How much boost/power on fresh bottom end??

rot 90na-t

slowest project ever
Apr 13, 2006
259
0
0
Westminster, CO
Considering rebuilding my na as a reliable daily, but possibly boostin it later once finances are more suitable for such a project.. (get out of college)
If i arp and mhg my NA, what kind of boost/power could i safely run with supporting fuel, A/F control, etc?


-chris
 

Supracentral

Active Member
Mar 30, 2005
10,542
10
36
rot 90na-t said:
Considering rebuilding my na as a reliable daily, but possibly boostin it later once finances are more suitable for such a project.. (get out of college)
If i arp and mhg my NA, what kind of boost/power could i safely run with supporting fuel, A/F control, etc?

Sigh... Here we go again.

Boost and or horsepower don't kill engines.

The compressive load that you'd generate @ 40 psi wouldn't hurt factory rods nor would it hurt the factory pistons.

The major enemies of the factory pistons are detonation & heat. Find the ways to defeat both and you can run a virtually unlimited amount of boost on those pistons. The simple truth is you can never 100% defeat both, so forged pistons are always a good idea for any motor that is not stock.

As for rods, it's the tensile load at high revs that kills rods.

Read this post:

http://www.supramania.com/forums/showpost.php?p=180719&postcount=18

After you get that digested let me know what else you need to know.
 

rot 90na-t

slowest project ever
Apr 13, 2006
259
0
0
Westminster, CO
Supracentral said:
Sigh... Here we go again.

Boost and or horsepower don't kill engines.

The compressive load that you'd generate @ 40 psi wouldn't hurt factory rods nor would it hurt the factory pistons.

The major enemies of the factory pistons are detonation & heat. Find the ways to defeat both and you can run a virtually unlimited amount of boost on those pistons. The simple truth is you can never 100% defeat both, so forged pistons are always a good idea for any motor that is not stock.

As for rods, it's the tensile load at high revs that kills rods.

Read this post:

http://www.supramania.com/forums/showpost.php?p=180719&postcount=18

After you get that digested let me know what else you need to know.

I appreciate the the adrenaline shot of mechanical know how, very informative..!
However my predicament stands. My thoughts are to rebuild with all factory NA internals, add a MHG, ARP studs, and leave it. The car would be driven as a daily driver until i can afford to turbo it. Unfortunately i cannot afford forged pistons at the moment so im simply wondering the limits of the said setup with boost.. I guess whats throwing me off is the higher compression ratio of the non turbo motor..
 

starscream5000

Senior VIP Member
Aug 23, 2006
6,359
0
36
Hot and Humid, KY
Put turbo pistons in it and deal with the loss in power for the time being. There wouldn't be any adverse effects of running turbo pistons without the turbo, except loss of power would there?
 

Supracentral

Active Member
Mar 30, 2005
10,542
10
36
rot 90na-t said:
My thoughts are to rebuild with all factory NA internals, add a MHG, ARP studs, and leave it. The car would be driven as a daily driver until i can afford to turbo it. Unfortunately i cannot afford forged pistons at the moment so im simply wondering the limits of the said setup with boost. I guess whats throwing me off is the higher compression ratio of the non turbo motor..

OK, we'll back into it from here. Since you can't afford forged pistons, and the compression ratio is high. Applying boost really raises the risk of detonation. Since we are dealing with hypereutectic pistons, detonation is your biggest enemy. The factory hypereutectic pistons are very hard, and are therefore brittle. They have proven time and time again to be unforgiving when subjected to detonation. Addtitionally, your N/A motor lacks the oil sprayers found in the 7M-GTE and 2JZ-GTE. These sprayers spray oil on the bottom of the pistons, providing additonal cooling which helps reduce the chance of detonation.

I'd say you probably can't safely run more than 3 or 4 psi of boost on those factory pistons if reliability is your primary goal. Anything past that and you are really flirting with danger. You COULD run more, and many people do, but you are pushing it.

