The mk3 of jet fighters

[Wills7MGTE]

This is just a 10min vid of the f-14 tomcat, some good info and awesome footage throughout the video, they finally got rid of it which was premature but hey I don't cut the navy's checks. I just kinda relate the tomcat a lil to mk3 supra's, although old and expensive to maintain they still have a lot of use in them and a unique look thats hard to outdo, even shared some of the powerplant issues that the mk3 had, IE being underpowered and semi unreliable in the beggining of service, hence the 1jz later on. LOL enjoy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DOogqsbxfJo

 

[Junior]

tomcat was alot of things, but underpowered was never really one of them.

 

[Supracentral]

tomcat was alot of things, but underpowered was never really one of them.

I wouldn't call it "underpowered" either, but conservation of energy is a real concern when flying one. It's not like the new F-18 Super Hornets that generate more thrust than they weigh. You can stand one of those things on it's tail and go ballistic. You can't really do that with a Tomcat...

Every move in a dogfight that costs you energy in a Tomcat is devastating. They bleed speed and altitude like mad and it's hard to get them back. Anyone who even understands the basics of a dogfight knows that energy (as stored in altitude and speed) is what it's all about. The plane that runs out of energy is a dead duck.

Jetjock can probably chime in on this.

(All of my flight time is simulator time, so I'm a virtual pilot, he's a real one...)

 

[Fuzz420]

Awsome plane. I love how the wings swooped back and they would go into mach speeds.

 

[jdub]

As am I SC...got just under 2000 hours in the F-16
As we said flying when fighting air-to-air..."airspeed is life"

The "Tom Kitty" was underpowered with the TF30 engines. Very easy to beat down on energy...as soon as the wings spread (they're automatic), a smile would come on my face. He was slow and he was a dead duck. When they upgraded the engines to the GE110-400, it made a huge difference in the F-14's ability to dogfight. It still could not match the turn rate of an F-16 or F-18. All we had to do was keep our airspeed at low corner and simply out rate him...took a little longer, but it ended the same way...30 frames of gun film

 

[drunk_medic]

They did something else to some Tomcats that I can relate to - they outfitted few with the AN/AAQ-14 LANTIRN Targeting pod, making it a "Bombcat". I used to fix these pods in a backshop environment. This targeting pod is one of the things that made the E-model F-15 "Eagle", and is/was also used on some models of F-16 aircraft.
The targeting pods have evolved, and they are using much better technology now, but during the Gulf War [part one] it was one of the things that gave amazing air to ground precision from a multi-role fighter.

It's too bad the Tomcat is retired - as a child I always saw it as one of those major symbols of US Airpower "Anytime, Baby".

 

[jdub]

The LANTIRN Targeting Pod is a wonderful thing

The F-16 Block 40 carries it and, as you said, the "Mud Hen" (F-15E). The F-14 got it in order to extend the life cycle of the aircraft...it just finally got too old and too costly to maintain.

Targeting pods make acquiring/ID a lot easier, especially combined with GPS. The other pods you alluded to are the LITENING and SNIPER. Both are advanced targeting pods designed to replace the LANTIRN...it was originally designed to be used with the LANTIRN Nav Pod for the low level capability required for when the "big one" was going to be in Europe. That threat has diminished/changed. The new pods are a standalone targeting system.

 

[drunk_medic]

The LANTIRN Targeting Pod is a wonderful thing

The F-16 Block 40 carries it and, as you said, the "Mud Hen" (F-15E). The F-14 got it in order to extend the life cycle of the aircraft...it just finally got too old and too costly to maintain.

Targeting pods make acquiring/ID a lot easier, especially combined with GPS. The other pods you alluded to are the LITENING and SNIPER. Both are advanced targeting pods designed to replace the LANTIRN...it was originally designed to be used with the LANTIRN Nav Pod for the low level capability required for when the "big one" was going to be in Europe. That threat has diminished/changed. The new pods are a standalone targeting system.

Yeah, I knew about the other two pods - I just didn't research or know if the knowledge was publicly released. When I finished my year working LANTIRN backshop in Korea, I had just heard about SNIPER [I guess ANG units in Utah were supposed to get them] and LITENING was already online and/or being tested at a base near where I used to be stationed. They are probably contract only maintenance - the Sensors career field [2A1x1] was dissolved and combined with Comm/Nav, and it sucks. That's what happened to me.
Since, I have seen LITENING on A-10s, and it's about damn time; I bet pilots were getting tired of the A-10's laser receive-only [need someone/thing else to lase a target] Pave Penny pod [little dingy under the cockpit, forward of the NLG on a little pylon].

 

[MDCmotorsports]

Correct me if Im wrong, but didn't the early Tomkitty engines stall because they couldn't do high G's?

 

[Nick M]

They are probably contract only maintenance - the Sensors career field [2A1x1] was dissolved and combined with Comm/Nav, and it sucks. That's what happened to me.

