Options for 400whp (Piggyback vs Standalone)

[Radial]

I have a set of 440's going into my JDM JZX90 1J single BW S200SX-RS51 drift-setup.
Been running this single-setup on stock ECU @ 10-12PSI this year and it's been an excellent setup with a good response, but I need more power on the grippy tracks.
I'd like to do this the best but easiest way...I have almost unlimited access to this "Truck rear axle dyno" (no measurements, but brakes the rear wheels) in vid below... so no need for running crazy on the public roads.

[video=youtube_share;xbM4RlQoMhc]http://youtu.be/xbM4RlQoMhc[/video]


I feel quite stranded between these options:

- AEM FIC (6 channel) to 380$ complete and shipped. Can clamp stock MAP to bypass fuelcut. Has internal MAP up to 20 PSI or similar
- eManage Blue with all harnesses (Fuel AND ignition) for 450$ shipped Can clamp stock ECU MAP signal, but still uses stock MAP up to 20 PSI or similar
- Megasquirt 3 v3.0 w/MS3X board for sequentuial everything + harness etz 620$ shipped. (I will do a P&P wiring with the stock ECU plugs, for simplicity really)

I'm thinking about tuning this myself... as to exercise my brain cells a bit too.:biglaugh:
I would probably NEVER need the functionality of the MS3, but its damn cheap and flexible.

In MY mind this is how i think:
The AEM FIC to me looks like a damn good unit.... it has exactly what I need; a fully adjustable Ignition and Fuel table + Wideband input and MAP/MAP clamp. But some states minor issues with noise on the VR triggers on the JZ engines (after alot of research) causing breakups and some non-start conditions, and none of them looks solved...at least on the net, resulting in "Its a sitty product".
The eManage might be enough.... probably a very reliable unit, but has very limited functionality, I see almost no reviews of the Software, and its and old school cheap ass RS232 product form the early 90's.
The MS3 speaks for it self...but I need to dig really deep into the tuning dynamics to get this working.

What do YOU think?
Experiences, Good or bad are welcome.

 

[nathaninwa]

Not to dis the MS stuff, I don't think your at that point to needing it. Plus, its hard to beat the stocks ecu cold start, hot start and idle control for working everytime. Id do the aem stuff. The emanage needs a lot of costly adapters to work. Maybe look into the noisy signals of the crank and cam sensors. Might just be poorly grounded blocks, or some corroded wiring at the plugs, that just need about 4 inches of the wiring replaced.

 

[Radial]

Good arguments nathaninwa... I really don't worry too much about the signal noise, as long as the AEM unit is reliable.
The MS3 is a very challenging unit, and as you mention with both Idle, Cold and hotstarts.... And I don't need it for my 400 target, It's just that almost EVERYONE says so.... damn annoying.

The eManage requires a Rs232 adapter yes.. and it's just a "Add fuel/Timing" unit... it can't remove fuel due to it's design by just "adding an extra pulse of fuel".... it would need to fuck up the MAP signal to do so. Here the AEM unit controls the entire Ignition/Fuel without touching the MAP signal to the stock ECU...

It all just adds to my feeling that the AEM is a good unit.

More experiences?

 

[Dylan JZ]

you can easily and safely do 400whp (there are plenty that have done more) with an SAFC and usdm 550s.. anything beyond 550s usually makes for a good argument to switch to standalone.

once you pass the limitations of an SAFC, and I'm going to be blunt with you, stop right there and get serious if you are not already. this is when AEM v2, Motec, Haltech, ProEFI, etc should be considered. MS3 is in there too, but I have no experience with it, nor do I know anyone with experience.

AEM FIC, eManage/other piggybacks are all bandaid tuning tools just like the SAFC, but at least the SAFC doesn't play at what it is not. in the end, you do pay to play, and that's just the reality of the situation. If you want the power and performance at that higher level, then there should be no compromises made IMO. do it right the first time.

 

[hvyman]

Ms3 can do what ever you want it to. Cold and hot start idles. Can run off stock isc or a gm or ford isc.

If you make your own harness from scratch can have seq fuel stock is not so wiring a patch harness will not work for that. Stock does have seq ignition tho.
Also can have knock control boost control anti lag and launch control nos 2 stages. What ever you want. Also have safety setting and over boost and rev limiting.
For the how cheap ms3 it's awesome. Can do what ever an aem can do for half the price and there is a full forum full of ma users that can help you tune.
I'm in the process of doing ms3 right now and it will be daily driven after.

