Advancing / Retarding Timing....

born2drv

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Nov 1, 2005
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OK I'm new at this so don't be too harsh on me ;)

From what I gather ---

When you advance timing, you're basically forcing more compressive forces on your engine internals and bringing them closer to their peak cylinder pressure. But the more you do this, the more chances your engine goes BOOM

When you retard timing, it's just the opposite, making less pressure/power, correct?

Also, what is the difference in adjusting timing mechanically vs. electronically? Like getting Adjustable Cam Gears Vs. Adjustable Engine Timing Software (piggyback or standalone system). Would you need just one or the other or are both recommended, and if so, why?

One more questions, when adjusting timing, the usual rule is to set it just under knocking at idle, and retard it -2 to 3 degrees for safety, correct?


Sorry if these are basic questions, Thanks. :)
 

born2drv

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Just another question too.... Does running too rich or lean cause the computer to advance/retard timing? And if so, how would you prevent that from happening?
 

lagged

1991 1JZ
Mar 30, 2005
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on this car, that rule does not apply. you DO NOT set the timing in that manner. you set it the way the TSRM tells you to set it.
 

pimptrizkit

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Dec 22, 2005
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well i'll give it a shot..

timing has to do with when the fuel is ignited, before top dead center.. ie 12*btdc is the stock timming for the supra,

and since the fuel is being ignited while the piston is still aproaching tdc, it builds more cylinder pressure to force the piston back down, and burn the rest of the mixture.

if the timming is set to far before tdc,you will rune into spark knock, where the combustion process is building enough pressure to stop the fluid-movment of the piston before tdc.
 

born2drv

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thanks guys....

ok so what about cam gears vs. hardware/software to advance/retard timing..... which is better? are both recommended? ... and does the onbord computer affect timing based on how rich the car runs?
 

Tanya

Supramania Contributor
Aug 15, 2005
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OK there's gotta be someone out there that's got all the answers, wish it was me but no. I get the general jist of timing, but not enough to where I can explain everything in a very enlightening technical manner.

Don't know if it's wise on a boosted car, but advancing to 14/15 BTDC can increase hp and gas mileage (minimally of course, you're not going to see a 10hp or 10mpg gain, lol)

cam timing and ignition timing is pretty different...
ignition timing is when the #1 cylinder fires, obviously some degrees before top dead center on the compression stroke. retarding the timing can cause the air/fuel mixture to ignite too late causing poopy running conditions... same with advancing too far, it will ignite too soon and run like poop and also cause spark knock as mentioned in an earlier post.

now cam timing is a little more difficult, and something I'm not fully understanding yet, but can be beneficial if you know WTF you're doing. But for the basics, you always want the cams aligned to their timing marks at -top dead center- not 10BTDC or 12BTDC or whatever your timing specs call for.

Also, when advancing the timing, if your engine detects knock (assuming your knock sensor is there and working) it will retard the timing, causing poorer performance and mileage, which is why it's usually best to run a higher octane if you plan to advance to 15BTDC...

if anyone more knowledgable thinks my comments were incorrect, let me know and I'll delete myself, lol
 

figgie

Supramania Contributor
Mar 30, 2005
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ok this is going to be a doozie so bare with me!

timing, ignition events and all things ignition :)

This sounds easy on the surface but this is actually one of the most complicated subjects in the automotive world

First we need to get definitions of the different parts.

By the time you are done reading this, you will know exactly what timing is, dwell/ charge time/rise time, overcharging and problaby more than you could ever imagine and probably have a headache to boot :)


What is a winding/turn, primary winding and secondary winding in the ignition coil?

Winding/turn is the number of “loops” around the ferrite or air core inside the “ignition coil”. Like wrapping a string on a yo-yo, each time the string overlaps itself is considers one winding/turn. The primary winding is what influences the resistance of the coil to the igniter. The less windings/turns, the lower the resistance. This becomes crucial in trying to match a coil to particular application. Why? Get an ignition coils with a very low primary resistance and all you will have is a smoke show from most stock igniters as they try to put their output through almost a dead short (resistance wise).

But Figgie that doesn’t explain how I can get 20,000 volts out of the coils.


(Oversimplification ahead!!)

So we know that the primary coil is what is present to the igniter. That leaves the secondary winding the secondary winding is the same in essence as the primary winding except this is what connects to the spark plug. The difference though is in what happens between the two windings. For voltage to increase the secondary winding must have a higher amount of turns vs. the primary winding. This is what is known as turn ratio. So if hypothetically speaking you have one turn on the primary side and two turns on the secondary side then you have a turn ratio of two to one (2:1). So in this hypothetical coil if we were to apply 5 volts to the primary winding, we will see 10 volts at the secondary winding at a lower ampere. I will not get into the physics of it but ohms law and energy conservation theory play into it. I will let someone else explain that  So let go further

Say an MSD Blaster coil http://www.msdignition.com/coil_blaster_1_8200_8202_8223.htm

It shows a Primary resistance of .7 ohm
.
Turn ratio is what we are interested for the sake of this discussion. 100:1. Well, well, well, now we are starting to get a clearer picture. So with a 100:1 turn ratio, if we input 5v then we will have 500 volts on the secondary side. Hmm we are missing a bit of zeros aren’t we? Well at this stage you are right :) so how do we achieve 20,000+ volts?

Well now comes the fun part

The Ignition coils are nothing more than inductors (electronic world), choke coils radio transmission world), low pass filter (car audio world/speaker building world). Well inductors are like capacitors in which they can store energy. The rate at which they store this energy in the primary coil is the charge time/rise rate or as we know it in the automotive world, dwell time, which I will use here on out. Just like a capacitor it has a limit as to how much energy it can store. Go above the dwell time and it gains nothing but an over heated ignition coil. To little dwell time and you will not have enough energy (read misfire is highly likely).

What the hell does this have to do with ignition Figgie??

Well we haven’t put all the pieces together yet so patience 

Well once the ignitio coil reaches saturation the amperage soars (usually around 6.5amps to 10 amps @ 12 vdc on most typical ignition systems). Ok, so what you say? Well quit interrupting and pay attention you impatient students! Well now that we have all that energy flowing through the primary winding, let cut the power to it. Say what figgie? Yes cut the power to the primary winding. Now here is where the actually bump to 20,000+ volts begins  Since the coil has all this energy flowing through it. The stop of the energy actually causes the magnetic field that is produced by the primary winding to collapse. This collapse causes those 12v to jump to nearly 250v at that instance in time time. When those 250v go into the 100:1 turn ratio of the ignition coil. We have 25,000 volts popping out of the secondary winding, ready to jump the gap at the spark plug or kill you if you touch the secondary winding side 

This is of course an extremely simplified overview but you get the gist 


What is timing?

Timing is the term given for when the process to start the combustion happens in an internal combustion engine. Timing is based on a bunch of factors to include flame propagation, combustion chamber design etc. The ideal timing is not at 0 TDC as at that point the piston has ZERO leverage on the crank. The ideal time is somewhere around 12 degree after top dead center. So why do we start the timing event at 10 degree before top dead center? The answer is actually simple. The combustion process is not instantaneous. It actually takes time to initiate the flame front and go through the combustion chamber to ignite the entire mixture. By the time the highest cylinder pressure is achieved by the combustion process, it will be around 12 degree after top dead center  As RPM increases then we have to start the ignition process earlier in the stage. If we add more oxygen to the mix (higher boost) then we actually have to take away timing as the oxygen quickens the flame front. Advancing the timing might net you some power or it might not. If you advance the timing to much then you end up producing the peak cylinder pressure before the maximum leverage is applied to the crank. What this usually means if there is enough energy to move a 3400 lbs car. You best believe there is enough energy to chew threw rod bearings melt pistons or bend rods in a heart beat if the timing is to advance. If the timing is too retarded then you will be past the maximum leverage point for the crank (around 12 degree after top dead center) and then past the peak cylinder pressure, or in short lost power.

What I explained here is over simplified. There is a lot of science and physics involved with this that I did not mention but I tried to make it easy to understand ;)

-Figgie

:naughty:
 

born2drv

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Nov 1, 2005
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Hey Figgie, thanks alot I really appreciate it. So basically retarding the motor just makes it run retarded LOL , the real damage comes from advancing timing too much because the piston is too high up (with less leverage and a smaller angle of turn) which means much more stress on the crankshaft and less rotational forces being exerted but more shear forces on rods, etc, I think? That makes sense to me. The idea is to time it just right to get the maxium rotational force, not the maximum shear force which would occur at TDC or just near it.

Tanya I appreciate your help too, now I just need to learn about Cam Timing, why you'd want to adjust it, etc....

Thanks guys :)