MK3 cps with 2jzge

[adam8103]

Hi, I have a lexus sc300 with my na-t setup, I replaced the distributor for the mk3 cps, I have TT ignitor, TT coil pack, aem ems 1101. I dont get the stat sync signal on the aem ems coming from the cps, i read a lot on it but i dont find the right anwser. I need to know the exact wiring for the cps swap and the exact aem ems settings. we tried evrything we could find online but we still got no spark. I double checked the ignitor wiring and i am pretty sure everything is ok but getting the sync signal comes first anyways, so i have to know how to make it work.

Thanks a lot... i need this set up running.

I already have a thread on Supra Forum but i thought i would share on here as well...

http://www.supraforums.com/forum/showthread.php?p=6690431&posted=1#post6690431

 

[p5150]

I didnt realize that you had posted here as well. Here is a copy of what happened on SF. The other forum is skiddish and tends to take a shit once in awhile. All of the following posts are just a sequential copy of the conversation on SF.

ophidicus: do you have a TT ignitor or 7mgte ignitor? and do you have the MK3 Coilpack assembly or TT Coilpacks?

adam8103: TT ignitor (2jzgte) TT coil pack (2jzgte) i also tried to get the signal reinstalling my stock distributor and i got signal and spark in good fire order. that means that all my coil pack and ignitor wiring is right. I dont know if the cps is bad or if it was hooked up badly...

ophidicus: I would use a universal crank trigger and put it on your crank pulley. what are you using for cam reference? the aem needs crank and cam signal to work properly.

motorheaddown: You didn't mention this, but did you run 5 additional coil driver wires from the AEM to the igniter to support the additional coils? Also, I'd keep the distributor base until all the bugs are worked out - then, transition to the MKIII CPS. It's easier to solve one problem at a time.

-scott

adam8103: yes the ignitor is hooked up properly and when i take the signal from the original 2jzge distributor without the cap on it i can fire any of the 6 coils from the aem. i tested coil #1 and spark plug #1 fired, tested coil#6 and #6 plug fired. but when comes the time to use cps, i cant get the stat syncsignal so the aem does not allow the spark since there is no signal from the cps.

ophidicus: here's the wiring diagram incase you need it. sounds like you just need cam signal our distributors have both I believe cam and crank built in.

kings_blend: Everything is wired correctly. Im thinking its a bad cps because stat sync'd does not turn on during cranking so the ECU is not getting a signal from the cps. Once the stock dizzy was put back in place to test stat sync'd came on right away during cranking. From what Ive read the mk3 cps and the aem dont like eachother very much so its hit and miss with finding one that will work with your ems.

adam8103: we tried different setting on the AEM and we tried to switch wiring on the cps, to make sure we had the good way, but nothing. is there anyone that know or have their cal file with TT coil pack and MK3 CPS and the way they wired the MK3 CPS. that would be nice.

p5150: My car runs with the setup you are using. Give me a bit to compile a reply and I will share all of my info with you.

 

[p5150]

30-1100 AEM with a MK3 CPS, TT Ignitor, TT coils and 2nd gen AEM CDI in a 1988 Supra (Originally turbo)

My process basically consisted of matching the functions of the wires on the MKIV diagram with the functions of the wires on the MKIII diagram. Some of the stuff is a bit different but most of it is the same.

I didnt realize how much of this is a bit hazy to me. I just finished a big move down to southern california. I havent really spent any time on the car lately.

The 2JZGTE signal is a bit different than the 7MGTE. On the 2JZ, the G1 signal is sent when #6 is at TDC and the G2 is sent at #1 TDC. This really doesnt matter because you are using a wasted spark setup, but I just though you may want to know.

NE should be set for a 24 tooth calibration.

