components - velocity & volume. You can look at boost psi as "rate"...it will increase flow, but only to the point where velocity become critical...300 ft/sec is a good rule of thumb. The volume is determined by the most restrictive pipe diameter in the system.

He does need to look at the turbo compressor map to determine the CFM flow at max efficiency. That will tell if it is over flowing the intercooler core. Right now, it looks like his assumption was partially correct...I'll bet it's not the intercooler core, but the inlet/outlet pipe diameter choking off the flow.

Now...the disclaimer
This is theory...as IJ is so fond of saying, theory can be quite different than reality. This little analysis does not take into account bends in the piping, the interior surface RA, or little leaks in the system. Temperature was assumed to be 80 deg F. All this (and more) can impact performance. It does give you a place to start though.

 

[tookwik4u89]

Thanks man! I think its a toss up where the limitation would be on his setup between the stock intake, exhaust, IC piping. Im not expert enough to know for sure, but Im guessing he's pushing the limit on all that stuff.....and I know thats what makes it fun for him.

 

[jdub]

Thanks man! I think its a toss up where the limitation would be on his setup between the stock intake, exhaust, IC piping. Im not expert enough to know for sure, but Im guessing he's pushing the limit on all that stuff.....and I know thats what makes it fun for him.

Yeah all that comes into play...I think he's proved quite well what a stock manifold and intake are capable of
I'll bet he'll be able to get a little more out of it with 2.5" inlet/outlets on that intercooler. He'll lower below critical velocity and achieve more flow...the TB will become the restriction.

 

[Suprapowaz!(2)]

Im not expert enough to know for sure, but Im guessing he's pushing the limit on all that stuff.....and I know thats what makes it fun for him.

Me neither. Thanks for the info Jdub, we'll see how it plays out and see what the problem was.

lol, My first thought after reading Jdub's comments was, "Look at the big brain on Brad!" - Samuel L. Jackson Pulp Fiction. But all of what you said does make alot of sense.

 

[jdub]

LOL! Thanks man

This is actually part of the answer to those "yo guys...I'm thinkin bout uppin my boost...what caz i git?" questions you see from time to time.
Normally don't answer those...in this case...540 RWHP - 550 RWTQ - 24 psi boost...hell yeah!

BTW - ran the numbers for the TB diameter with the same assumptions and intercooler CFM as above.
2.36" - Velocity 300.0 ft/sec...Pressure drop 0.74 psig

That's gonna be the limit

 

[malloynx]

thanks fellas for doing some research. i have the first design cartech. i got is from www.suprastore.com. i have 2.5inch piping however i have to reduce it off the turbo and into the intercooler. i'm running the boss-550 67mm turbo. i doubt it's out of range.

what i would really like to do is keep my intercooler now and have new pipes welded on...

 

[malloynx]

I called cartech today and i was advised to go to a bigger unit all together. i was told that even if i welded on 2.5 inlet and oulet that the intercooler itself is not up to the task.

i really didn't want to go this route, but i need to get this fixed. like i said; the car feels great, but in the upper rpms the car is running out of steam.