Poor motor oil selection and excessive temperatures in rebuilt 7m

[Beefy_Heafy]

Hey guys I recently Pmed supracentral this question (big nono, my bad)

Hey supracentral. Ive been lurking around for a while looking for a post that specifies acceptable coolant and oil temps for the 7m to be running at. Ive had not much success in my searches so i thought that you would most probably know. Ive recently finished building up the 7m-gteu in my Turbo A it seems to be running really well but i am concerned what maximum acceptable temperatures would be before i go and give myself a bhg from a cooling system issue. Im running a 13row oil cooler and big braided lines as well as a large alloy radiator and a good quality red coolant. i have a lower temp thermostat and have shimmed the relief valve in the oil pump but not the relief valve for the oil cooler (although i probably should). Normal town driving temperature for coolant sits at 85c and oil at about 80c according to my electronic gauges. however under hard uphill mountain driving this comes up to 120c for coolant and 110c for oil and still climbing (i didn't want to bust anything so i backed off) im not really sure what kind of temperatures are good and bad since i have only ever driven cars with standard gauges and the standard coolant gauge in my supra isn't connected. also at these higher temperatures my oil pressure drops from 3bar @ 3000rpm (normal driving temp) to about 2.3bar @ 3000rpm. is this bad? im using a 10w50 weight semi synthetic oil until my run in is complete then i will swap to 10w70 fully synthetic.

sorry for the long ass message. im a bit anal about these things and want to make sure im not doing anything stupid. i hope this doesn't bother u too much and that i haven't missed the answer to this question elsewhere.
Thanks
Tom

To which he replied

I have a rule about not answering tech questions via PM (it's in my sig) but what you've written concerns me so much I'll reply. But please take it to the appropriate forum after this. (See below)

however under hard uphill mountain driving this comes up to 120c for coolant and 110c for oil and still climbing

Way too hot. You really shouldn't see more than about 110 for coolant in my experience.

(i didn't want to bust anything so i backed off)

Smart move. Do you have a Pyrometer? (Exhaust Gas Temp Gauge) It's one of the most valuable gauges you can have on a turbo car.

also at these higher temperatures my oil pressure drops from 3bar @ 3000rpm (normal driving temp) to about 2.3bar @ 3000rpm.

Pressures are in an acceptable range, but I've got some comments on your oil (see below), but you're definitely seeing a lot of thinning for that much of a difference.

is this bad? im using a 10w50 weight semi synthetic oil until my run in is complete then i will swap to 10w70 fully synthetic.

Whoa! Way too thick. Post those weights up in the Motor Oil, Lubricants and Filtration SME forum. I'll guarantee you Jdub tells you the same.

The 10w50 is bad enough, but 10w70 ?!?! IMO that's insane.

Read this:

http://www.supramania.com/forums/sho...l=1#post791825

And this:

http://www.supramania.com/aehaas/

and this:

http://www.supramania.com/forums/showthread.php?t=38768

Unless you've specifically built your motor to handle a 50-70 wt oil, you're going to kill it.

5w30 or 10w30 is the heaviest oil that a 7M needs, unless it's ultra high mileage and is very loose, even then I'd only go to a 10w40. We've got people running 0w20 in these cars without issue...

I'd straighten that out first. The mud you are running probably has so much resistance to flow that you're going to kill you motor.

I read the threads that supracentral suggested and i cant believe how wrong i was with oil selection. i don't know what i read or where but i thought i had done my homework. The oils i have used so far in the car have been Penrite running in oil 15w40 for the first 500km and then oil and filter change to Penrite HPR10 10w50 semi synthetic motor oil currently at 800km since changing to this oil.

i read somewhere in one of those above listed posts that the 7m was designed to run oil at 10-12 cst at operating temps. considering the hpr10 has a cst of 19@100c i think i have chosen the wrong oil. Worse still the Penrite sin10 fully synthetic oil i was going to put into the engine in another 1200km is a 10w70 with a cst of 30.1@100c

What an epic fail. i think i somehow got sucked into this thing about the "extra 10" bull on the advertising for the penrite oils and being told that the extra viscosity at high temps would "protect" the engine. Hmm i was wrong. Also i don't understand why the bottles are allowed to specify that they meet the requirements for cars running lower viscosities when the cst figures are in actual fact to high. the back of the hpr 10 bottle states "HPR10 is designed to out perform and exceed manufacturers requirements in the latest generation conventional, turbocharged and supercharged petrol engines where SAE 10w-30 10w-40 and 10w-50, grades are specified in the owners handbook" which is what i was looking at when i bought the oil.