Setup -> Sensors -> Cam/Crank Sensors -> Advanced Cam/Crank -> Advanced Pickups

Fuel teeth - 24
Spark Teeth - 12
Ign Range - 3.0
Tooth time min - 50ms
Remaining boxes unchecked

Sync early - checked
Crank Sync skip - unchecked
missing - 0
sync test - 24 teeth
mx time - 0 %
sync teeth - 1
error r/s - 11
sync ignore - 0 rpm

crank falling edge - checked
cam falling edge - checked
all others unchecked

sync cam count - checked
others unchecked

crank H sensor below - 500
crank L sensor above - 400
cam high sensor below - 500
cam low sensor above - 400
spare speed h sens - 1300
spare speed l sens - 1200




Connector "A" Pin # - Description

1 - Switched 12V input
2 - Vehicle Speed Sensor
3 - NI (Not Installed)
4 - NI
5 - NI
6 - Check Engine Light
7 - NI
8 - HS1 output
9 - NI
10 thru 15 - NI
16 - Tach
17 - Connected but not hooked up to anything (extra output if req)
18 - NI
19 - NI
20 - Connected but not hooked up to anything (extra output if req)
21 - NI
22 - Fuel pump control
23 - NI
24 - NI (originally used by AEM ECU to turn on main 12v relay. I wired the relay directly to the switched 12v key outlet)
25 thru 32 - NI
33 - 12v constant batt
34 - NI
35 - NI


Connector "B" Pin # - Description

1 - NI
2 - NI
3 - vehicle speed sensor
4 - NI
5 - NI
6 - Cam sensor 1 (G1) ground (I have this noted as the WHITE wire on the CPS)
7 - Crank sensor (NE) ground (I have this noted as the GREEN wire on the CPS)
8 - Connected but not hooked up to anything (extra input if req)
9 - Connected but not hooked up to anything (extra output if req)
10 - Connected but not hooked up to anything (extra output if req)
11 thru 14 - NI
15 thru 20 - Injectors
21 - NI
22 - Connected but not hooked up to anything (extra output if req)
23 - Speed sensor - not sure if wired to the output from the speedometer
24 - Oil temp sensor
25 - NI
26 - Cam sensor G1 Input (I have this noted as the RED wire on the CPS)
27 - Crank sensor NE Input (I have this noted as the BLACK wire on CPS)
28 - Sensor Ground
29 thru 31 - NI
32 thru 35 - Idle Control
36 - NI
37 thru 40 - NI
41 - 5v reference
42 - NI
43 - TPS signal input
44 - coolant sensor
45 - air temp sensor
46 - not used
47 - AFR #1 ( I think this is wired to the output of my UEGO WB O2)
48 - NI
49 - Knock 2
50 - Knock 1
51 thru 54 - NI
55 - Ignitor 3 (Coil 3)
56 - Ignitor 2 (coil 2)
57 - Ignitor 1 (coil 1)
58 - NI
59 - O2 sensor relay ON switched ground
60 - boost control
61 - Circuit open relay switched ground
62 - map sensor input
63 - NI
64 - NI
65 - sensor ground
66 - spare 0-5v input (Connected but not hooked up to anything)
67 - NI
68 - Connected but not hooked up to anything (extra output if req)
69 - Chassis ground
70 thru 75 - NI
76 - Connected but not hooked up to anything (extra output if req)
77 - NI
78 - Ground
79/80 - chassis ground

 

[p5150]

adam8103: Thank you, i will try it soon, and i do not use wasted spark since i have the TT supra coilpack so i guess it does mather for when G2 and G1 signal is sent !
i will let you guys know when i will try it. For now i have another problem to solve

ophidicus: Good Luck

 

[p5150]

The AEM uses wasted spark. You are using wasted spark.

Once you have a sync indication, you can start worrying about the ignitor.

Right now, the ignitor is not a part of the problem (at least you cant determine if it is) because the AEM isnt tripping it. The AEM wont fire the ignitor unless you have a good sync indication.

Eventually, you will be able to adjust the timing after everything is indicating correctly.

When you are setting the timing ENSURE that your battery is FULLY charged. A partially drained battery will lag the spark and give you a false indication of what your timing is really set at.