So why not apply to LSI/EG&G, or Lockheed Martin? Or do you just not want to do it anymore?

 

[Wills7MGTE]

It still sucks its gone, it was a great plane. The F18 isn't the world's greatest in terms on range and armament. I've seen video footage of an F22 Raptor against 6 F15's and the Raptor ate them all with no problems, so I'd say the 15,16 and 18 aren't far from being out classed either.

 

[drunk_medic]

So why not apply to LSI/EG&G, or Lockheed Martin? Or do you just not want to do it anymore?

Actually, Nick, I thought about working for Raytheon or Lockheed, as I had years working with contractors from each company throughout my 9 years, and I guess I had "connections" of some sort. I still may attempt to get a job with one of those companies, but for now I have secured a decent contractor job at the Yuma Proving Grounds where I make good money and the overtime is insane [I am used to working these kinds of hours, so it is good for me]. The job is also interesting and extremely important to our troops, so I have a good sense of purpose and pride.

 

[jdub]

Yeah, I knew about the other two pods - I just didn't research or know if the knowledge was publicly released

It has...that's why I was able to talk about it. Notice I didn't say anything about capability though
A pod for the A-10 was long over due IMO.

Correct me if Im wrong, but didn't the early Tomkitty engines stall because they couldn't do high G's?

It was actually related to high angles of attack which can be induced by high G turns...it can also happen (more likely) at low speed and rolling while turning type maneuvers. I never saw an F-14 engine stall, but did see it once on an early model F-16A with the Pratt engine...I was behind him setting up a gun shot and it happened just as I pilled the trigger. A very large fireball shot out the tail pipe and intake...scared the daylights out of me...I thought the gun ran for a second (it didn't). Anyway, the motor recovered and we went home

I've seen video footage of an F22 Raptor against 6 F15's and the Raptor ate them all with no problems, so I'd say the 15,16 and 18 aren't far from being out classed either.

You have no idea
The Raptor is an incredible fighter...I would not want one after me.

 

[Junior]

errr, I totally forgot I posted here.

by the end there I think the tomcat was basicly just a naval platform for the AIM 154 wasn't it? I don't think that plane was ever expected to go into a knifefight and make it out in 1 piece.

 

[Dirgle]

I was at a military air show recently and they were demonstrating some of the ability's of the new F/A-18E/F super hornet. It was pitched up at roughly a 75 degree angle moving slowly forward. At its slowest it was doing 77 mph, it looked like it was just hovering. Then it did something even more amazing, it when in to after burner and proceeded to climb from that AOA. It was ridiculous, the amount of power a plane wound need climb and gain airspeed from a controlled stall is simply insain.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aexKsmyA1Zo

The maneuver I'm talking about occurs at approx. 5:10

 

[Supracentral]

I was at a military air show recently and they were demonstrating some of the ability's of the new F/A-18E/F super hornet. It was pitched up at roughly a 75 degree angle moving slowly forward. At its slowest it was doing 77 mph, it looked like it was just hovering. Then it did something even more amazing, it when in to after burner and proceeded to climb from that AOA. It was ridiculous, the amount of power a plane wound need climb and gain airspeed from a controlled stall is simply insane.

Yea, this will be the same as it always is. Older pilots talking about conservation of energy, speed and altitude and the "kids" will be giggling in the back of the class...

They'll be pointing at JJ and Jdub while JJ is saying something like "Hey JD, remember the old days when you couldn't stand a bird on it's tail and make it dance around like a ballerina?"

 

[Dirgle]

I agree, this sort of maneuver doesn't have much real world application in combat, and the blatant wast and inefficient use of energy would lower the survival rate of any pilot. However it's fun to imagine the possibility's of something powerful enough to pull that off. It was the ability to imagine what you could do with that much power that gave the F-14 its mystique, and its place in the hearts and minds of the American people.

Maybe it's an American idea to it's core. Damed efficiency give me more POWER Scotty! It's the reason we love our big trucks, big engines, and powerful jets.

 

[Supracentral]

It's the reason we love our big trucks, big engines, and powerful jets.

And Supras

 

[jdub]

Dirgle - What you're describing is the F-18's ability to sustain high angle of attack or high "alpha". In a close in fight, this actually does have tactical application...it is very unnerving to see the opposing fighter crank his nose around and point at you

 

[Supracentral]

Dirgle - What you're describing is the F-18's ability to sustain high angle of attack or high "alpha". In a close in fight, this actually does have tactical application...it is very unnerving to see the opposing fighter crank his nose around and point at you

Give me a plane that can do a non-ballistic move like that any day...

It's back to what I was talking about earlier. When you've got that much of an energy surplus you can quickly and easily add energy. You can convert it to potential or kinetic at a whim. In a close in knife fight like we're talking about, the plane with that much surplus power will define the terms of the battle and will be filling the offensive role 99 times out of 100. Unless the pilot is a complete ham fisted idiot, but that's another story...