There is not set hp for when needing a standalone. Stock Ecu runs rich and there prone to failure with the capacitors.

Also that dyno look sketchy. What kind of speed is it rated for?

 

[Radial]

SAFC is noted... I just don't like the idea of messing with the stock MAP signal...you just don't know what the ECU will do, and you have to guess. The AEM looks more solid at that point.... the changes you make on ignition/injectors looks more controllable and refined. Besides of the AEM beeing more refined, it's identical to a SAFC.... Piggyback is a Piggyback. But then you then still have the good knock-controller the stock ECU present... the MS3 needs alot of fine-tuning to get the knock-control to work, as its VERY sensitive to Engine noise vs a Real knock.

And yes... standalones have TONS of extra stuff.... but I just don't need Launch control, NOS, Antilagg etz... so If I can manage this with the stock ECU + Piggyback it would be the best option. But if it is a Pain in the ass to work with a Piggyback+Stock ECU, then the standalone option is the best.... and if the Greddy Emange is a better unit then the AEM, I need inputs on that... That's why I started this thread


My idea behind the simple " MS3 Patch harness" is to run Semi-sequential injectors (as stock), and Factory igniter in full sequential ignition (as stock).
This is because I have a almost New Ignition system with New pigtails, New Superspark Coils, New iginiter etc... and I really feel the stock Ignition setup is more than good enough for my WHP goals.... and "upgrading" to LS-X smart coils just sounds like a waste of money at this time.
Stock fuel system makes the 440's a "drop in", and with some luck and a "good tune" :naughty: 400whp is within the theoretical limits...but yes, the fuelpressure must be ~50psi at full boost to squeeze enough juice
through the 440 injectors. It's a 290lph MK4 Supra pump in the tank...and fuel filter is almost brand new...so there is enough fuel-supply.

And my RS-51 compressor runs of breath at ~47 lbs/min, So over 450whp is out of the question anyways.... So i'd say 400whp with some efficiency left in the compressor is more realistic.
As for the ECU, I replaced my capacitors already in 2010.... I did it before they went bad :nono: All though it seems like the JDM ECU's are not affected by the capacitor issues, and it's more related to the US Spec 1JZ.... but at least i'm safe.


That dyno is "rated" the same speeds as a Volvo Truck, lol :biglaugh:... it's a Rear axle of a truck with the stock ~"20 tonn" Air brakes, and you bleed of the brake pressure when you want resistance...as Truck brakes are fail-safe to automaticly lock if you loose air pressure.
Regulate the bleed of air to the brakes, increases/decreases the ammout of brakes applied. The axle is also a "on demand Full locker"-axle, modified to 100% lock at all times (Simply welding a locker shaft in the differential really). The axle is welded to a solid metal frame that is fixed to the foundation. It has been revised a couple of times, but now it's Rock-steady and have tuned 700-900whp monster V8's for about two years now (My buddy is a Turbo&Supercharger LS-X tuning expert now, lol, but has no experience with small JZ engines).
Costs was around 500$ with all hardware, axle and transportation... took a few days to install it, and works like a charm. You dont get any numbers out of it, but at least you can tune yourself legally OFFroad...

 

[nathaninwa]

An safc will get you there too. I didn't mention it because you seem to have an informed list your working from. 525gte has a 1j with a safc2 and with 440's made 413/365 before a turbo swap. We've noticed its not 100% dail reliable, as the tune seems to change. Not sure if its how the info is read, and things like air temp make a differece or not.

MS3 is totally doable, and he is right completely tunable, but for out of the box performance, at thw power level your aiming for, you can't beat the reliabilty of a stock ecu, with a piggyback controller that can tune timing (very important as the safc can't do that)

If you've never done standalone, get your feet wet with the aem controller. (Says the guy who is going series2 from the get go! But I've worked with standalones and know a good tuner (which really what it comes down too))

 

[Radial]

An safc will get you there too. I didn't mention it because you seem to have an informed list your working from. 525gte has a 1j with a safc2 and with 440's made 413/365 before a turbo swap. We've noticed its not 100% dail reliable, as the tune seems to change. Not sure if its how the info is read, and things like air temp make a differece or not.

Yes, I'm very mutch informed about the SAFC form before... I kinda put ut out of the question due to it's design/function...
I've read about that "out of tune" happening to many SAFC's.... And the most reasonable answer to it is probably the stock ECU's closed-loop auto-adjustment, changing the entire stock Fuel/ignition map over time.
The same thing would probably happen with a FIC, so i'm thinking to get rid of Closed loop in general by just removing the closed-loop feedback; The o2 sensor. (as this is a Pure race-car anyways, and Miles pr Gallon gets kinda irrelevant).
So i'll be running Open loop constantly... nothing should change much with closed loop out of the question.