 

[p5150]

kings_blend: The problem isnt the settings in the AEM, the problem is the CPS itself, the AEM does not get a signal from the CPS at all.... I know because I saw it with my own eyes.

adam8103: i already tried all the coil and ignition system and it does work, i have been able to test it with the factory 2jzge distributor i just did not put the cap on it. and the coils pack were fireing corectly.

p5150: Well thats good that you know that the ignition system works. Did you double check how you have the CPS wired to the AEM? Are you using both G signals? Is it wired the same as mine?

p5150: When you say that the AEM isnt getting a signal from the CPS, what parameter were you looking at?

adam8103: I have not checked it yet i will tonight, i was using both G signal though. and the parameter we were looking at was the stat sync signal

 

[p5150]

I only use one G signal. You can see from my setup that one of the G's is disconnected. This way, if one of them is ever on the fritz you can just switch the output directly at the CPS. There are two G outputs from the CPS. One indicates TDC #6 and the other indicates TDC #1. If you take the cover off you can see that they are opposite of each other on the wheel.

Like I said earlier, you are using a wasted spark setup so it makes using either/or a little bit easier. You dont have to use both, and if you are setting your AEM the same as mine this may be part of your problem.

kings_blend: We are looking at all the parameters in the cam/crank sensor window, none of them show any signs of glitching or anything, that is why I say the cps is at fault. With the distributor connected I get stat syn'd to come on right away, thats how we are getting spark with the TT coils and ignitor.

http://www.mkiv.com/specifications/ncf/ncf93/ncf108.jpg

Page 13 of this: http://www.offroadpakistan.com/downl... Sensors.pdf

Can you post the cal file?

If you look at the "tooth control table" you can see the progression of a cursor across the "A tooth" from 1-24 as you crank the car. This is the indicator of the Ne signal. There are 24 teeth on the wheel, and one rotation of the CPS indicates two rotations of the crank for one full combustion cycle.

If you arent seeing this cursor progress as you crank the motor, your NE signal is not being understood or is interrupted by the AEM. Either the Ne sensor is bad (not likely), the wiring is incorrect, or the settings are wrong on the AEM.

I dont know of any indication that the AEM puts out that the G1 or 2 signals are working other than the stat sync.

So here's my point - It is unlikely that the CPS is, as a whole, bad. It consists of a total of THREE sensors. Ne, G1 and G2. Since you only need one of the G sensors to get the car to run with the CPS, the only reason you would need to order a new CPS is if either the Ne signal sensor stopped working or BOTH of the G sensors werent working.

I experienced the same problems that you guys are going through. You will get the bug worked out and it will fire up.

Another thing to consider is that the 2JZGE G signals utilize the same pin to ground both G1 and G2 while the 2JZGTE uses two different pins to ground the G1 and G2 signals.

Both G signal grounds in the CPS bridge to the same wire. This might be causing some type of signal interference that the AEM doesnt understand.

Just look at the TSRM wiring diagram and the differences between the GTE and GE harnesses.

 

[p5150]

gixxer750ms: you can remove the second G sensor from the CPS to help reduce noise in the system.

Also, before you do getting running...

READ THIS.

http://www.supraforums.com/forum/sho...d.php?t=534874

If you are using the 1101 Cal file, change the ignition phasing #1 to 21.53 from the 22 it is set at now.

kings_blend: With the distributor hooked up we are getting a signal from the crank but it dosnt look like theres a signal from the cam sensor on the AEM if it matters. One thing we noticed is that we have pins 52b 53b and 54b connected on the AEM going to the ignitor. The car will start SOMETIMES but its really hard to do and when its running it missfires really bad. Could it have something to do with the wiring of those 3 pins from the AEM to the ignitor? I copied as much of the TT cal as I could to test but still no progress. No matter what I change it runs about the same.

Another thing is trying to set the timing with the timing light. We are hooking up the timing light to the signal wire of the first coil, but the reading is not very accurate. We tried using a jumper wire from the coil to the spark plug but the timing light does not get a signal that way, which I think is kind of weird...

At this point we are running out of ideas...

adam8103: i dont have a place to host it, can you give me your e-mail i will send you the cal file.

to answer the timing question - I mentioned that the battery has to be FULLY charged to get a good baseline reading for setting your initial timing. If it is drained at all the timing will be off. I remember having about 1-2 minutes of solid crank time before I had to throw a charger on it again. Once the tune is set you wont have this problem but to get it close for initial tuning you really have to make sure you have a healthy charge.

