ProEFI Interest?

[John Reed]

Hey Guys,

I have been thinking about doing a PNP for the Mk3, using the new ProEFI ECU. There are two levels of this ECU, and I was going to use the smaller unit as it would be pretty cost effective solution for the budget minded.

The basics:

Injectors would be batch fire still, same as the 7M is stock (and with the AEM).

Ignition you would have to replace the stock stuff (which I don't like anyway). You will however, with this unit, be able to run 6 coil direct fire ignition (you could use a Mk4 igniter and coils with no additional hardware).

It will have additional sensor inputs for fuel pressure, oil pressure, etc and can take corrective action/trims based upon these.

It has water/methanol injection capability written into the software.

Input from any wideband provides closed loop control.

I am testing on now in my personal car, but will be branching out to investigate making PNP kits for some of the less popular applications that ProEFI is not directly covering (MR2, Mk3, etc) simply due to volume.

Thoughts?

Also, I could make a budget Motec kit around the simple but powerful M4 or M48 if anyone is interested. M4 would be batch fire, M48 would allow sequential injection if you were inclined to re-wire your injectors. Both would feature full 6 channel direct ignition capability.

 

[becauseican]

More pnp options would be great!!!, What kind of price point are you thinking?. Not too many mk3 guys will shell out $2000+ though, but I am sure you know that already.

 

[figgie]

Hey John,

good undertaking and glad that you are doing it

Here are some inputs on a PnP standalone

Give it a good basemap. By good I mean enough to get it to a dyno shop. Not one to allow for full tilt running.

Disclosure, by this I mean state it, and if you have to BEAT IT into the users head that PnP does not mean it is easy to tune, beat it into them. That was the ONE big downfall of AEM. "ooooh it is PnP meaning it is easy to tune!". On the contrary, it is like any other full fledged standalone.

I think you would have buyers to go into a standalone if it was PnP (regardless of the standalone driving it). On the same token, as long as they understand that it is still a full fledged standalone and requires someone compentent in tuning the system like you. then they will be fine.

 

[John Reed]

More pnp options would be great!!!, What kind of price point are you thinking?. Not too many mk3 guys will shell out $2000+ though, but I am sure you know that already.

My target price, with AIT/MAP sensor included, was $1500 range though I need to crunch some numbers and see what exactly I can do. Wideband would be extra, though options like the AEM gauge or the Innovate LC1 are very cost effective.

Hey John,

good undertaking and glad that you are doing it

Here are some inputs on a PnP standalone

Give it a good basemap. By good I mean enough to get it to a dyno shop. Not one to allow for full tilt running.

Disclosure, by this I mean state it, and if you have to BEAT IT into the users head that PnP does not mean it is easy to tune, beat it into them. That was the ONE big downfall of AEM. "ooooh it is PnP meaning it is easy to tune!". On the contrary, it is like any other full fledged standalone.

I think you would have buyers to go into a standalone if it was PnP (regardless of the standalone driving it). On the same token, as long as they understand that it is still a full fledged standalone and requires someone compentent in tuning the system like you. then they will be fine.

Hey figgie,

Excellent points as always, and if I proceed with anything I will certainly address those issues.

Since it cannot natively run the stock Mk3 ignition, I am not sure how popular either the ProEFI or the budget Motec setup would be, since guys will have to step up the ignition at the same time as they go standalone. They would have a very nice package with excellent reliability when it was done though.

 

[figgie]

Since it cannot natively run the stock Mk3 ignition, I am not sure how popular either the ProEFI or the budget Motec setup would be, since guys will have to step up the ignition at the same time as they go standalone. They would have a very nice package with excellent reliability when it was done though.

You know after all these years, I still do not understand why Toyota decided to do a multiplexing for the ignition system in ONLY the 7m based cars!


Oh well, I agree with you. With the amount of external coils and ignition drivers, it should not be that hard a job. Techniocally if you really want, you should be able to do a waste spark setup and just use three channels of the ECU. The only thing you would really need to change is the OEM ignitor for one of a v6 car that uses GM two tower coils. The GM coils are very similiar in inductance to the 7m coils. So grand am, Grand Prix etc should have an ignition driver that should be easy replacement for the toyota one, which still requires some rewiring though! .

 

[Mr. Sinister]

So you would be making a harness adapter to fit the ProEFI ECU?

If it'll be as reliable a the stock ECU (and is as good as people are saying it is over on SF), I'd be interested. I don't want to have to bring a laptop with me every time I take the car out.

