Flutter , is it a Exhaust leak or BHG?!?!?!

[Cedrock15]

Hey guys picked up first supra (87 turbo 4 speed auto) from used car shop last week of July and I bought it with a flutter/helicopter sound. Dont know what a Supra should feel like but I know its not close to full hp because I can barely feel boost and acceleration feels delayed. First few months i took care of essential maintainance, then last month finally reached trying to solve that problem. Took it to the dealership they did a quick like 30 minute check and said it was
"exhaust manifold leaking because of crack at bottom, need fresh air tube and clamps" Gave me $445 cost parts, labor $773.

Lol ok, paid $1700 for car now way I was going to pay over $1k for that job. Bought exhaust manifold, and gasket and took it to a guy Eric at PhillyDynoworks, he was recommended by Supra Dr from Supraforums. He called me halfway through the day when he was working on it and said he had everything off down to to exhaust manifold and was looking at exhaust manifold and there was no cracks or leaks coming from it. Only a little sut where stock dp attached to turbo (put gasket maker on that), and recommended I leave the stock mani. on because switching wouldnt fix problem. So I did, but still have the flutter. I had coolant leaking from bottom of radiator this past week (not overflow tank which is usually bhg), and had me fearing bhg. Hasnt leaked in days, and today was determined and began feeling around trying to pinpoint exactly where exhaust leak is. Well I did :icon_surp , its leaking from bottom of engine at corner against wall, where the side of exhaust manifold is. When i put my hand furtherback (same height as top of exhaust manifold) behind the engine, like 3 inches behind engine I feel a much stronger amount of air, and its much hotter.

My guess is the exhaust manifold gasket is leaking at the top left side just below corner making it not visible, and or bhg (which is only thing it can be that can cause a flutter from that location?) at back passenger side of engine block. Any ideas/comments or experience on what it might be?

 

[americanjebus]

ok bhg as explained in the FAQ, is going to make you overheat, turn your coolant brown and look like milkshake, and will cause the waterfall sound behind your dashboard, what you have probably is just an exhaust leek, just get a new real gasket on there (not gasket maker)

clean everything that will tell you if theres anything else.

bhg will be obvious, coolant will be pouring out of overflow, temp guage will shoot up, you will have whtie smoke, waterfall sound, and you will consume allot of water before your radiator finaly blows up from the trapped exhaust gasses.

your "flutte" could just be a bad stock bypass vavle, "where blow off valve goes"

when does it flutter? idle, higher rpms, constant?

all else fails get a compression test, and use one of those liquid testers from napa to see if you have exhaust in your coolant.

this flutter is something else.

 

[Cedrock15]

Yea ive been reading alot about bhg and all kinds of Faqs ive got few other sympthoms. When i got the car the coolant was thick and brown in overflow tank and when i flushed it wasnt as thick (not milky) but brown. Hasnt changed colors yet in the past 2 months. I did notice a gurggling sound for (for the only/first time, on the 2nd day coolant leaked) behind the dash that was another reason i believed it was a bhg but was told most likely air in system, so burped it hour ago. Gonna try doing a compression test tommorow.
It make the flutter constantly, barely at idle and gets louder at acceleration.

Not overheating, but my temp gauge doesnt work 80% of the time, but when it works its normal temp. just below halfway and never overheated. Changed the temp sender unit that screwed in thermostat housing, and made no difference.

 

[lagged]

maybe the EGR cooler is leaking.

 

[Dirgle]

You might check the EGR Coolant plate (http://www.cygnusx1.net/supra/library/TSRM/em/EM_40.html, this is at the back of the head) to make sure it is on there tight, though with eight bolts holding it on there I've never seen one come loose. Also check the exhaust manifold bolts to make sure there tight. It is also possible that someone has swapped in a JDM 7MGTE engine. In which case the EGR equipment will be removed and in place of the EGR cooler it will have an EGR block off plate which could come loose leaking exhaust leak.

<edit> lagged beat me to it

 

[empera]

hey are u still gonna bring it down sunday?

 

[Cedrock15]

Went down to meet with empera today (cool person and gave some advice to getting car in better cond.). Recommended I retorque the head in mean time, when I do this in a few weeks im going to try tightening the egr cooler. Few questions though,
1. When I retorque should i change stock bolts (safe to retorque?), and i back each one out starting with center, then retorque to 70 lbs?
2. Will all egr bolts be accessible to tigten with the valve cover off?

Thanks again, for replies so far and empera beleives its not bhg which is good, and thinks its the exhaust manifold leak/egr cooler.

 

[souprat]

.....
1. When I retorque should i change stock bolts (safe to retorque?), and i back each one out starting with center, then retorque to 70 lbs?
......

i'm pretty shure the stock bolts are good till at least 72ft/lbs. you could replace them with ARP studs if you wanted to and torque them down tighter. but i'm confused about the second part of this question. when you de-torque you always start with the outside and work your way in to the center. when you tighten you start with the center and work your way to the outside.

 

[SupraRacer]

Its spark, if it does it all the time, your running on 5cyl. check your plug wires, you would be suprised how many no5 wires ground out the the 3000pipe, or ypipe on NA's. Then check your plugs, make sure they are gapped correctly. go to the TSRM and check the ohm resistance of all the wires, make sure they are all within spec. If that all checks out, then its your Coil packs, if thats fine, then its your CPS.