I dont want to state the obvious either, but another helpful tip is to paint the FACE of the crankshaft pulley with a white stripe for the timing mark. Thats kind of basic so dont take it the wrong way - somebody told me the same thing and it saved me a lot of time.

Another thing - you do have the ignition outputs turned on, right?

http://forum.aempower.com/forum/inde...c,23422.0.html

As far as going to 52, 53, 54 vs 55, 56, 57 for the ignition outputs, it shouldnt matter. Last time I had the box open I remember the outputs being bridged together - hence the reason you are stuck with wasted spark. However, that was with my 1100 box. You SHOULD have three ignition outputs with the 1101 box, but I cannot say for certain because I havent opened it up myself.... I think that it states in the instructions that 53-57 arent used, but this is only true in the standard, plug and play setup. I believe that the 1101 box can run the three outputs....

The way I check my timing is with a CHEAP ASS basic timing light. I had an inductive timing light, but it would not pick up the signal from my C2DI to the COP. I have to place the spring/adapter type thing that the signal wire clips to in between the plug and the coil in order to get a good flash.

If your light has a dial on it ensure that you have it set at "0" advance. I also recommend the direct "at the plug" signal and not utilizing any of the signal wires off the ignitor. There is a valid reason why but I dont have it on hand right now....

coil 1, 2, 3, 6, 7, 8 should be on: Options -> Coil

Also, make sure that the knock control isnt on or that the settings arent ridiculous.

 

[p5150]

adam8103: for the battery mather we had my other car running with jumping cables for the process... and while we were able to start the 2jz the engine was missfireing and we took a look at the timing when it was running and the timing was kind of dancing.... it was not stable at all. showing ten degree then loosing it then ten again then loosing it etc etc. we think that if we would get this timing fine the car would run properly but we tried many things and it was doing the same over and over.

on the cal i sent you 6, 7 and 8 are OFF but it was just something we tried yesterday night when we wanted to try something else... but we did tried it on..

odyownage: This is just SICKENING...lol

motorheaddown: Make sure the base ignition map has constant timing over your idle load and RPM ranges. Additionally, Ign vs Idle Target table must be zero'd out when checking timing at idle. It's under advanced idle.

Most cals have positive timing below idle target and negative timing above. It's much faster to compensate for engine RPMS using timing than the IACV.

-scott

The first thing I noticed about your cal file is that the spark teeth are set at "4". Because there are 24 teeth on the CPS, and you are firing the spark every rotation of the crank (wasted spark) you need to set the spark teeth at "12"

You should also be using ONE G sensor on the CPS and not sharing the grounds between the two.

scott - I just looked at his cal file and it is not zeroed out like you recommend.

 

[p5150]

adam8103: It is because the stock distributor was on it to get the cam and crank signal. we switched to the mk3 cps now and i rewired as you wrote and we got the sync signal now but my battery is dead and we cant jump it to another car today... tomorrow is going to be the next try. There is some progress, hopefully we wont have missfires like we had with the stock distributor as a sensor...

Cool - glad to hear about the progress.

gixxer750ms: I think everyone goes through having a hard time getting it to start the first time...

Make sure you change the first number in ignition phasing to 21.53 too.

Also, like stated above, change spark teeth to 12. My car runs on 4 pretty well in vac, but runs like shit in boost... so it would probably start on 4... May not though every car is different.

kings_blend: Okay so we have made some more progress. We are able to get stat sync to come on with the mk3 cps. The problem now is that we have no tach signal on the AEM. Without a tach signal the AEM will not fire the coils. SO back to square one. After checking the AEM pinout of the ecu we noticed there is no tach input or output. How does the AEM determine the tach signal? With the stock distributor in place the tach worked fine, but it missfired like crazy, so we dont wanna go back to that. Our goal is to have the car running with the mk3 cps anyway.

here is how we hooked up the CPS to get the all signals to work:

pin 6b or 7b it seems to make no difference; G- (black for sc300, white on cps)
pin 27b; Ne (blue for sc300, red on cps)
pin 26b; G1 (red on sc300, yellow on cps)
pin 25b; G2 (yellow on sc300, green on cps)

when you say that you have no tach signal on the AEM, are you saying that in the parameters that there is absolutely NO readout for engine RPM or are you saying that the AEM is not driving your tachometer?

