Oil squirter bolt breakage

[ncv6coupe]

Hi everyone I want to see how common it is to break the oil squirter banjo bolts off in the block. Seemingly trouble free installation now I'm dreading this to the fullest.

Finishing up my build and decided I was going to delete them, we'll couldn't find a good enough length bolt locally, fine I'll reuse the old squirters as the benefits of keeping them are great. *bad idea* one snapped in block while torquing to 18ft/lb. ok off to Toyota to order 6 new ones.

Part#15703-66010

Fast forward 70 dollars later get them in mail a couple days later, lube the threads with assembly lube and installing this morning and dammit, doesn't feel like it's getting tight. Keep going just to have all six installed and come back around to torque them down. I'm tightening with torque wrench and being extra careful btw. First one breaks off, wrench never clicks. FU&K

Back the wrench down to 10ft/lbs. all good

Take it up to 15. Only one clicks the other 4(crying) still want to tighten.

What gives?

Did I miss an update that we did not want to get these tightened to TSRM spec?

Called Toyota and the first reaction was it's installed I don't know if we will replace, I'm like it has 12 month warranty, then he says they will need bolt back to check for cross threading and installer error. I'm like I promise I know how to put a bolt in a hole and tighten and the threads are not buggered up. They need to talk to manager so have to wait for Monday.

What do you guys torque your squirters to?

I'm more skeptical now even trying to take the 4 good ones to 15. Hope Toyota takes these 6 back and give me six new ones. I just don't trust these at all now.

 

[plaaya69]

I was able to toque mine down to spec on a 3/8" torque wrench with a 6" extension but you have to make sure they are clean, bone dry and free of any oil in the block threads and surfaces. Use some brake parts cleaner to make sure it is dry. I would not use assembly lube on that part because it will throw off your torque reading when you are torquing it down. I only used assembly lube on the main bearings, rod bearings, cylinder walls, oil pump drive assembly and all of the valve train components in the cylinder head.

 

[ncv6coupe]

Using brand new 3/8 torque wrench with 6" extension as well.

Put the dab of lube with the thought process to reduce friction. Block is very clean and has been covered in plastic bag, no grit or grime since coming out shop. I also cleaned thoroughly to catch anything that was missed.

So if an aha moment can come from this, with the oiled threads the friction is so low that in fact causing an over torque situation...... But using a torque wrench to tighten though.. fML

Thought the new bolts were indeed much stronger since the oil hole was not molested like the originals. It appears like toyota hand chamfered them for better flow.

The bolts are just twisting right at the threaded portion and oil hole and snapping clean. The ball and spring didn't even come out.

This just sucks having to waste this weekend and be at the mercy of the parts manager.

 

[Piratetip]

I also bought all new squirter bolts from Toyota to replace mine.
Didn't have any issues torquing them down.

Agree with plaaya, they were likely overtorqued due to the assembly lube used.
Have to be very careful with torque specs for any small fasteners, very easy to over-torque accidentally.

 

[ncv6coupe]

Hope I can help someone in the future from this experience. Never had this issue before so it sure will stick with me going forward on any work that I do. Good intentions none the less. When following any specs going forward I know to clearly research if they are dry or wet specs.

All of the bolts have 12-13ft\lb on them. I'm not touching them and will probably end up ordering one more when Toyota says they aren't going to replace it.

It would be nice to get a full set of six from them though.

I'll just have to wait and see how this investigation plays out.

 

[Piratetip]

Did it pull the threads out of the bolt or the block?

My guess is the cast iron block won that battle, which is much better than the alternative.

 

[ncv6coupe]

No block is fine, all holes are good.

The bolts are steel alloy so they are "strong" but that oil hole location takes a bunch of the twisting strength away. The pull away strength at torque is probably way higher than the twist strength for these squirter bolts. Note to self on any other hollowed out banjo bolt I ever touch.

They don't seem flimsy. I'm happy this is the way the cookie crumbled. Was just a big shocker to something that is extremely simple.

After u see inside the bolt when it's in pieces you can better understand why this happened.

 

[Piratetip]

Ah I see, it wasn't the threads.
Just snapped in half @ the weak point where the cross hole was machined.

 

[suprarx7nut]

Overtorqued.

Either your torque wrench is off or the assembly lube added enough lubrication that the bolt was under far more stress than designed before the wrench registerred the correct value. Maybe both.

 

[ncv6coupe]

Funny thing is I have three torque wrenches. The little 3/8" one clicks free before the half inch which has been used for months. Used a brand new wrench knowing how delicate these are. So it actually breaks free at less than spec from initial test or my half inch is worn and reads lower, likely the case.

I also have a beam style, which is what I see in tsrm a couple times. Problem is Gauge is in +5 increments, lol close enough when it's in middle methodology. Didn't want to do that either.

I get it to a point, I believe I will get a full swap since I'm nervous that one will let go after heat cycling a couple times.

I really don't want to roll the dice on this. Just my luck

 

[ncv6coupe]

Pulled the other 5 out tonight. Getting 6 new ones.