Now its unlikely but if all that is ok. then it could be a bad injector. would do the same thing. easiest way to find a bad inj, is to have the car idling. and use rubber handled pliers and pull a spark plug wire one by one, the car should nearly die. if you pull one and nothing changes that cyl is the dead one.

 

[Cedrock15]

When you detorque you start with outside, and go to center? I always thought it was the same as when you retorque (start center and go outwards).

Supraracer i hope and wish it is spark. It does sound like its running on 5 cylinders (and it may be). I changed spark plugs a few weeks ago and that didnt do anything to help. The spark plugs all looked the same and there was no difference in color between any. You might have solved the problem though as this does sound just like my last car where i ran on 3 cylinders (4cylinder car).Only difference when it ran on 3 cylinders it would have same sympthoms, but would not pass 60 mph by any means, I havent maxed out yet with this though.

I do love that list though, and will check everything i can this comign weekend.
Im sure how to do everything else but how do you check the coil packs, and what is cps ?

 

[souprat]

When you detorque you start with outside, and go to center? I always thought it was the same as when you retorque (start center and go outwards).....

.....what is cps ?

yes always detorque from the outside and work in. torque from the inside and go out. it's in the TSRM. CPS= cam position sensor. facing the engine from the bumper it's on the left behind the power stearing resivour.

 

[Cedrock15]

Thanks for confirming, now i know. But still kinda confused, Im doing one bolt at a time (back one out, then tighten, then move on to next bolt) not pulling all of them out at once (which I think you just gave me correct procedure for), rather one out at a given moment. Still start with outside?

 

[Cedrock15]

Bump, well.....its been about a year, the helicopter sound has always been there then it dissapeared! Silence! I did a HG job, new gaskets all over, for the past 2 months (time ive had car since hg job was done) its been driving quietly with no noise, until last night;

I was merging on a turnpike and floored it about 80%, then let go of the gas. Blow off valve went of, and i heard something else (the sound was kind of masked by the BOV) iirc it was like a hose coming off and shooting out air/liquid. I let go of gas all the way expecting the worse, then hit it again to maintain speed. Helicopter sound has come back :icon_evil , let go of gas again and hit gas again the same loud fluttering exhaust leak sound. Now im back to where i was a year ago, today i swapped out my 3,4,5, and 6th spark plugs hoping it was the problem...didnt work. Can anybody tell me what could be causing this please let me know. Its a loud fluttering sound, and now sounds like a pos car which is the last thing i want.
intake manifold loose, egr cooler plate, cylinder messed up, injector?

 

[jdub]

Does it sound like a "tick" that varies with rpm?

 

[JustAnotherVictim]

Have you gotten under the hood to try to pinpoint a local area of the noise or does it only show up during driving?

You thinking valve ticking jdub?

 

[jdub]

You thinking valve ticking jdub?

An exhaust leak will have a "clicking" or "ticking" sound. Especially if it's on the passenger side...my next question was to ask what kind of exhaust manifold gasket he used when he did the HG job.

 

[JustAnotherVictim]

If that's the problem I would think he would want to make sure the threads are still good or better idea go and helicoil them.
Fel-pro exhaust gaskets are the best IMO.

 

[jdub]

If that's the problem I would think he would want to make sure the threads are still good or better idea go and helicoil them.
Fel-pro exhaust gaskets are the best IMO.

I'm with ya on that one...when I was doing my re-build, I had all the exhaust studs helicoiled and I torqued to 40 ft/lbs using ARP stainless 12 pt nuts/washers. I haven't seen a Fel-pro, but if it's a copy of the one Toyota is supplying now it's good...Toyota changed the exhaust gasket to a multi-layer steel design. Much better...actually pretty much the same as the NA used for years

 

[Cedrock15]

Its not really a tick sound, if it is then the its ticking so fast it just about sounds like one continuos sound.

The sound gets louder the higher the rpm, so when i open the hood it can barely be heard, as i rev the engine under the hood the sound gets louder. Which makes it harder to track down exactly where its at. When at idle it sounds like its behind the head (around egr cooler plate). But when i rev it sounds like its back of the head & both the exhaust manifold and intake manifold around the last cylinder. So basically the sounds coming from the back of the engine. I dont think (hope) its a exhaust leak b/c i feel no air around the exhaust manifold, and last year when i had the sound i dropped it off @ mechanic and they said there was no exhaust leak found. But the sound reminds me of a hole in exhaust system (not as loud) and helicopter mix. Hope this helps.

Oh i used a aftermarket head gasket kit, and the exhaust manifold gasket it came with. Im praying its not the exhaust mani. i made sure i torqued it properly and this would blow bigtime. Thanks for input so far, im gonna drop car off for diagnostic tommorow. So any more ideas are wanted.

BTW wouldnt there be an odor if there was an exhaust leak?

 

[JustAnotherVictim]

BTW wouldnt there be an odor if there was an exhaust leak?

Not necessarily, depending on how big the leak is I would say yes.
What you're describing does still sound like an exhaust leak.
Have you tried having someone sit in the car and gradually give it gas while you check around the engine bay?