If you are getting a stat sync you should be getting a tach readout on the parameters....

The AEM determines the tach signal itself with the CPS. It also outputs a signal that can drive the tach. I have my AEM driving my tach through pin 16A also known as the LS7 output. Keep in mind that I have a 88 MKIII and a 1100 box; YMMV.

I think that the reason that you may be having some problems with the tach is not related to the AEM. Im just going off of the wiring diagram for the 95 Supra, but the 2jzge tach signal is taken from the GE ignitor. See pg 65 of the EWD.

On the GTE, the signal is taken from where I have wired mine - Pin 16A. I think your box also uses that pin for an LS7 output for the AC. You should be able to tap into it to run your tach.

Since you changed the ignitor and ecu you probably either arent getting any signal to the tach or it is in the wrong format...

kings_blend: Yes I am talking about the parameter for RPM in AEMPro. The tach in the car dosnt work either but thats the least of your problems. Stat sync is turning on, but there is no rpm signal. Yes I said that right. With the stock dizzy the rpm signal was fine, with the mk3 cps there is no rpm signal.

Yes I noticed the signal comes from the ignitor. Adam is running TT coils with the TT ignitor, and from what he showed me, he has it wired correctly. My quesion is, how does the AEM receive a signal from the ignitor is it only has the 6 coil wires coming from the ECU. I noticed theres a tach wire on the ignitor, but this is an input for tach on the ignitor itself, I dont see where it can go to the ecu for tach input? Sorry for all the confusion. This is why Im skipping the ignitor on my setup and going with ls1 coils They worked awesome on my last setup!

adam8103: I am pretty sure that the tack from the ignitor is going to the cluster only there was no wires coming to the AEM from the ignitor for the tack signal. The cluster did not work since i installed my ignitor and coils, but when i was using the stock dizzy for sensor purpous only, we were getting the rpm signal, so i believe that the signal is coming from there, but i wonder from which wire in the cps it is suppose to be coming from and where i should have it pinned. it is the reason why i wrote the pin out of the cps in kings_blend post.

 

[p5150]

Interesting -

I dont think that the AEM receives a signal from the ignitor at all. In the stock config, the IGF signal is sent back from the ignitor to the stock ECU on pin 58, but the AEM doesnt use this signal. I went through this when I was trying to wire the C2DI directly to the AEM without an ignitor. AEM was clear that this is not a required signal.

Also, I am wondering how you have both G signals still wired up. Is it still wired up like this?

Q

uote:
here is how we hooked up the CPS to get the all signals to work:

pin 6b or 7b it seems to make no difference; G- (black for sc300, white on cps)


pin 27b; Ne (blue for sc300, red on cps)
pin 26b; G1 (red on sc300, yellow on cps)
pin 25b; G2 (yellow on sc300, green on cps)

The Ne and G grounds should be different. Like I said before, you dont need both G signals to get it to work. The way you have it wired up, you are missing the ground for Ne, which is the crankshaft position signal. Additionally, the electrically shielded cable on the GE harness only has four wires in it. It should be wired differently than you have it. I think your RPM problem is related to your wiring.

6b - G ground
7b - Ne ground
26b - G1 input
27b - Ne input

Ditch the G2 signal input because you dont need it and unless you run another shielded wire from the CPS you will have signal problems.

To get your tach signal working, you could take the wire that runs to pin 58 on the AEM, cut it, and tie it in to the LS7 output on pin 16A. I know that it is labeled as "climate control", but there is a tach signal embedded into it too. Dont disconnect it, just tie into it. Then, where the wire comes out of the other end of the harness where it would have connected to the ignitor, just connect it to the wire going to the Tach in the dash. Since both of those wires terminate in the same location in the engine bay this should make it pretty easy.

