87 7MGTE No Spark; In desperate need of help in NORFOLK

[Mueller87]

I'll try and keep this short so I can maximize my chances of being assisted...

I've been working on small block chevy's for 99% of the time I've been working on cars. I know what I'm doing most of the time when it comes to simple engine electrical systems, but this 87 is giving me problems.

The car has a brand new optima battery, a new fuel pump, a fresh fuel tank. The car cranks real strong, but won't fire even if I feed it a mist of fuel through the intake. not even a pop or a chug.

Now I knew when I bought it there was a good chance it wouldn't start as-is.



you can see its pretty b*tched up in this general area, but I was hoping the guy I got it from had it rigged to run at that point minus the fuel tank/pump issues I had initially.

I've looked through the haynes repair manual wiring diagrams and not enough of the components or terminals are identified simply enough for me to figure it out.

I hope someone who finds this has an idea of what to try and it'd be incredible if someone from the Norfolk VA could help me. I really need to get something going with this car soon because I'm not really allowed to do work on my car in my apartment's parking lot. (I know, I know... but when I moved here I was in a rush and didn't think I'd be undertaking a project like this)

So to sum it all up, I am illiterate when it comes to wiring any more complicated than an early chevy, and I know this is something I've got to work to improve, but right now I need help.

Any suggestions?

 

[jetjock]

Why do people buy such POS cars in the first place?

The only thing in that area that matters for spark is the cam position sensor and the wiring there doesn't look too good. Fix it. Once you get spark and the engine fires when fuel or ether is manually added then you can make sure the fuel pump is working and repair, if necessary, the two-wire coolant sender behind the thermostat and the cold start injection system.

Also check for diagnostic codes:

http://www.cygnusx1.net/Supra/TechTips/engine_error_codes.aspx

Here's the online service manual and wiring diagrams. Lose the Haynes.

http://www.cygnusx1.net/Supra/Library/TSRM/MK3/

With a car like that it's one miracle at a time. Any questions, ask...

 

[Mueller87]

Why did I buy this car? A few reasons

Anyone in this area selling one of these cars thinks theyre worth a fortune and wont let them go for any reasonable price.

I was looking for a project from the beggining.

Only cost me $900

Is Factory turbo with R154

Body is straight

No rust

Car came with 2 starion "celica xx" type wheels in decent shape

I knew there was ample help/advice/knowledge on this website

Most of all: I've had cars come back from worse.


I guess I can list a few good reasons not to buy the car.

Its an 87 and it doesn't start

Paint is pretty rough all around

Interior is torn apart

236k on the odometer

Waistline trim is rusted beneath and warped/deformed

Wrong wheels on the car (mitsubishi diamante I believe)

And thats just about everything I can think of. Since you asked why people buy such POS cars. I feel like if I hadn't bought it, it would have wound up in a crusher somewhere.

Anyways, I really appreciate your help. I dont have any doubts about getting it running now. Thank you!

 

[oldsking]

Yeah man that wiring nightmare in the cam position sensor is your problem. I have a pic of mine when I installed it buts its a 90 so the wire colors are incorrect.

 

[Tuner.87]

where about in Norfolk are you. Im in Newport news but work on the base during trhe week so you can come look at mine or meet somewhere and we can compare the two

 

[Mueller87]

where about in Norfolk are you. Im in Newport news but work on the base during trhe week so you can come look at mine or meet somewhere and we can compare the two

PM sent- Tuner.87

 

[Mueller87]

You know something else occurred to me today while working on the car some more. There was a spare CPS (cam position sensor) lying behind the drivers seat and a male & female plug that belong to it as well. Different color wires than anything I have on my car.

To the best of my knowledge this car hasnt ran in about 4 years. I'm 95% sure that for a decent period of time in the beginning of it's life it was kept in a garage because there is almost no rust on the car, I mean some of the hardware holding the bumpers on is in rough shape but the body is rust free.

Anyways, This CPS had to have been changed by one of the more recent 'careless' owners and I highly doubt that It was re-installed in the correct position.

