Car failed MOT :(

[Kai]

Just had an update from Ed - he took the Car for an MOT, it failed on three things:

Emissions too high for pre-'92 spec (3.5% CO level)
Handbrake Shoes
Front Brakes unbalanced - pulls to one side

Now, with regards to the handbrake, well thats a simple fix. The emissions though - i am surprised at. It's just had a new HG on it though, and the timing is set to stock 10' at the moment. Ed says it probably needs a good thrashing - so i'll leave that to him, but i am a little concerned about the brakes. Could it be just a stuck caliper or something more serious and in-depth?

Was really hoping to get the car back this weekend - but thats not going to happen now *sniff*

 

[Setheroo]

Take off the wheel and check out your rotors. If your rotors have formed a lip on the outside of them - that could be why its pulling to one side. Hard to explain how - but I have seen that happen on some vehicles - if thats the case just get your rotors turned, or buy new ones.


Is it pulling to one side only under braking, or all the time?

 

[Kai]

The car is with ed over 40 miles away, so i cant check, although he's a guru as far as this is concerned, i'm asking for the sake of trying to keep calm and hope to god its not going to cost me a shitload :/

The brakes that were on there have about 2000 miles on them by now - standard toyota jobbies, not been used all that heavily, just 'around town' kinda use. Although the discs that came off had a sizeable lip on them...

I think ed said it was pulling to one side under braking just slightly. It used to drift left as well, but that was a suspension issue that was sorted with a whole new front suspension set.

 

[Setheroo]

If the rotors that came off had a lip on them, and the same brake pads and calipers were used on the newer rotors - the lip WILL come back with some time. Just around town use is the worst on your brakes. Brakes should be pampered for the first 500 - 1000 miles... it all depends on how much they are actually used in those miles - but you get the idea.

But if you had a full brake job - I don't see why you would be getting a pull under braking. My first guess would be that a piston inside of the caliper is getting more pressure than the opposing side. (not sure what kind of calipers you have on your ride, and I am not sure what type of calipers come stock on a Supra).

If one side is receiving more pressure, then that side gets more braking - and then it will definetely pull to that side. The reason why one side would get more pressure than the other is simple, the piston inside of the caliper can become cracked - and that results in pressure loss. (actually had that one happen to me while doing a brake job, it was really cold outside and while squeezing the caliper with a C-Clamp the piston just cracked... that was no fun).

 

[Kai]

Pads were changed at the same time, although the calipers are the originals as far as i know, although the whole front suspension change might have required that the calipers be carried over from the spares car as well. The calipers are stock items - the car is pretty much a standard UKDM 7M-GE, ie the same as yours, except a) RHD b) no catalytic converter c) no EGR.

 

[foreverpsycotic]

the car has no cat and no EGR and its supposed to pass emissions??
thats kinda confusing.

 

[Kai]

Well, no cars for the UK or EU markets had to have Catalytic converters until after August 1992.

UK and EU emissions levels aren't as stringent as the US levels, for example, until July 1986, a CO level of 4.5% was the limit, from then til 1992 the limit was 3.5% and after that, it was 0.5% limit.

HC limit was 1200ppm from 1975 until 1992, and afterwards, depending on the manufacturers limits.

Those are the only things tested as far as emissions go.

 

[jetjock]

A good thrashing won't help. It's running rich. CO emission should be lower than that even without a cat if the engine is running at stoichiometric. Check the O2 and Vf signals. Got any other emissions numbers?

 

[Kai]

Hm - good point, lemme see if ed can PM me the emissions numbers from the ticket.

They're checked at idle, and fast idle. If it fails at idle, its not a problem, but if it fails at fast idle, then it fails. By Vf, do you mean the AFM?

*ninja edit*

Also, it might have passed the CO level, but failed the HC level, or vice versa. Won't know for sure until Ed gets back to me with numbers

 

[jetjock]

The old two speed idle test eh? People in Cali should be so lucky. (Actually, those in non-enhanced areas are).

By Vf I mean measure the Vf terminal in the diagnostic block to ground with a voltmeter. Do it at 2500 rpm, both with and without the T terminal jumpered to ground and report back what you find.

HC is another matter entirely. Post the numbers, all of them.

 

[Kai]

Heh - emissions here were never a big deal, we didnt have an overabundance of V block engines hanging around - most cars are 4-cylinder based, with the V blocks for things like Jaguars, Jensens, Bristols, TVR's etc

Plus, we don't do as much mileage as you might do - average is 8000 to 12,000 miles a year!