When you adjust the tach output in Options -> Full List, scroll down to Tacho to adjust the output for your Lexus. Im not sure what the settings are for your tach but the best place to look is probably the AEM forum. Be sure to look at the oldest posts first. F it - I found a link for you.

http://forum.aempower.com/forum/inde...c,1086.15.html
According to Sherman Daley on the AEM forum, the LS7 output is:

Quote:
It's used by the A/C to verify that the compressor is spinning at the same speed as the engine. If it sees a delta (not sure what the range is) it flashes the a/c dash light and disengages the compressor clutch. At least that's what is does in the SC300 - been dere, done dat

 

[p5150]

adam8103: There is probably something i am missing here; if i only have 4 wire out from the cps, G-, G1, G2 and NE, which one is the ground for NE? i can use the G2 wire to do that but where am i suppose to connect it on the cps if only 3 wire are being used by aem G-, G1, NE, There is no NE ground on the cps and using G2 from the cps into 7B for NE ground sounds kind incorrect? i might be wrong or not understanding at all

thanks for the support you guys are giving me!

motorheaddown: PLEASE check manuals here...

Speed sensors used for the cam and crank signals are variable reluctance; basically, they're simple AC generators: http://www.autoshop101.com/forms/h36.pdf (page 2) There are no independent grounds for NE, G1, and G2 - only a single ground reference. Consequently, you shouldn't have to do any extra wiring except matching the correct signals on the MK3 CPS with the MKIV distributor: http://mkiv.com/manual/1995_electric...95elec_086.JPG Yes, G2 is ignored by the AEM; so, it's up to you to remove it, if you want to.

Before installing the MK3 CPS, I would get everything running with the MKIV distributor base; forget about the dash tach for now. If RPMs aren't rolling in AEMPro, it won't matter how you configure the AEM tach output; something is still wrong. Are RPMs working in AEMPro with the distributor? If so, you still have issues with the MK3 CPS.

I'm not sure about the MKIV NA tach, but a tach adapter is required for the sc300. If they're the same, you'll need to configure the tach output on the AEM to drive a tach adapter (MSD8920) for the dash tach to work. If memory serves (a big "if" here), LS10 can be configured for various tach multiplier outputs. The output from the tach adapter is then used to drive the dash tachometer.

Your best course of action is to review the material above and convince yourself the advice is sound (not just mine, but anybody's advice).

-scott

Ok - take the cover off of the CPS and look at the sensors. There are a total of 3 sensors and each sensor has two wires coming out of it.

Now it has been two years since I did this, so I dont remember how the 6 wires conjoin together in between the connector on the CPS for the harness and the sensor output. What I did was peel back the tape/ insulation / etc and cut that rubber grommet out. You cant see the wiring until you pull all of this crap off.

Then, I modified the CPS wiring to have 4 distinct outputs. Ne +/- and G +/-. All 4 wires that come out of the CPS now have their own distinct function and do not share the outputs of any other sensor. They run directly via shielded cable through the harness to the AEM. One of the G sensors is compeletely disconnected, but I left enough wire on it so that I could reconnect it later if the other G sensor shit the bed. After all of the wire connecting was complete, I sealed the wire hole with some RTV to keep the junk out.

I soldered and EXTENSIVELY shrink wrapped all of the connections. I wouldnt rely on electrical tape here.

You can take this advice for what its worth, but Im up and running with my CPS, and this is what I did.

 

[p5150]

I agree with Scott in the fact that I think your RPM issue has to do with the way your CPS is wired. I think you are very close to getting this running the way you want to. You could go back to the distributor and tune it but you will be right back here trying to get the CPS to work again if you dont figure it out now.

My setup is a little bit different than yours on some fronts but the system is basically the same. Basically, I rebuilt my entire wire harness and assigned the pins accordingly. In doing so, I had to replicate the function of most circuits according to how they work on a MKIV GTE Supra, which is what this box (1100) is designed to run.

The calibration for the 1101 box is designed to run on the distributor, but the board is basically the same as the 1100 box.

What I am getting at is that I replicated the circuitry of the MKIV GTE harness for the CPS outputs except for the inclusion of the second G sensor. Look on page 61 of the EWD and you can see how the sensors all have separate circuits.

After this is done it is just a matter of placing the right settings in the EMS and synching the timing.