This wouldn't keep the plugs from sparking though, would it? they'd just spark at the wrong time I'm guessing. If anyone knows different I'd love to know. I've tested the plugs and I'm not getting spark anywhere, but Today I did get the coil for cylinders 2 & 5 really warm... Not sure if that's good or bad but The other 2 didn't warm up.

hmmmmmm

 

[jetjock]

Yeah, just at the wrong time. The nice thing about having a spare CPS is it can be spun by hand during troubleshooting to save wear and tear on the starter and battery. Course, so can the one in the car once it's been removed. You also need to make sure there's 12 volts at the coil packs and injector resistor with the key on. Refer to the EWD.

 

[Mueller87]

Okay So i measure the coil packs by the wires just below the the spark plug wires on the front of the "coil pack holder assembly"? and where is the injector resistor located? I'm looking through all 3 of these manuals and I can't find where it's physically located...

 

[Mueller87]

So I just got the test light to light only on the right side wires on the pairs that go beneath the spark plug wires. so like this [0][X] [0][X] [0][X] with the X's giving me light. Still not sure where the injector resistor is located

 

[jetjock]

It's on the driver side fender well.

Might be easier to simply unplug the fuel pump relay on the pax side fender, plug in the spare CPS, turn the key on (check the MIL is lit) and spin the CPS by hand while checking for spark and listening for injection.

Not that they'll help with the current situation but did you check for codes yet?

Its an 87 and it doesn't start

Paint is pretty rough all around

Interior is torn apart

236k on the odometer

Waistline trim is rusted beneath and warped/deformed

Wrong wheels on the car (mitsubishi diamante I believe)

And thats just about everything I can think of. Since you asked why people buy such POS cars. I feel like if I hadn't bought it, it would have wound up in a crusher somewhere.

And you paid "only" 900 for this? Sounds as if it should have wound up in the crusher.

 

[Mueller87]

How much would you be willing to pay for a straight bodied car with no engine? How much would you pay for an R154? How much would you pay for a complete 7MGTE? How much would you pay for 2 Starion wheels? If in fact you wanted to buy them. I don't feel like $900 was a bad deal at all considering what I make and what people try to sell these cars for around here.

I've seen non-turbo automatics with bad paint and hit-and-miss body damage, rust, leaks, and other little imperfections listed for 3 or 4 times what I paid.

If I could have found an 87 Supra Turbo with the engine and tranny and with a straight body and no rust for less than 900 Dollars I would have bought it. I'm a mechanic, and Where I work we've been doing 100% overhauls on our equipment, a lot of focus serious amount of body work, however the only engines we work with are 3 and 6 cylinder detroit diesel engines. So obviously what I did before the military and what I do now isn't really lending itself well to this EFI and Distributorless ignition system.

Before I was in the military I did all my work myself, without any kind of issues. Partly, I'm sure, because All my cars had carbeurated chevy small blocks in them. Mechanical fuel pumps, no ECU, you get the idea. But any of the suspension or body work or interior work doesn't really change from any of my old cars to this one. . So other than the electronics (Which I'm trying to get a better grasp on) I can finish all the other work myself. So minus the cost of replacement engine, suspension, driveline parts and simple supplies and paint, Its all free. Its a little different than me buying this car and taking it to a garage to have everything done on it by someone charging by the hour.

At any rate, the money is spent and this is the situation that I'm in.

I promise once it's on the road and I can get to a place where I'm actually allowed to work on it, pretty soon the last thing on your mind will be 'Crusher"!

Edit:Sorry, I sort-of focused on the last part of your reply...

anyway, I haven't checked the codes yet because I don't have a diagnostic testing module. Heck, I don't even have a multimeter. I've got a test light. and assuming that since my next step is to check the Injector Resistor, I need to measure Ohms, which is something my simple old test light doesn't have a setting for. Guess now I ought to go out and buy a multimeter eh?

 

[SC61 MK3]

First off just looking at that picture makes me shudder... I could teach a toddler to do a better wiring repair.

Judging by that nightmare and your lack of experience with this motor (no offense) you should be looking to replace the entire harness to save a lot of time and frustration

And lose the test light and pick up a digital multi meter. Read the EFI section front to back from the TSRM manual and start testing wires as shown in the manual. There is really nothing else to tell you, read the TSRM its all in there

And to check the code all you need is a paper clip or wire jumper. Again its in the tsrm. Google "supra tsrm" and the turboninjas one should come up. Pick either 86-88 or 89-92 depending on year and check out the efi section

 

[jetjock]

I provided a link that shows exactly how to check codes and what each one means. Good luck...