However I would like to point out that if the cost of forged pistons is out of the question, you probably shouldn't be messing with modifiying a car. Modified engines break, that's a simple fact. The less time and experience the owner/builder/tuner has, the more likely it is that an engine failure will occur.

I guess what I'm getting at is if the few hundred dollars for forged pistions is too much, the considerably higher cost of a broken motor will be as well.

I'm not trying to discourage you. I'm simply making a statement that should be made a lot more frequently in this business/hobby. Speed is not cheap. Anyone who says any differently is selling something.

starscream5000 said:
Put turbo pistons in it and deal with the loss in power for the time being. There wouldn't be any adverse effects of running turbo pistons without the turbo, except loss of power would there?

No, but that would be a REALLY lame car. A 3500 + lb car with an 8.5:1 3.0 liter N/A would be a real pig to drive. I'm talking mid 80's Volvo kind of pig...:(
 

Kai

That Limey Bastard
Staff member
Supracentral said:
No, but that would be a REALLY lame car. A 3500 + lb car with an 8.5:1 3.0 liter N/A would be a real pig to drive. I'm talking mid 80's Volvo kind of pig...:(

The moment you said that, the word DeLorean popped into my fron :biglaugh:

Getting back on topic - you can just pick up a cheap turbo motor from someone thats done a 1JZ swap. Spending loads of time and effort on an N/A that you're eventually going to turbo - you might as well put the outlay into buying a turbo engine.
 

Ma70.Ent

Supramania Contributor
Feb 26, 2006
1,871
1
0
NJ
EDIT: Shortened the LONG post :)


If you go GTE electronics NA-T, retard the timing by 2 degrees and you are able to run around 14 PSI. My brother runs that much (or 15, I forget) and he's been fine for years now.
 

rot 90na-t

slowest project ever
Apr 13, 2006
259
0
0
Westminster, CO
Kai said:
The moment you said that, the word DeLorean popped into my fron :biglaugh:

Getting back on topic - you can just pick up a cheap turbo motor from someone thats done a 1JZ swap. Spending loads of time and effort on an N/A that you're eventually going to turbo - you might as well put the outlay into buying a turbo engine.

an option ive considered... however that would be a used engine, and could potentially need a rebuild anyway..
 

rot 90na-t

slowest project ever
Apr 13, 2006
259
0
0
Westminster, CO
Supracentral said:
OK, we'll back into it from here. Since you can't afford forged pistons, and the compression ratio is high. Applying boost really raises the risk of detonation. Since we are dealing with hypereutectic pistons, detonation is your biggest enemy. The factory hypereutectic pistons are very hard, and are therefore brittle. They have proven time and time again to be unforgiving when subjected to detonation. Addtitionally, your N/A motor lacks the oil sprayers found in the 7M-GTE and 2JZ-GTE. These sprayers spray oil on the bottom of the pistons, providing additonal cooling which helps reduce the chance of detonation.

I'd say you probably can't safely run more than 3 or 4 psi of boost on those factory pistons if reliability is your primary goal. Anything past that and you are really flirting with danger. You COULD run more, and many people do, but you are pushing it.

However I would like to point out that if the cost of forged pistons is out of the question, you probably shouldn't be messing with modifiying a car. Modified engines break, that's a simple fact. The less time and experience the owner/builder/tuner has, the more likely it is that an engine failure will occur.

I guess what I'm getting at is if the few hundred dollars for forged pistions is too much, the considerably higher cost of a broken motor will be as well.

I'm not trying to discourage you. I'm simply making a statement that should be made a lot more frequently in this business/hobby. Speed is not cheap. Anyone who says any differently is selling something.



No, but that would be a REALLY lame car. A 3500 + lb car with an 8.5:1 3.0 liter N/A would be a real pig to drive. I'm talking mid 80's Volvo kind of pig...:(

Point taken... invest now, save later. common sense.