So what i need to know now is.
1 is it too late to change to a good 0w30 or 10w30 oil.
2 Will this help to reduce the massive temperatures im getting
3 Im also running a proflow reuseable stainless steel filter since changing to the hpr10, is this a bad thing should i be using good quality paper filters instead.

Some other things u might need to know before answering are, the shim in the relief valve of the oil pump is 8mm and the engineer increased the clearances on my bearing journals to .0025inches for "high rpm oil flow". Also that i live in sunny Queensland Australia if thats going to affect the oils i need i don't know

Hope this all contributes in some meaningful way. thanks guys

 

[Beefy_Heafy]

went to local autoshop and swapped the bottle of hpr10 i got yesterday for a bottle of semisynthetic valvoline durablend 5w30. it was pretty much the only thing they had that would suit. however i cannot change it untill i get home.... 180km away :s

 

[Poodles]

- Larger oil cooler that function off of the same pressure based cooling circuit isn't going to help too much. http://www.supramania.com/forums/sh...ostat-Controlled-Oil-Cooler-amp-Remote-Filter

- Lower temp t-stat won't help, stock is best as if the cooling system is functioning right and has reserve cooling it will stay where the ECU wants the temps to be for optimum performance. Do you have a larger radiator? What are the full specs on the car?

 

[Beefy_Heafy]

actually yeah ur totally right about the oil cooler thing poodles will change to option 1 with the cooler in series with filter and thermostat on that post asap. ive got most those parts already anyways with my relocator etc. oh and sorry i made a mistake its actually a high flow thermostat. not a lower temp thermostat. i remember figuring that a lower temp thermostat would be a dumb idea at the time i bought it and stuck with the recommended temp range.

car is a 1988 ma70 turbo a variant
Rundown on mods are as follows

Engine
7m-gteu
Nitrided crank
Eagle rods
Arias pistons (2thou or .05mm over)
BC 1mm oversize stainless valves with 3 angle grind
BC valve springs (thick ass single springs)
BC titanium retainers
Port matched manifolds and a slight port polish with good surfacing (or so it appears)
Cometic MLS head gasket (standard thickness)
ARP head studs, main studs, and rod bolts
HKS 3 layer foam air filter
fabricated steam pipe exhaust manifold with 6 into 1 merge collector
Garrett gt3582r turbo with .82ar rear housing and internal wastegate
all braided ss lines for turbo oil and water
fabricated stainless 3 inch dump pipe into 3inch stainless exhaust with high flow cat and some random cannon type muffler
Turbosmart 1.5inch plumb back bov
HKS fuel cut defender to prevent boost cut
Apexi AVC-R boost controller, currently just running ~13psi boost on actuator alone as solenoid seems to be playing up
hi flow thermostat
oil filter relocator with pro-flow stainless reusable filter and magnet filter
larger than standard 13 row oil cooler
mspec twin core universal alloy radiator (not to sure about capacity but definantly larger than standard.
16inch thermo fan with switch set to ~90c
All air pipes fabricated from mild steel and painted in satin. sexxaayy
oil cooler has -8 braided lines still running standard releif valve system soon to be changed
relocator is running -10 braided lines and oil pump shimmed 6-8mm (memory hazy, i should write this stuff down somewhere)
Still running standard computer cams and intercooler tho i have read that the cams are different in turbo a and i know the intercooler is a bit longer due to the standard oil cooler being mounted infront and not beside it. the turbo a computer runs map sensor instead of afm also
using and changing to and from a variety of engine oils (see above)
using 5050mix of nulon red coolant and demineralised water.
also using oil catch can... does that even count
aftermarket management is high on the to do list. athough factory management seems to be holding up quite well. boost controller states that injectors are at a bit over 50% remaining at full noise and af ratios stay good according to my af gauge

Driveline
Lightweight flywheel (Supposedly OS gilken)
Exeddy semi cushion brass button clutch.
Short shifter (unknown brand)
Redline lightweight shockproof gear oil in standard r154 transmission
TRD LSD (or so i was told on purchase) unknown oil but have some recommended redline stuff to go in

Sussy
whiteline front swaybar
greddy strut brace
eibach springs with bilstien shocks. all non adjustable and unsure on shock and spring strengths but shes stiff as hell and handles like a dream

Brakes
Dba slotted rotors on front
Good quality pads (unsure of brand but they work awesome and dont fade easy)
Good quality fluid (forget brand mobil i think)

