57 trim ct-26 Dyno

supradjza80

Mr. Formula SAE
Apr 24, 2007
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My 57 Trim runs pretty rich with the AFPR at ~30 psi at idle vac line of, it is in the low 10's AFR all the way out to redline even at ~16 pounds of boost. The car is running the stock ECU, DM CT2657, Lex/550/mk4 pump, Apex intake, Cooleze hardpipes, DDP into 3.5" straight pipe, and an Apexi AVCR for boost control. The car hits Fuel cut right around 18 psi.

So how did you guys manage to burn up your ring lands, I thought almost all of these Lex AFM modified cars ran pig rich?
 

Nick M

Black Rifles Matter
Sep 9, 2005
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It is the TCCS program that is rich, not the meter choice. The car has cast pistons. They are expensive to replace if somebody puts a hole in one by running 11.5:1.
 

Nick M

Black Rifles Matter
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bountykilla0118;1605372 said:
How is 11.5 dangerous?

Lean is mean. Pump gas, even 93 or 94 doesn't leave much room for error. Especialy with a cast piston. Ultimately, you should look at EGT's, in addition to A/F ratios.
 

CajunKenny

PULL MY FINGER. PLEASE!
Nov 15, 2007
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While 11.5 is considered to be the Highest TQ producing mixture, it is definitely in the danger zone should something go wrong.

Why not shoot for 11.0-11.2? It's a safer mixture and the difference in power between that and 11.5 is minimal.

If you want to try to squeeze every bit of power out of your car.....do it with a built engine or a safe guard such as Water/Meth. Relying on gas alone is risky business.
 

supranasty

Yo Daddy
Apr 12, 2005
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CajunKenny;1605395 said:
While 11.5 is considered to be the Highest TQ producing mixture, it is definitely in the danger zone should something go wrong.

Why not shoot for 11.0-11.2? It's a safer mixture and the difference in power between that and 11.5 is minimal.

If you want to try to squeeze every bit of power out of your car.....do it with a built engine or a safe guard such as Water/Meth. Relying on gas alone is risky business.

Exactly , My 12's on a 10.8:1 AFR is ok in My Book. Re building Motors SUCKS . To Say the least your Timing on a stock computer is way up there.
 

bountykilla0118

In Pursuit of 500rwhp
Jul 16, 2005
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A/f --- comment
9.0:1 --- black smoke (no power), cylinder wash
11.5:1 --- rich best torque @ wot
12.2:1 --- safe best power @ wot
13.3:1 --- lean best torque @ wot
14.6:1 --- stochimetric afr ( chemically correct )
15.5:1 --- lean cruise
16.5:1 --- best fuel economy (except for honda motor company)
18.0:1 --- carbureted lean limit (except for honda motor company)
22.0:1 --- efi lean limit

fuel metering

the combustion process burns a mixture of air and fuel. This air and fuel mixture is referred to as the a/f ratio. As the relative amount of fuel in the mixture decreases ( a leaner mixture ) the a/f ratio value becomes larger. As the proportion of fuel becomes greater ( a richer mixture ) the a/f ratio value becomes smaller.

The a/f ratio of an engine may be measured in many ways, but the most representative and accurate methods use highly specialized exhaust gas analyzers. The a/f ratio information is the key to establishing an appropriate fuel metering calibration for a given engine combustion. Anyone attempting to optimize an engine a/f ratio should purchase and utilize an a/f ratio mixture meter. Whether you are tuning a carburetor, fuel injection or forced induction and using unleaded fuel, there are many to choose from, the "wide band" version is the preferred version. Do not discount the "narrow band" version, either version is far more accurate than "i think it's lean" or "it feels rich", without accurate information you are wasting time, money and possibly the engine.

A fully warmed up engine with an a/f ratio as rich as 6.0-1 and as lean as 22.0-1, these are the general rich and lean combustion limits, but during actual driving situations the actual a/f ratio needed during various operating conditions will be very close to the mid-point of these extremes.


Generally engines of different basic designs have the same a/f ratio requirements. These calibration needs are typically a function of operation mode, engine temperature, engine speed, and load. Generally a production based high performance engine will have a/f ratio values in a range from 12.0:1 to 16.0:1.

Cold engine

the combustion process requires vaporized fuel. Most of the vaporization occurs after the air and fuel droplets have moved past the intake valve, but a large portion must occur before the intake valve open. In a cold engine the air, fuel and all the components contacted by the fuel are at temperatures that do not promote vaporization, so additional fuel must be added so that the percentage that does vaporize will support combustion. The amount of this additional fuel (cold enrichment) depends on the temperature. If the starting climate is very cold (-20f) the a/f ratio may need to be 4.0:1, as the engine warms up, the a/f ratio must be leaned to normal values.

Idle

the a/f ratio for a stable idle is determined primarily by the camshaft profile. A long duration camshaft with big valve overlap causes the inlet charge to become diluted by exhaust gases, this diluted charge burns very slowly and may require a lot of spark advance. Also the combustion becomes erratic, so a rich a/f ratio is required to reduce the cyclic variation (loping idle) when tuning. The a/f ratio may need to be 11.5:1 or richer with a really serious race camshaft profile. With a short duration camshaft profile the a/f ratio does not need to be as rich for a stable idle and may be as lean as 14.7:1 where emissions need to be a minimum.