I'm going to wait for a response from ed re the numbers, which will hopefully be in the next 4 hours, before i go to sleep

 

[jetjock]

No mate, it's because your crappy weather scrubs it all out of the air

What we're looking for here is to see if your O2 sensor is cross counting and what the ECU is doing. Direct measurement of the O2 sensor signal would be better but I'll settle for Vf. This is all for high CO. If you have high HC you'll probably have to go in another direction.

 

[Kai]

Failing emissions wouldn't have something to do with the fact that the HG was just replaced, could it? Spark plugs 7 i think the dizzy were also replaced. I'd have normally thought that would have improved emissions, although i'm just throwing it out there.

Also - do ALL supra's have an O2 sensor? Is it a USDM thing only? Asking mainly because we dont have any of the restrictions you have, we might not have one!

 

[jetjock]

Dizzy? Have you an N/A?

Replacing a head gasket could very well effect emisisons. Not so much because of the head gasket itself but because the exhaust and induction systems were removed. If they weren't put back on right it'd mess things up, especially if you do have a lambda sensor.

I dunno for sure but check. I'm guessing it has one. You're right though, the O2 sensor's sole job in life is to serve the catalyst. However I would think UK cars would have a lambda sensor to still minimize emissions and for the other benefits they provide. That said even a USDM 7M should put out less than 3.5% CO with it's sensor disconnected because the ECU is more than capable of holding the mixture tight enough if everything else is working correctly. I know my engine does.

One thing that is different over there: If your car does have a sensor you won't get a check engine light if it fails. It should still set a code though so you might want to check. It's good practice to check for codes whenever the engine does something weird.

 

[ViR2]

I dont know about UKDM but all 7m's in rest of europe had Cat's

And yes, we do have O2 (i mean EU market). supras are all the same, except egr, bumper license plates and some other minor diff's

 

[Kai]

Dizzy? Have you an N/A?

Replacing a head gasket could very well effect emisisons. Not so much because of the head gasket itself but because the exhaust and induction systems were removed. If they weren't put back on right it'd mess things up, especially if you do have a lambda sensor.

I dunno for sure but check. I'm guessing it has one. You're right though, the O2 sensor's sole job in life is to serve the catalyst. However I would think UK cars would have a lambda sensor to still minimize emissions and for the other benefits they provide. That said even a USDM 7M should put out less than 3.5% CO with it's sensor disconnected because the ECU is more than capable of holding the mixture tight enough if everything else is working correctly. I know my engine does.

One thing that is different over there: If your car does have a sensor you won't get a check engine light if it fails. It should still set a code though so you might want to check. It's good practice to check for codes whenever the engine does something weird.

Yep - read up a few posts - UKDM 7M-GE

I've asked around on the UK forum and apparrently, theres no O2 sensor on non-turbo's, seeing as none of the N/A's ever had a cat fitted. ECU was also apparrently 'different' in its provisions for such emissions equipment. Although i cant verify that other than through what people have said. You could be right on the gasket front though...Ed's sorting it out, but i'd still ike to know what it is that caused it in the first place.

ViR2 - Strange, cause France didn't have Catalysed Models either until the late '91 facelifts, either way, you'll pass the Controle Technique without a cat fitted...

 

[OneJoeZee]

who is ed

 

[Kai]

who is ed

Ed, he look slike jesus and works miracles like him too, but only on supra's

Very nice guy, knows EVERYTHING about Supra's, specialises in the Mk3's, and has almost complete encyclopaedic knowledge of all things Supra. The man is a walking TSRM.

 

[jetjock]

Well, if it has no lambda sensor he'll have to figure out where the problem is based on which gas it failed on. High HC and CO don't always go together. In fact they usually don't. I hope he has a NDIR gas analyzer, hopefully a 4 gas, otherwise he'll be feeling around in the dark. I know I'd be lost without my 5 gas. Then again if he's Jesus he won't need one

 

[Kai]

I think he has access to one, either his own, or the one at the Lexus/Toyota dealership about a mile down the road from him. He has a degree in thermodynamics or somesuch, which is why he does all the porting and polishing for all the Mk3 owners in the UK....and as for his jesus like abilities, well, when the hose at the back of the block blew and vented all my coolant to atmo, no-one knew what had happened (and i couldn't see it), but he came down on his bike, got the tools out of the pannier, and had it fixed in 5 minutes. At one point he asked me to go get him some water, and when i came back it was fixed and running again already. I swear when i was inside he downed tools, looked up, said something along the lines of 'a little help please?', a shaft of light came down, fixed the car, and then disappeared in time so i wouldn't know about it

When he first turned up at my door though, he has jesus hair, jesus beard, he's the right height, weight, he *is* Jesus! :biglaugh: