a feasiable jim Crower inspired idea

[JZ_killa_t68]

so here it is, my big idea. Lately I've been doing a lot of searching/researching on how to better performance and fuel economy, I've looked at pretty much everything, all the way down to solar panels to try to give some extra amperage to power some weird type of electrolosis machine. anyrate to water methanol injection. I remebered the 6-stroke engine concept patented by Jim Crower ( http://www.damninteresting.com/?p=467 ), and realized that the same thing could pretty much be accomplished without having to re-design camshafts and that. My idea is to baiscally add 1 more injector per cylinder (would have to come up with like a "v" type splitter to run 2/cylinder, and mount a second stock fuel rail). anyrate, the second set of injectors would inject water into the cylinders, and would have to either be significantly smaller, or have a shorter amount of time on the cycle of the water injectors. I think that this could work. instead of having a 6 stroke engine, it would be like an 8 stroke, or a cracked out 4 stroke. anyrate, the key of my idea is the firing of the injectors. perhaps take the original signal to the 1 injector, and split it into two, but adding some sort of flip flop type of relay, so that it alternates injector, and since pretty much every even cyindered engine always has at least 2 pistons firing at the same time, that could also be alteranted, i.e., say 1&3 fire at the same time, will now 1 will fire gas, and 3 would fire good 'ole water. To me it would save quite a bit of gas, add some extra power, clean out the cylinders, and keep engine temps down by a grip-which could mean more runs at the track or whatever.

I dunno, maybe I've been sitting here inhaling too much methane here or something.

Josh

 

[Stanzaspeed]

thinking about all that makes my hair hurt... :icon_conf

 

[GotTurbos?]

12 injectors?

Too bad I dont know nearly enough to tell you if your idea would work or not

 

[JZ_killa_t68]

12 injectors?

Too bad I dont know nearly enough to tell you if your idea would work or not

damn, where'd you find that manifold at? that's pretty sick.

 

[johnathan1]

12 injectors?
Too bad I dont know nearly enough to tell you if your idea would work or not

:word8kn:

 

[GotTurbos?]

damn, where'd you find that manifold at? that's pretty sick.

its a full race manifold... for the 2j

Ron R. FTW though

Jon

 

[JZ_killa_t68]

its a full race manifold... for the 2j

Ron R. FTW though

Jon

nice. it's pretty wicked

 

[cjsupra90]

one problem, two cylinders dont fire at the same time well they do, but not both on compression. One is firing at the top of the compression stroke while the other is on exhaust. This why the spark set up is called "waste spark"

 

[whenmunkysfly]

why would you need the spark to work on water???????? great idea btw but i think the engine would run too rough that prob. why he made it six stroke. <edit> anyone in the northwest area want to actualy try this on an old engine or something i'd be very interested in doing this project. i got a vw 4cyl. sitting around.

 

[whenmunkysfly]

i'm thinking all you would really need is to get the cams to open 2/3 as often (easy task of changing cam gear size.) and direct injecting the water.

 

[cjsupra90]

Its not that you need a spark at all, its that it has to be a 6 stroke design.

I made the comment about the spark cause of what was stated about two cylinders firing at the same time. I was not sure if he understood that only one fires and the other is on exh. which also has an extra spark.

It takes 720deg. of rotation for all cylinders to fire once. Or could also be stated 720 deg. of rotation for the engine to move its complete displacment. This is why Rotary motors make so much HP for the small given size. A Rotary moves its complete displacement in one revolution instead of two like a piston engine, so therefore a 13B (1.3L) rotary should is really equal to a 2.6L piston engine.

Now that I have gone totally off topic lets get back on......

I think that it could be possible (well actually is possible as he has done it), but would requier a very strange cam setup and gear change. And yes direct injection would deffinitly be needed for the water.

By just changing the cam speed by changing the gears, you would just effectively screw up the valve to piston timing. There has to be a cam profile change.

lets see here, you would need
Intake stroke
compression stroke
Power stroke
Exhaust stroke
power stroke
Exhaust stroke
Start over

Ok, well its late and my mind is drawing a blank at the moment except that if we had computer controlled phneumatic valves like a F1 engine then it would be a breeze to acheive.

 

[Racefiend]

As Chris stated, the strokes on the Crower engine is
1 intake
2 compression
3 power
4 exhaust
5 steam power
6 steam exhaust

The way the Crower engine works is the water is injected after the 4th stroke. There is no valve opening, just the water injected into the cylinder. It expands during the 5th stroke (power stroke), and an exhaust valve opens to expell it on the 6th.

Using a normal engine like you describe, the 5th stroke would be an intake stroke. The intake valve would open and the water would come in with air. This means that any water which might steam and expand, which is supposed to exert energy against the piston, is going to escape out of the open intake valve. Not to mention, with the air coming in, it would cool the combustion chamber, which would hinder steam production, if not totally eradicate it. Then you would have strokes 6, 7, and 8 basically dead strokes where nothing would happen. In fact, on the 6th stoke (compression) you may lock your engine if enough water was injected.

Wouldn't work IMO.

Christian

 

[JZ_killa_t68]

As Chris stated, the strokes on the Crower engine is
1 intake
2 compression
3 power
4 exhaust
5 steam power
6 steam exhaust

The way the Crower engine works is the water is injected after the 4th stroke. There is no valve opening, just the water injected into the cylinder. It expands during the 5th stroke (power stroke), and an exhaust valve opens to expell it on the 6th.

Using a normal engine like you describe, the 5th stroke would be an intake stroke. The intake valve would open and the water would come in with air. This means that any water which might steam and expand, which is supposed to exert energy against the piston, is going to escape out of the open intake valve. Not to mention, with the air coming in, it would cool the combustion chamber, which would hinder steam production, if not totally eradicate it. Then you would have strokes 6, 7, and 8 basically dead strokes where nothing would happen. In fact, on the 6th stoke (compression) you may lock your engine if enough water was injected.

Wouldn't work IMO.

Christian

actually, the way I was seeing it was

1 intake
2 compression
3 power
4 exhaust
5 intake
6 compression
7 steam power
8 exhaust

it would still operate like a 4 stroke, except that with a flip-flop relay, it would be able to toggle from fuel injector to water injector so you'd fire fuel every other power stroke.

 

[Racefiend]

actually, the way I was seeing it was

1 intake
2 compression
3 power
4 exhaust
5 intake
6 compression
7 steam power
8 exhaust

it would still operate like a 4 stroke, except that with a flip-flop relay, it would be able to toggle from fuel injector to water injector so you'd fire fuel every other power stroke.

And how would you heat it to get steam? The Crower engine uses the principle that the previous exhaust stroke contains enough heat to vaporize the water. Your intake stroke would cool the chamber down, and you'd need some external source of heat to vaporize the water.

 

[JZ_killa_t68]

And how would you heat it to get steam? The Crower engine uses the principle that the previous exhaust stroke contains enough heat to vaporize the water. Your intake stroke would cool the chamber down, and you'd need some external source of heat to vaporize the water.

I don't think that it'd cool it down that much-quick experiment to try: after running shut off your car, take some compressed air and blow it onto your exhaust manifold for...lets say 10 seconds-that should way more than enough time, since compressed air was like a million time cooler than your intake air temp. than after that, take a spray bottle and pump 1 shot onto where you just blew the air at. Tell me what happens.

remember your exhaust temps range from like 600-1000 (depending on what you drive, how you drive ect,). now say you draw in .5 seconds of cool air-80 degrees. if we were in a perfect world and that 80 degree intake air cooled the clyinder by 80 degrees and say the cylinder temp was at 600 degrees, that leaves us with 520 degrees, which should be enough to flash to steam-until we take in account for compression-which probably will make this afu, as the boiling point of water would be increased by a grip with compression-especially from a turbocharged motor. maybe I'll get a wild hair up my ass someday when I get a place that has a garage so I can have a tinker vehicle. Maybe I'll try it to an old NA or something. who knows.

*under pressure the boiling point of water *estimated* at about 470 degrees F, that is if your compression ratio is 20:1; which is about average for a NA diesel, or a turbo-charged car. I guess this would only work if you're deep into the throttle pullin 800-1000 degree egt's, and would probably have to bypass the coolant. crowers design i'm sure incorporates this into the whole swing of things.

 

[NashMan]

ummmmm try it and tell us how it goes


cause that is like maken battel ship in your grauge

 

[whenmunkysfly]

ok i drew alot of pictures today and figured out you would have to have two lobes on the exhaust cam and the lobes would have to be sharper since your slowing the cam down(less deration). also you would have cams moving at 2/3 the normal speed(maybe making higher revs easier to obtain). ignition timing would have to be changed as well as injection timing. all of this would work best on a six cylinder engine that way for every stroke you are getting a power stroke as well as a steam power stroke(a four cylinder would have two just steam strokes meaning i think less hp during those strokes.)