Low speed and light throttle

the conditions that affect a/f ratios at idle also affect the fuel calibrations at off-idle operating conditions where engine rpm is low and the load is light (low inlet density and high manifold vacuum). Again the longer valve duration / overlap, the richer the a/f ratio will need to be for surge-free operation. In the immediate off-idle range the a/f ratio may need to be as rich as the idle, somewhere around 12.5:1 to 13.0:1 is common, then gradually becoming leaner with an increase in speed or load. With a very mild camshaft profile, the engine may tolerate a/f ratios in the 14.0 to 15.0:1 range for the same operating conditions.

Minimum speeds and loads

as engine rpm increases the throttle is opened, the effect valve duration and overlap begin to diminish. There is less inlet charge dilution, so a leaner a/f ratio may be used without any surges or drivability problems. A/f ratios from 14.0 to 15.5:1 are the norm. Typically the best economy a/f ratio is from 15.5 to 16.5 with a "streetable" high performance engine combination, but will require additional spark advance to compensate for the slow burn rates of lean mixtures.

Heavy load at part throttle

as load on the engine increases from adding more throttle opening (high inlet charge density / low manifold vacuum) the a/f ratio needs to be enriched to produce more power and reduce the drivability issues because of lean a/f ratios at high loads. The a/f ratio should be somewhere between the cruise and wot a/f ratio values, generally around 14.5 to 13.0:1 depending on load and speed.

Wide open throttle

all 4-cyle gasoline engines have around the same a/f ratio needs at wot, where the goal is to produce the maximum torque / power from a given engine combination. The leanest a/f ration that produces maximum torque / power is referred to as "lean best torque" which is usually around 13.3:1 a/f ratio. The richest is a a/f ratio of 11.5:1 "rich best torque". The difference between "lean best torque" and "rich best torque" can be closer at high engine speeds, so the best target a/f ratio for wot usage is between 12.0 to 12.5:1 a/f ratio, this insures the best performance at wot power under all circumstances.

Spark advance requirements

the charge of the air / fuel is burned by a flame-front beginning at the spark plug. The flame starts a kernel with a rather slow rate of expansion, but once a small percentage of the charge is ignited, the combustion process accelerates at a faster rate. Due to the very slow initial reaction rates, ignition must occur "before top dead center" if maximum effect is to be utilized. This is the "advance" in ignition and is measured in degrees of crankshaft rotation. The best advance usually produces the best torque when maximum cylinder pressure is achieved at around 15 degrees "after top dead center". Depending on design and operating conditions, the spark advance can be from less than 5 degrees up to more than 30 degrees for a high performance / race engine, and 0 degrees up to more than 50 degrees for a stock production engine with emission components in place and functional.

Those of us in engine development strive to calibrate spark advance to values referred to as " minimum best torque", this is the minimum spark advance that will produce the maximum torque at a given operating condition of speed and load of a given engine combination. In most cases the spark advance curve can be advanced several additional degrees beyond "minimum best torque" before torque begins to drop off. If "knock" occurs before "minimum best torque" advance can be determined. The advance is referred to as "knock" limited. The fuel octane, camshaft profile and or the engine's static compression ratio will need to be addressed before maximum out-put can be achieved.

The variables that influence the spark advance requirement include the base engine design, the specific components of the particular engine ( camshaft, compression, piston and cylinder head configuration), the intended fuel to be used and the operating conditions (rpm / load / temperatures). The spark advance generally increases with engine rpm up to a point where it will "peak" and in some cases will decrease slightly with further increase of rpm. Advance requirements decreases with load and the minimum advance at any given engine speed is at wot.

The advance requirements of an engine of the same design but different components are dictated more by camshaft profile, including compression. With a radical camshaft profile, the wot advance curve can be very aggressive and reach maximum advance at a lower rpm because of the poor volumetric efficiency at low rpm, and a very slow combustion rate and its high resistance to "knock". Part throttle advance on engines with large cams can also be aggressive because of the reduced flame speed caused from a significant exhaust dilution of the inlet charge from a camshaft with a lot of overlap.
 

Nick M

Black Rifles Matter
Sep 9, 2005
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Naturally aspirated engines and turbocharged engines are not the same. They cylinder pressure is significantly increased if you didn't know what was happening under boost.

14.6:1 --- stochimetric afr ( chemically correct )

This isnt complete. 14.7:1 is used to keep the catalytic converter in its peak operating range, nothing else.
 

bountykilla0118

In Pursuit of 500rwhp
Jul 16, 2005
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Nick its a pretty damn good start ...... Would you be so kind to complete the rest of it ..... and continue the spread of quality info.
 

supranasty

Yo Daddy
Apr 12, 2005
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bountykilla0118;1606337 said:
Nick its a pretty damn good start ...... Would you be so kind to complete the rest of it ..... and continue the spread of quality info.