Yikes is all I can say. 4 registering 12-13 and 1 at 15. Didn't try to go higher.

 

[Piratetip]

Wow they have all twisted @ the cross hole.
Get your torque wrenches verified they are reading correct.

 

[ncv6coupe]

Wow they have all twisted @ the cross hole.
Get your torque wrenches verified they are reading correct.

Next round I'm putting loctite red and going to 10 on the beam wrench. Something is amiss here.

 

[andrew_mx83]

The little 3/8" one clicks free

I think this (along with lube on a dry torque spec) is your problem. Most torque wrenches don't "click free" - they click when you reach the set torque value but do not stop transmitting torque. If you keep pulling you are still (over) tightening the bolt.
It's a pretty common mistake, ive seen lots of people do it.

18lb isn't that much over nipped up, certainly not enough to break those bolts.

Buy 6 new ones, install them dry, stop when the wrench clicks and chalk it upto a good and (relatively) cheap lesson

 

[andrew_mx83]

Also, check/chase the threads in the block

 

[ncv6coupe]

I think this (along with lube on a dry torque spec) is your problem. Most torque wrenches don't "click free" - they click when you reach the set torque value but do not stop transmitting torque. If you keep pulling you are still (over) tightening the bolt.


18lb isn't that much over nipped up, certainly not enough to break those bolts.

Buy 6 new ones, install them dry, stop when the wrench clicks and chalk it upto a good and (relatively) cheap lesson

Click free didn't mean stop turning all together, strange wording on my part. You are absolutely correct on ability to keep torquing on bolts after the click. This wasn't the case here. They just never got there.

I've researched a bunch of bolt stretch theory since last weekend and found info that 40% reduction in setting is a good estimate of tightening threads when wet vs dry. This includes anti seize, loctite, oil, moly lube. You name it.

I backed the wrench down to 10lbs and came up 1lb at a time to check my sanity after the first one popped. This was after I started this thread out of curiosity.

Now that I removed them all and can clearly see what was happening. At 12-13lbs they all started twisting again. That's where I stopped and contacted the dealer about the issue. The stretch-break window is very small. 40% puts them at 10-11lbs.

Truly lesson learned, what I will say is don't use these more than once in any build anyone is performing if they are ever removed. Because the stretch upsets the banjo hole, It surely affects the inner tension on the ball Likely prematurely leaking high rpm oil pressure and squirting early.

Threads will be a q tipped dry when the new ones come. Can't run a chase through the threads now. Rotating assembly is already installed. Im going to 10 on the beam with loctite and calling it a day.

 

[Raven97990]

Dont lube the threads. Only lube the threads if it specifically calls for it otherwise you're over torquing them. Also why ARP provides 2 specs, using their lube and using 30wt oil.

When torquing under 15 ftlbs I generally prefer a 1/4 torque wrench as it has greater range.

 

[ncv6coupe]

Ok I'm not going to lube them at all.

I will Clean threads out and give it a go dry. I promise I'm not trying to go against the grain and can understand what everyone has stated to start fresh and trust the 18ft/lb is right. They just feel off when tightening, can't put it in words. Waiting another week if one lets go will hurt a bunch.

Does anyone have any pictures of squirters they've removed from a build they did from bottom up? Same part number on bolts is essential to or state what number they were? There are 3 numbers floating around that work for 7m.

I'd like to see them for comparison sake. I agree with the over torque theory. Just a FYI the Toyota techs at the dealer question why it's that high. Most probably never touch these again after they build their motor and I know I'm not the first this has happened to. Figure they don't get much thought or attention since these are throw away parts that usually go right to the bin when/if pulled out or don't want to seem silly for getting same failure multiple times so don't speak on it. Idk I'm an open book, can never know too much so I'm listening and putting it all out here for feedback.

Unused vs torqued 1 time show clear deformation in these new bolts. The old ones did not do this. And I had them in and out 3 times.

2jz spec is 78in/lbf (Less than 7ft/lb). Not sure if the thread pitch/bolt material is the same but I'll assume bolt material is, Toyota QC wouldn't have it any other way with the part number replacement that took place. Anyone have a pic of one of those bolts removed from a build as well? This is really my main point of concern. I don't want to end up in a self inflicted c'mon man situation again.

Here's a pic of them when I just pulled them out package last weekend next to what I assume is the original from an 87 block. Motor had federal mogul bearings when I got car and super clean /unabused, had minor bhg on #6 that would seal above idle rpm. I then rebuilt and went all forged everything with +.5mm pistons since engine was sitting around and power goals went up.

I could also go off on tangent and question why head bolts got "only" 58 and these got 18. But then I'd be doing too much in one thread.

 

[Piratetip]

I will take some photos of the ones I removed later today.

 

[Raven97990]

2JZ bolts are 6mm thread, those are what, 10mm thread? Substantially different in torque requirements, and in design. 7M is a banjo bolt style, JZ engines are a totally different design and the only thing the bolt does is hold the squirter in place.