Total Seal Piston Rings

[SUPRACER]

I have recently been told about these rings and was very interested in there design and gains in performance. I was woundering if anyone has previously used them in the 7m-gte motor and how much they gained. I do know that thay have a two peice comp ring and they boost compression and vacuum and decrease blow bye. Any gains in knowledge would be very welcome.

 

[figgie]

You won't gain anything. It will make the motor a HAIR more efficient.

The issue, need to follow the directions to a T as the total seal rings do not do well with the OEM cross hatch pattern.

 

[Zumtizzle]

A local Civic Bud followed all the directions and he burns about a quart every 1000 miles.

 

[SUPRACER]

They have a chrome moly outer coating that takes a while to seat if done properly. If the honing process was not done right then the rings would not seat properly, correct? thanks for the info guys keep it coming please.

 

[Zumtizzle]

I'd avoid them on these motors.

 

[Doward]

You need a specialized plateau hone, and then you need a HARD break in to get them to seal properly.

 

[SUPRACER]

You need a specialized plateau hone, and then you need a HARD break in to get them to seal properly.

So any good bead hone wouldnt be right for the job? What is a plateau hone exactly if you dont mind sheding a lil light? They said on there site not to let the motor idle for long periods of time and that break in would be a good night at the track or like 500 highway miles, is this cause of the chrome coating? Also they offer a set that uses a two piece design for both the top and second compresion rings, again would there be more gains to this option?:aigo:

 

[Poodles]

It's more hassle than it's worth to be honest, stay away from them...

 

[Van]

I'm also needing to make a decision on this type of ring versus conventional. The engine builder I've gone to is in favor of using these on race built motors like mine and has done several over the last few years. He had one broken-in last week on a dyno and by the second pull, they had 50 more WHP. He says they're good to drive as hard as you need to, once it's HARD broken-in.
Can another engine builder on this forum provide the pros and cons on this product, before I commit to going this route?
Thanks. Van

 

[Poodles]

50 more HP? I'm calling BS on your engine builder...

 

[IJ.]

50 more HP? I'm calling BS on your engine builder...

Over a tired leaky engine with conventional rings maybe.

 

[Van]

I'm also needing to make a decision on this type of ring versus conventional. The engine builder I've gone to is in favor of using these on race built motors like mine and has done several over the last few years. He had one broken-in last week on a dyno and by the second pull, they had 50 more WHP. He says they're good to drive as hard as you need to, once it's HARD broken-in.
Can another engine builder on this forum provide the pros and cons on this product, before I commit to going this route?

Also, Russ Meeks of RM Engineering / Finish Line Coatings, had nothing good or, bad to say about the Total Seal ring set. Other Salt Flats, land speed competitors use Total Seal rings with good success, but Russ hasn't had to rebuild. He opted to stay conventional, he built the motor, and has no experience building with Total Seal rings. It is his considered opinion that if I were to go that route, go with a builder with a lot of experience with that product. Van

 

[Bigzavs]

at my old job at Reher-Morrison Racing engines, all we would use is Total Seal rings, from the 414 stroker SBC all the way up to the 944ci monster BBC (such a fun engine). Like its been said, they require a special style of hone and a hard hard break in. the dyno operator would hold the motor at a certain rpm for 5-10 mins, drain the oil, put in new oil, change the timing and proceed to do 20-30 full pulls on the engine dyno.

wouldnt say there would be a definite advantage on a street car. just go with rings from your piston manufacturer or get a set from toyota

 

[Van]

Thank you, Bigzavs. It's good to have another perspective in matters as important as this. Van

at my old job at Reher-Morrison Racing engines, all we would use is Total Seal rings, from the 414 stroker SBC all the way up to the 944ci monster BBC (such a fun engine). Like its been said, they require a special style of hone and a hard hard break in. the dyno operator would hold the motor at a certain rpm for 5-10 mins, drain the oil, put in new oil, change the timing and proceed to do 20-30 full pulls on the engine dyno.

wouldnt say there would be a definite advantage on a street car. just go with rings from your piston manufacturer or get a set from toyota

 

[Koenigturbo]