Agreed, Please Nick continue . In My book also Rich is Your friend . LIL Lean makes more power and has caused alot of stock computer 7MGTE's to go LS1 .LOL , :( . Im Just not Big on DYNO NUMBERS . Make it LAST.11.0:1 on PUMP GAS . What DID TOYOTA SET IT TO AT WOT BONE STOCK BOOST ? Hmmmm .

2j or whatever you got without a standalone for timing control .

Bountykilla0118 Pay Attention PLEASE .
 
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supranasty

Yo Daddy
Apr 12, 2005
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CajunKenny;1606590 said:
^I think the phrase you're looking for is:

"It's better to be rich and retarded than lean and broke." :)

Thats It, thanks .

Bountykilla0118 you gettin it yet ?
 
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bountykilla0118

In Pursuit of 500rwhp
Jul 16, 2005
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Its funny I don’t recall stating my stance .... I asked a question b/c most people say 11.5-12.5 is the leanest you should run. Then I posted some decent info on the basics of tuning. Then I ask someone who seems more knowledgeable than myself to share his wisdom, and you guys are fucking with me? All I am trying to do is get people to share info ..... so really what’s the fucking problem with that?
 

Nick M

Black Rifles Matter
Sep 9, 2005
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14.7:1 is chemically correct, but not because the engine runs good, because the cat runs most effectively. That is why it was an incomplete statement.
 

supranasty

Yo Daddy
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bountykilla0118;1606848 said:
Its funny I don’t recall stating my stance .... I asked a question b/c most people say 11.5-12.5 is the leanest you should run. Then I posted some decent info on the basics of tuning. Then I ask someone who seems more knowledgeable than myself to share his wisdom, and you guys are fucking with me? All I am trying to do is get people to share info ..... so really what’s the fucking problem with that?
Its cool Man, Thats what this is all about . Just giving what I have learned the hard way .
Your post #48 had a big article . Thought you wanted basic info from our field .
I should see what my beast can make on a dynojet.....
last time I scored 366rwhp. on a mustang dyno.
Guess I dont want to blow my motor up standing still.
Be Carefull you gotta love a SUPRA
 
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bountykilla0118

In Pursuit of 500rwhp
Jul 16, 2005
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The thing is I understand what is being said .... but for the people who don’t understand ..... there is has to be clarity. I tune my car for 11.5 but I have the skills to keep my car a live and to fix it if it breaks. I haven't blown a motor since 2005 and I have two mkIII with slightly different setups that are making strong numbers that take abuse every time I turn the key. My hard top made 467rwhp and 493tq on 66mm turbo, on a stock motor with a stock headgasket, arp head studs, lex Afm, and 550’s. I have been hassle free. Call me lucky? The targa made 349rwhp and 411tq again stock motor, stock head gasket, arp head studs with a boss bolt on turbo running 440’s and lex afm call me lucky?

I have friends who made me tune their cars to 12 and refuse to do any richer. Your experience is your experience ..... How did you come to the conclusion that your tune was the reason you had to learn the hard way? Now with my meth kit I m looking to push 22-24psi with my new setup on pump …. I personally like to push the envelope after I get enough data to do it. I call it calculated risk so if it does not break don’t just call me lucky because I have put a lot of thought into it. 7m are a great platform but most 7m owners, most not all, operate on lower budgets, and are very conservative, just like the tune of the stock ECU (TCCS). Very rich and conservative timing compared to other cars.

But that’s my 2 cent..... I am just a lucky guy, having great luck over the last 5 years.
 

supranasty

Yo Daddy
Apr 12, 2005
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Luck Beats Handsome . LOL

My luck is'nt that good. But they say im Handsome . (LMFAO)
What ET's you getting ? Standalones ? EMS ?
My budget is short though . I only use lex/550, safr and AEM wideband.

I Gotta visit the ATL
 

Nick M

Black Rifles Matter
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queenskid926;1596048 said:
how are you hitting fuel cut with the lexus afm and 550cc injectos only at 15lbs? I thought it raised it to around 20 or so

In terms you are using, and not the correct CFM explination listed, stock fuel cut is 11-13 psi, depending on conditions. The Lex meter is 25% bigger, so fuel cut is 25% higher. That is where he is, and then some with that bigger turbo.

TheNewRed;1597934 said:
thats damn impressive. How many people have broken 400WHP with a 57 trim?

It probably isn't hard with a different exhaust housing. I did 255 rwhp @ 5613 rpm on a Mustang dyno at 10.1 psi with the Boss Jr 57.

supranasty;1606575 said:
In My book also Rich is Your friend . LIL Lean makes more power and has caused alot of stock computer 7MGTE's to go LS1 .LOL ,

That is all myself and Kenny were saying. I said it leaves room for error, so did he. Lean is mean. It makes big power, but will leave a hole in piston quickly if something goes wrong. That is why compression from the factory is 8.4:1. To leave a margin of error for the masses who will buy the cheapest gas they can get their hands on.