Interior
Momo race 300mm wheel
Cusco handbreak lever
recaro seats from jza70
greddy electronic boost, oilpressure and water temp guages
autometer electric oil temp, af ratio (displayed in a red yellow green arch of lights rather than a number) and voltage guages
greddy turbo timer
crazy awesome alarm system
some stereo crap who cares

Rolling on 17inch work equip wheels with dunlop sport sp 200 rubber 255 on rear and 235 on front. mmmm grippy, and expensive

The hardcore engineering stuff like block and head surfacing, honing bores, setting clearances, line honing etc taken care of by my engineer Craig at express engine re conditioners in Toowoomba and fabrication of manifold, dump pipe and air hard piping was done by Shannon at MTQ engine systems also in Toowoomba. Shannon and Craig are both awesome at what they do and have answered (endured) all of my questioning and nagging like champions. All the assembly and research was done by yours truly

I think thats the lot.... ill be changing to the 5w30 valvoline semisynthetic tomorow to see how i go and am now concerned about what other things i have failed at doing my homework about with this build :s

 

[jdub]

Cooling system:
- The stock ECU looks for coolant temps between 76 and 100 deg C for normal ops. Below that range you are in warm-up enrichment - above the ECU pulls timing.
- Your radiator should have the thermal capacity you need. I suspect the fan (lower temp to 85 deg) or you do not have an engine under tray (that will give you a 10 deg drop).
- Test the T-stat in a pot of water with a thermometer to make sure it starts opening at ~85-90 deg C. If it has a jiggle valve, cut it off.

Oil system:
Oil is formulated to run in the 100 deg C +/- 20 deg C. I agree with SC, a 50W-70 is way too thick, but there are exceptions. One of them is the motor has to have the bearing clearances opened up to handle the thicker oil - you have done this and by doing so have committed to a heaver weight oil. That means the rest of the system has to be modified to handle it as well - you are going to need the highest flow you can get:
- Switching over to a T-stat controlled oil cooler circuit as Poodles pointed out - 80 deg C is what you want. This system eliminates a major pressure bleed - it will be a big improvement.
- All hoses in this system need to be -10...you need to get rid of the -8 lines.
- As big a cooler as you can fit - use a stacked plate type (like a B&M - more efficient) vs a tube/fine...I would go at least 40mm thick.
- Install an accumulator - you can set up up to serve as a pre-start oiler. This will keep oil pressure to the engine at all times (especially if the pan pick-up is uncovered under G) and is really not an option due to what you have done machine work wise.
- Your 8mm oil pump relief valve shim should be sufficient.

Since you opened your bearing clearances up, you will need to run a thicker oil. My suggestion would be to start with a 0W or 5W-40 synthetic and monitor pressures - you are looking for a 0.7 BAR increase in pressure per 1000 RPM minimum. On this motor, I would like to see ~1 BAR at hot idle peaking out at 4-5 BAR at WOT. Castrol Edge 0W-40 would be an excellent choice:
http://www.castrol.com/liveassets/b...ocal_assets/downloads/e/EDGE0W40_B1971_05.pdf

If this is not producing the desired results, you can go with Castrol Edge 10W-60:
http://www.castrol.com/liveassets/b...ssets/downloads/e/EDGESport10W60_B1968_05.pdf

^^^ This oil will absolutely require an accumulator to run it in your motor...the oil needs to be flowing when you start to avoid bearing wear. The engine also needs to be at operating temp (oil temps above 90 deg C) before you do any kind of medium to hard acceleration.

The Shell Helix Ultra products in the same viscosity ranges would be an excellent choice as well.

 

[Supracentral]

I concur - in your initial message, you didn't let me know the clearances had been loosened - that's very important information when discussing oil. A 0w20 is out of the question for your build. But I agree with jdub's assessment - 50-70 weight is still way to high. Follow his recommendations, he's dead on.

 

[Beefy_Heafy]

Excellent information. With what ive read over the past few days this all makes perfect sense. The engine does make around 1bar oil pressure at hot idle which is good so that tells me that the oil pressure relief based oil cooler is causing a lot of the pressure issues. it comes up to around the 4bar mark when wot and in higher rpm so its not far off the mark but ill get onto making those improvements asap. I don't feel like wasting the engine Its amazing how the .0025mm clearance can make such a massive difference.
In your experience(s) is this larger bearing clearance and heavier oil path that ive stumbled down a good or bad option. or is it all much the same.