 

[turbodriz]

Hey Guys,

I have been thinking about doing a PNP for the Mk3, using the new ProEFI ECU. There are two levels of this ECU, and I was going to use the smaller unit as it would be pretty cost effective solution for the budget minded.

The basics:

Injectors would be batch fire still, same as the 7M is stock (and with the AEM).

Ignition you would have to replace the stock stuff (which I don't like anyway). You will however, with this unit, be able to run 6 coil direct fire ignition (you could use a Mk4 igniter and coils with no additional hardware).

It will have additional sensor inputs for fuel pressure, oil pressure, etc and can take corrective action/trims based upon these.

It has water/methanol injection capability written into the software.

Input from any wideband provides closed loop control.

I am testing on now in my personal car, but will be branching out to investigate making PNP kits for some of the less popular applications that ProEFI is not directly covering (MR2, Mk3, etc) simply due to volume.

Thoughts?

Also, I could make a budget Motec kit around the simple but powerful M4 or M48 if anyone is interested. M4 would be batch fire, M48 would allow sequential injection if you were inclined to re-wire your injectors. Both would feature full 6 channel direct ignition capability.

What type of price range would your budget motec system be around. Who makes ProEFI and if you had to rate among ur other standalones where would u put it. I heard you are the man when it comes to this stuff so I trust what ever u say.. By the way do you know of any good tuners in the N.C. area?

 

[Mr. Sinister]

Who makes ProEFI and if you had to rate among ur other standalones where would u put it.

Go and read this thread over on SF:

http://www.supraforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=454129

*Lots* of info there.

 

[John Reed]

What type of price range would your budget motec system be around. Who makes ProEFI and if you had to rate among ur other standalones where would u put it. I heard you are the man when it comes to this stuff so I trust what ever u say.. By the way do you know of any good tuners in the N.C. area?

I will be in NC this coming Monday/Tuesday doing tuning!

ProEFI is a new company out, using OEM ECU technology applied to the aftermarket. It is being headed up by a good friend of mine, who has been working in the standalone industry for a long time. If you go over to SF, there is a lot of the info posted there, but when I get time I will bring it directly to you guys here so it can be read/discussed.

 

[tissimo]

I don't want to have to bring a laptop with me every time I take the car out.

thats not the ecu, thats the tune thats on the ecu..

 

[turbodriz]

Definitly read up on it. I would be very interested!!! Still need a good tuner in N.C.

 

[turbodriz]

I read the post late. It's good to know that you travel to tune. Any smart man will pay for your airfair to tune there car. At least I will.

 

[figgie]

wow,

I think I am in the twilight zone!

Someone on this forum talking about flying out an experienced tuner to tune their car....

<-- looks out the window... Oh nos hell froze over!!

 

[Supracentral]

 

[Mr. Sinister]

thats not the ecu, thats the tune thats on the ecu..

Yes, I understand a laptop is not an ECU. That's why I said laptop.

Let me put it this way. How many people with standalones are 100% confident that they can always get their car started without having to tweak some value if the weather changes?

I know my VPC/G-Force combo isn't ideal, but I also know that unless something is mechanically broken, I can always get my car started. I can't say the same for the AEM if the temperature suddenly dropped 50 degrees and I don't have a laptop with me to tweak whatever value that needs tweaking.

From what I've read about the ProEFI, it may finally be the standalone with OEM reliability that's in my price range for what I need. I'm not willing to spend $4K+ on a Motec when I know I will unlikely ever use it to its full potential.

 

[comadreha]

Hi John,

I am glad you are passing on the ProEFI info over here. I have been following the ProEFI threads on SF since the beginning. Right now I am leaning toward an HKS V-Pro setup, but still have an interest in a ProEFI setup if it will work with my present and future setup. I have read enough good feedback from the V-Pro to believe that it has the potential to work for me.

Some questions for you;

- If I have to upgrade my ignition system, what would you recommend? What does the ProEFI support?

- I live in Socal. Who is going to be able to tune this thing? There are already V-Pro tuners available within a reasonable driving distance.

- The HKS V-Pro has a reputation for letting the car run like stock. The setup I commonly read about, is letting it work in piggyback mode. It lets the stock ECU control basic functions like the AC among other things and then takes over when the big power is needed. Will the ProEFI be available in the same type of setup or does it has to be setup only in standalone mode. This could be potentially important to me, because of emissions testing. I have been told that the V-Pro can be tuned to pass emissions. Of course, maybe any standalone can be tuned to achieve this. It is not a topic covered often, if at all, so I ask about it.