 

[Dylan JZ]

I've never had an issue with the AFC Neo affecting my car in the ways listed above, and let's just say weather in FL rapidly changes day to day, specifically this time of year (then again, I also have a TRD ecu with multiple revisions, so that may be the difference). That being said, it is what it is, and you do have a point. There is also no reason to worry about adjusting stock timing IMO at the 440/550cc level. You're not having to pull enough fuel to adversely affect it at that stage, so it's kind of whatever. Now if you want to add/retard timing for whatever reason, well then back to standalone the advice goes.

 

[theprodigy79]

I'll just toss this in from my research...

I was actually researching the F/IC for my car recently and chose to go in a different direction...

Just of note; the AEM F/IC would need to be the 8 channel version to run properly with our cars due to the frequency output from the AFM rather than voltage.

Unfortunately, from what I understand, the 7M / 1J ECUs are finicky with the F/IC and the overall results are sporadic... Of all the research I've done, I have not found a single positive experience running one on the MKIII Supra (MKIV Supras are a different story, however their ECUs are smarter from the get go)...

Realizing many people will say 'a piggy-back is a piggy-back', I've heard many positive things about the Megasquirt for our cars.

 

[DOUBL3 D]

Subscribed to this thread, as I'm contemplating the same issues for 400-450whp on pump gas and a single turbo setup

 

[Radial]

I'll just toss this in from my research...

I was actually researching the F/IC for my car recently and chose to go in a different direction...

Just of note; the AEM F/IC would need to be the 8 channel version to run properly with our cars due to the frequency output from the AFM rather than voltage.

Unfortunately, from what I understand, the 7M / 1J ECUs are finicky with the F/IC and the overall results are sporadic... Of all the research I've done, I have not found a single positive experience running one on the MKIII Supra (MKIV Supras are a different story, however their ECUs are smarter from the get go)...

Realizing many people will say 'a piggy-back is a piggy-back', I've heard many positive things about the Megasquirt for our cars.

Luckily 1JZ-GTE uses a normal voltage MAP sensor + IAT input only.... and not frequency based MAF's .... so the Voltage clamp, as the FIC-6 represents, should work perfectly in those terms.
And if you went Megasquirt, you'll have to go MAP/IAT anyways.





All though, I figured out I do need to do some "serious" (dohh, work..lol) wiring with the FIC as well if I choose to use it.
As the Stock 1JZ is Semi-Sequential.... two and two injectors are Paralell.... in the electric world, two parallel identical resistors (representing the injectors in this formula) has a "rule of thumb" that half-ens the resistance in the circuit.

The math then becomes something this:
stock injectors(each): ~12ohms
Stock operating voltage: ~13V
Maximum current out of the FIC: 1,7A MAX (with protection though)

12 ohms injectors /2 = 6 ohms total resistance for each injector pair.

13volts/ 6ohm = 2,16Amps pr Injector load on the FIC

So we have a Overload contition on the FIC injector drivers if running in Semi Sequential.... So i'll need to figure something out there... I dont know how the stock 440 high impedance injectors reacts with 3-6 ohm resistors in series.
Because then we could add 3-6ohm to each Injector circuit again, and we'll end up with 13volts / 9 (or 12) ohms = 1,44A (or 1,08A)

Low impedance injectors are designed to operate at low voltage, therefore it works with stock Resistor boxes.... But High Impedance ones have little information.

If not, i'll have to wire up three extra wires to the FIC, from where the stock injectors Pair up in the wiring.... and run Semi-sequential in to the FIC from the ECU, and "full sequential" wiring from the FIC (though it will work as stock semi sequential, just wiring is full seq.)

 

[theprodigy79]

Ok, didn't know that 1J switched to voltage - that definitely makes things a bit easier...

I actually went with a MAP ECU 2

 

[Radial]

Just for information, I decided to go MS3 with MS3X board and fully Sequential with everything.
Will be using the stock igniter/coil setup though.... Stock ignition setup should handle both my Turbo and my 440's to the limit and beyond....

I could have gone the Piggyback route, but for the price of the MS i'm confident it's the correct way of doing this. This gives me more options if I decide to skip the entire car for something different in the future

Will post the results in February, Should get it ready for dyno at that time.

Thanks for the inputs in this thread though