Thanks Jdub, Supracentral and Poodles for being awesome and saving my 7m!

 

[Beefy_Heafy]

hey i just came up with an idea, not entirely sure if it will work tho. If instead of removing the 7m-gte filter cooler bracket and replacing it with a na filter stud, could I just remove the cooler relief valve and spring and then use that opening for the accumulator. and then run the cooler with thermostat in series with my remote filter head as I would otherwise? I know that means that unfiltered oil will move into the accumulator, is that something i want to avoid at all costs? I mean Toyota thought it was okay to put unfiltered oil through a cooler

 

[IJ.]

Bad idea.....

What are your bearing clearences?

 

[Beefy_Heafy]

Hey IJ. Sorry which bit is a bad idea? the positioning of the accumulator or something else :s

Just called the engineer. he said that he set bearing clearances to .0025inches which is approaching the .0028 maximum specified in the TSRM

 

[IJ.]

Plumbing the accumulator in on the non filtered side =bad

Clearences are pretty close to what I ran in my old 7M, I had a good result using Castrol 10/60 Synthetic and a 5mm shim in the pump relief.

 

[Beefy_Heafy]

okay. well thats good news. Engineer confirmed that the oil pump is shimmed 6mm. Ill start with the 0w-40 that jdub suggested and work my way up. And ill fix up that accumulator/oil cooler issue asap. so accumulator is pretty good to be screwed in anywhere on the filtered side? Oh also i do have an under plate but it only runs from the front of the car to under the intercooler, should be directing better flow into the rad perhaps not enough. Although since the penrite HPR 10 im currently using has a cst of 19@100c in light of my large bearing clearance development it probably isnt such a bad thing anyway. Do any of u guys have experience with penrite oils? perhaps their sin 0 which is a 0w50 with a cst of 19.6@100c might not be a bad choice either with my clearances etc http://www.penriteoil.com.au/pis_pdfs/SIN Engine Oil 0 JAN 2010.pdf

 

[Beefy_Heafy]

IJ how was the rest of the oil filter cooler etc system in ur old 7m with the 5mm shim running 10w-60 and similar bearing clearance to mine set up?

 

[IJ.]

8 litre Group A Magnesium sump> Shimmed clearanced GTE Pump>NA stud>Canton Block adaptor>OUT>-10 pushlock hoses/AN fittings>Canton Remote Filter head>Mocal T Stat>B&M Cooler>T>3.0L Accumulator>IN

Total system volume 12 kitres.

 

[Beefy_Heafy]

Thats an epic volume! Im going a similar direction. already got the permacool block adaptor and -10 speedflow fittings and braid to permacool 2in2out filter head. will get the na stud, thermostat and a larger -10cooler asap along with the moroso 3.3l accumulator and solenoid asap. Ill defiantly have a read though your build thread for that one. the swap ur doing at the moment sounds like a monster. Do you think that as long as i don't push any wot or hard corners with current oil setup ill be okay? or is this something that i should be pulling it off the road for

 

[IJ.]

Braided line is way overkill for the oiling system, describe the current system in detail?

 

[Beefy_Heafy]

yeah i know the braid is overkill but it looks awesome and i was fairly cashed up at the time so it seemed like a good idea
i drew a piccy of my system
oil temp sits around 80-85c during town driving.
~1bar @ idle
~3bar @ 3000rpm
goes up to around 4 bar in higher rpm ranges
has been using that penrite hpr10 i was talking about which is a semi synthetic 10w50 wt with a cst of 19@100c and 125@40c
have to drive another 900km or so before its ready for full syn

ps sorry to those that i have asked questions of and not given full details. Im trying hard to learn.

 

[IJ.]

Should work okish as long as you keep it 1 litre overfull.

-8 lines and fittings are a bit of a trap if there are any bends in them.

 

[Beefy_Heafy]

whats the overfilling for? Cornering g's? or will it overdraw under high rpm? i had my dipstick tube bent on a few different angles to fit when i got the manifold etc done and it pokes into the crank case at a near horizontal angle. so i think its overfull most the time anyway. yeah ive got gentle curves in the -8lines but ill double check on that. will take it fairly easy and change the system up asap. shouldn't glaze up now that ive done 1500+km on it

Thanks again for lending your experience

 

[IJ.]

Yep gives a small safety net for braking/cornering as the stock pan is a joke at best and if 500Ml low a disaster at worst....

I change to Synthetic at 1000Km's and before any hard boosting.