BTW, I have no problems being locked out of the unit software. I have no interest in tuning it myself, but it would be nice to have the capability of selecting different fuel maps using something similar like the HKS Navigator.

Thank you for offering another option.

Victor,

 

[supraguru05]

definitly interested i followed the mk4 thread over on sf about this new ecu. at 1500 dollars your system would be barely over what plug and play aems are selling for used

 

[tissimo]

Yes, I understand a laptop is not an ECU. That's why I said laptop.

Let me put it this way. How many people with standalones are 100&#37; confident that they can always get their car started without having to tweak some value if the weather changes?

I know my VPC/G-Force combo isn't ideal, but I also know that unless something is mechanically broken, I can always get my car started. I can't say the same for the AEM if the temperature suddenly dropped 50 degrees and I don't have a laptop with me to tweak whatever value that needs tweaking.

From what I've read about the ProEFI, it may finally be the standalone with OEM reliability that's in my price range for what I need. I'm not willing to spend $4K+ on a Motec when I know I will unlikely ever use it to its full potential.

with a proper tune itll start and run fine every time.. The problem isn't the ecu its the tune...

with a shitty tune your car with have the same problems no matter what ecu you have be it aem, autronic, this pro efi, or motec

 

[John Reed]

Some questions for you;

- If I have to upgrade my ignition system, what would you recommend? What does the ProEFI support?

My first recommendation would be a 2JZ-GTE Igniter and coils, though as figgie mentioned earlier, there are certainly other 3/6 channel igniters and coils out there you could use. The ProEFI will support most any igniter I can think of, at least those that don't require a weird input signal to operate.

- I live in Socal. Who is going to be able to tune this thing? There are already V-Pro tuners available within a reasonable driving distance.

Right now I will be the main guy in the West US to tune the ProEFI, though with the customer software you or any tuner of your choice that you trust could tune the basics for you like any other system. Right now this is not an option, but it is coming very soon.

- The HKS V-Pro has a reputation for letting the car run like stock. The setup I commonly read about, is letting it work in piggyback mode. It lets the stock ECU control basic functions like the AC among other things and then takes over when the big power is needed. Will the ProEFI be available in the same type of setup or does it has to be setup only in standalone mode. This could be potentially important to me, because of emissions testing. I have been told that the V-Pro can be tuned to pass emissions. Of course, maybe any standalone can be tuned to achieve this. It is not a topic covered often, if at all, so I ask about it.

The HKS does indeed run the cars very well (again only when properly tuned like any other system. However it is not the only one that can run them like stock. I have many an AEM and Motec Supra out there that run equally like stock. The HKS does sync up and fire faster than an AEM, but not really faster than a Motec. I have absolutely no data to back it up, but of the 3 mentioned, I actually feel that the Motec cars run the best in terms of throttle response and other subtle factors.

Any standalone can be tuned to pass emissions that do not require an OBD2 port plug in inspection, or a visual inspection (that checks for the stock ECU). If they are simply sticking a sniffer in the tailpipe, I have passed many a car/standalone combo. The HKS, in that it does keep the stock ECU in there for some functions, is the only one that COULD IN THEORY pass an OBD2 plug in test, though you will have to do a lot of creative signal cheating.

The ProEFI will utilize a CAN BUS display gauge, that along with displaying many engine operating parameters, it will also allow you to make minor tweaks to the tune (similar to the navigator).

Are you running a 7M, and if so what ignition did you have in mind for the HKS VPro? I believe AEM is the only aftermarket standalone out there that will run the multiplex ignition system.

 

[John Reed]

with a proper tune itll start and run fine every time.. The problem isn't the ecu its the tune...

with a shitty tune your car with have the same problems no matter what ecu you have be it aem, autronic, this pro efi, or motec

Yes, very well said. Each system does have strenghts and weaknesses, but of all the front line systems I deal with, if they are setup/tuned correctly you do not need to do constant fiddling to simply drive and enjoy your car. You only need to make changes if you change the mechanical setup of the car, OR if the car encounters an extreme temperature range that wasn't present when it was tuned. I try and ballpark my maps to account for this, but the bottom line is, until the car is actually in those conditions, you cannot verify the settings for sure. I tell my customers this, and work with them to tweak the tune if/when needed because of this. But once you set it to fire good in 30 degree weather, it will always start good in 30 degree weather!

The OEM's use temperature chambers and haul cars all over the country/world to expose them to every possible temperature/altitude condition they can when setting them up. I wish we could do this, but that will never be reality.