So any good bead hone wouldnt be right for the job? What is a plateau hone exactly if you dont mind sheding a lil light? They said on there site not to let the motor idle for long periods of time and that break in would be a good night at the track or like 500 highway miles, is this cause of the chrome coating? Also they offer a set that uses a two piece design for both the top and second compresion rings, again would there be more gains to this option?:aigo:

Bead Hone?? Is there such a thing? I thought the bead hone was for deglazing not for honing. I was read in the instuctions the honing stones it has to be a specific type (diamond) I think. Also it has to be a Specific cross hatch, specific angle. and it has to be perfect!! I also heard or read that you'll end up with, high presure in the block. I started installing them, I couldn't get the gaps were I could feel confidant that the gaps were right, everytime I checked the gaps the numbers were all over the place or not consistant. So, I went with just regular rings. Now if you want, you can buy my set of "Total seal" rings on the cheap.

 

[SUPRACER]

Bead Hone?? Is there such a thing? I thought the bead hone was for deglazing not for honing. I was read in the instuctions the honing stones it has to be a specific type (diamond) I think. Also it has to be a Specific cross hatch, specific angle. and it has to be perfect!! I also heard or read that you'll end up with, high presure in the block. I started installing them, I couldn't get the gaps were I could feel confidant that the gaps were right, everytime I checked the gaps the numbers were all over the place or not consistant. So, I went with just regular rings. Now if you want, you can buy my set of "Total seal" rings on the cheap.

Not interested ! Allready got em on the cheap! $240.00.

 

[Adjuster]

I have no personal experience with Total Seal rings, but I do know that most ring problems on new/freshly rebuilt motors with ring sealing problems is due to gentle break in routines of the motor.

The rings use the cross hatch pattern to cut them to fit to each bore. That sharp cross hatch only lasts for awhile, and while you can still see the pattern, the sharp peaks are shaved off pretty quick, and they cease to cut the rings any further very quickly. (It can take many thousands of miles to get a reduction in oil use for example if you break in a motor slowly/gently, and that will also affect power, and how long the engine lasts depending on oil change intervals.)

I think a quick, hard break in is the best way to go. Use whatever 30 weight oil you can get your hands on, and change it and the filter at 50 miles, 200 miles and 500 miles. By that point, you should be broken in, and little or no "machine" work between parts will happen any more. (Everything should be floating on a film of oil, no metal to metal contact other than start up for the most part, and rings should be seated, and match each bore since the cross hatch by 500 miles is pretty much dull, and not cutting the rings quickly anymore IMHO.)

Heck, by 500 miles, you can put in a good filter and switch to synthetic oil in my opinon. (Not to start an oil debate here, but we are talking about breaking in rings, and I don't reccomend using synthtic oil for that process, besides, you are just throwing money away with the fast oil changes to use any oil other than the cheapest stuff you can find.)

 

[SUPRACER]

Thanks ADJUSTER thats the kind of information im looking for. Thanks for the inpute.

I have no personal experience with Total Seal rings, but I do know that most ring problems on new/freshly rebuilt motors with ring sealing problems is due to gentle break in routines of the motor.

The rings use the cross hatch pattern to cut them to fit to each bore. That sharp cross hatch only lasts for awhile, and while you can still see the pattern, the sharp peaks are shaved off pretty quick, and they cease to cut the rings any further very quickly. (It can take many thousands of miles to get a reduction in oil use for example if you break in a motor slowly/gently, and that will also affect power, and how long the engine lasts depending on oil change intervals.)

I think a quick, hard break in is the best way to go. Use whatever 30 weight oil you can get your hands on, and change it and the filter at 50 miles, 200 miles and 500 miles. By that point, you should be broken in, and little or no "machine" work between parts will happen any more. (Everything should be floating on a film of oil, no metal to metal contact other than start up for the most part, and rings should be seated, and match each bore since the cross hatch by 500 miles is pretty much dull, and not cutting the rings quickly anymore IMHO.)

Heck, by 500 miles, you can put in a good filter and switch to synthetic oil in my opinon. (Not to start an oil debate here, but we are talking about breaking in rings, and I don't reccomend using synthtic oil for that process, besides, you are just throwing money away with the fast oil changes to use any oil other than the cheapest stuff you can find.)