 

[SC61 MK3]

I provided a link that shows exactly how to check codes and what each one means. Good luck...

^^ missed that post sorry, I'm on my phone and just skimmed over the thread to be honest.

To the OP, any more pics of "repairs" done? I could use a good laugh... or cry

 

[Mueller87]

Thanks for the help jetjock,, glad someone paid attention. And to SC61, there are a few other spots on the car that make me wonder about the previous owners. Ill upload some pictures when I get the chance, probably tomorrow. Ah now that I think about it I have probably 3 or 4 more really good ones.

 

[jetjock]

...missed that post sorry, I'm on my phone and just skimmed over the thread to be honest...

My reply was directed at the OP, not you. I expected him to pay attention. Others, not so much...

 

[Mueller87]

So I didn't have a chance to get a picture of everything interesting about the car but here's what was going on with the floorpan in the back.



My guess is that The previous owner or the one before him was trying to get to the fuel lines to disconnect them without jacking the car up, because after the little bit of work I did putting a fuel tank back in it and a new fuel pump its pretty easy to get to the connections from underneath. I wonder about this guy...



I'm not sure if you can see this or not but In this spot someone stenciled a playboy bunny icon directly onto the hood. Imagine my disappointment when I realized this was covered up with black primer :cry:






Aside from that, Today I tried to check the codes and well... Things might be worse than I thought. Obviously the car doesn't start right now, but I don't know if that is why the check engine light doesn't illuminate at all. All of the other lights on the dash function. All the lights work correctly, even the headlight motors still work. All 3 wipers work. Drivers seat still works in every direction. Mirrors still work.

A previous Owner eliminated the TEMS setup after changing the springs and shocks. Also the car has the 88+ taillights installed.

[URL]

This weekend I took off the spoiler and scrapped it. Also Put on a new used bumper in just about perfect shape. only problem is its White!!

One of the best things I found was a zip Tie looped around the assembly that ties together the lower control arms and differential. What was the zip tie holding you ask? Why, the Exhaust pipe! what else?! On the bright side, it Looks like someone partially installed a 3" or better stainless exhaust.

and since I already have Imageshack open, Heres a picture of one of the Starion Wheels I got with the car.

[URL=http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/266/20130317223811887.jpg/]

Im Gonna keep at it during the week, and In the mean time.. Anyone know where the best place to buy a complete engine wiring harness is? and how much It runs? I've seen mk3 supras in the boneyard before but they are few and far between, and if they even were a 1987 turbo 5 speed, I doubt the harness would be in much better condition than the one I have.

I wouldn't mind rewiring the ignition system myself, but for the right price I'd just buy a headache-free complete harness...

Oh and I almost forgot...

The car had no brake pads on it when I brought it home. What possesses someone to remove all 8 brake pads from a car? And to then put the wheels back on without replacing them? the rotors arent in bad shape, and the calipers are OK... I still Can't figure this one out.

The fuse box just to the left of the clutch pedal is a mystery, too. A few loose wires that couldn't have been used for anything other than jumping the fuses. I have decided on that as their use because every single space that called for a fuse rated at less than 25 amps was conveniently equipped with a 25 amp fuse. Thanks guy! I didn't even have to ask!

 

[SC61 MK3]

Oh man.... LOL

On the check engine light not coming on you should first pull the gauge cluster and see if there is a working bulb in place. Some jackasses remove the bulb instead of fixing the code, sad to say I've come across it before...

Now if there IS a working bulb in place and no cel lights up with ignition on you either have a bad ecu or wiring harness.....

 

[3p141592654]

Whoa, bad ECU is the last thing to assume. Start with the easy stuff and work your way to the harder checks.

If the CEL is not illuminating, first check the Gauge, IGN, and EFI fuses are good. Then move on to troubleshoot the B+ lines. Turn on the ignition and look for 12V on B+ at the check connector under the hood. If B+ is good, then suspect the bulb, but don't start by pulling out the dash when you can spend 2 minutes and check the easy things.

If B+ is dead, then work backwards through the EFI main relay and so on to find the problem. Use the TEWD to help figure it out.

http://www.cygnusx1.net/Supra/Library/TEWD/MK3/manual.aspx?S=Main&P=47