San Francisco, shame on you.

[Adjuster]

One more thing.
How is land ownership only a "whiteman's" option?

I guess you missed the part were on 12.50 an hour I owned my own home, and supported my family? That is available to everyone, not just me because I'm a white male.

Keep in mind that I'm 1/6th American Indian too.

But most of all, I'm a native Californian, who has seen the light, and will never live there again while the socialists are in control of that great place to live climate wise.

Land ownership was used by the founders of this great country because it truely was the only way of NOT limiting anyone from voting. (Ok, so at the time there were many flaws, but it was better than it is now with socialism taking over due to the voting trends of those who don't have, but want your wealth.)

You have to keep in mind those that have wealth, but feel guilty about it, and vote socialist to ease this feeling of guilt. (Why is it OK to teach people this feeling of guilt for slavery, or Indians being put on reservations, or Interning Japanese during WWII are all things we should now feel guilty about, and then hand over some money to ease the pain?

I never owned slaves, created reservations or put Japanese into camps during a war. Yet I'm being told I should feel sorry for it?

Hello!! this is about as sane as my going to the Netherlands or England and asking them for money because my great-great-great whatever was forced to leave the country...

Or better yet, bringing up the 1/6th of my ancestors and getting a free plot of land, and some reservation money every month....

Whatever. I'd rather die than take a handout every month from the government and lose my freedom and self worth in the process. I'll just keep working hard, saving my money and voting conservative to slow down the process of this country falling apart at the edges while those of you in the cities voting socialist hopfully will see the writing on the wall and change. (Doubtfull, but I can always hope right?)

 

[Adjuster]

Did I not say in my former post that I'd do the same thing if I was living in Mexico, and could come up here and have a better life?

I NEVER said everyone was on the dole. Just everyone I worked with at Nestle was on the dole, and making the same wages I was.

Some of my best friends are Mexican, and Japanese and Indian. I even have some great Arab friends. The reality is my friends are all hardworking people who are making it on their own money with little or no government support. Anyone of them that has used a goverment program, used it to better themselves, and now are no longer on the dole, but making it on their own.

It's the ones who are on second and third generations of welfare that piss me off.

The examples of pooling money and buying a house are a great example of hardworking Americans that I love and would help in an instant to become even more sucessful. I don't care what race you are, if your here to improve yourself, and become my hardworking neighbor, wecome to the country. Here's your voting ballet.

It's the ones not interested in the hardworking part, or using the system to get ahead just because it's there and that should not be voting in my opinion.

Again, land ownership is the only really fair way of determining this level of commitment.

 

[7MGTEJoe]

1) Let the people vote themselves wealth.
2) Minimalize, and even criminalize the idea of military service.
3) Become totally decadent and lazy.

The result is a fallen superpower. (Society if you want to call it that.)

Some examples?
Rome.
Persia.
Egypt.
Pretty much every past civilization has gone through this cycle of hard work, becoming powerfull and prosperous, and then falling into complacency of the wealth being spread out to those that did not work for it, the military falls, the country becomes a great target of plunder, and there you have it, some other group of hardworking people comes along and tears your civilization down.

This is the entire point of my thread.

Voting is just one part.
Being "Liberal" or socialist is dangerous when you look at history. It's the path to the failure of our country. I can't say it any clearer than that. History repeats unless you made the hard choices to change the path, and areas like SF are firmly walking down the path to distruction.

The empires of the ancient world built their wealth through military conquest and slavery, is this the “hard work” you're talking about? Their inevitable collapse was caused by revolutions in their captive nations and invaders attacking boarders far from their center of power.

The United States, who was once a component of the largest empire the world has ever seen, revolted. Why? Because we believed that taxation without representation was unfair; 229 years later you're advocating it.

 

[Joel W.]

i just threw the race issue in there to see how far you would take it Adjuster....i said i was being sarcastic..i was not being serious. trying to make a point...

i agree, what happened 200 years ago with slavery and with the indians was bad, but it was not my fault or my parents fault.. i dont think i should owe anyone for past mistakes that had nothing to do with me..the problem with land ownership and rights in the past is only the rich had rights.. the poor were kept poor as a means of controlling them..

 

[Adjuster]

Joe, you think the USA was not built on the backs of slave labor and military might?

LOL, read your history dude.

The south was very rich on cotton and lumber, and slave labor was running all of it. The slaves did not rebel in this country, but the northern states outlawed salvery, and the civil war killed more Americans over it than any other war yet.

Rome had many "free" slaves and was very "civilized" near the end. Much like America is today. Rights for everyone, public assistance and money to those that never worked for it etc. Your right, the enemies of Rome saw this weakness and attacked the Romans, and since they had de-toothed the military, they could not defend themselves and were wiped out.

We are not to this point yet, but we are heading down the path, and this vote of SF that kicked the military in the nuts, symbolizes how quickly those that never had to fight for their freedom forget that freedom is not free.

Also how do you figure taxation without representation in my landowner voting idea? If you own your house/land, you get to vote. Plain and simple really. I pay property taxes that those who don't own land DO NOT PAY. If you want to start a tax thread, please be my guest.
1) Income taxes are illegal. (Well, they were voted into existance to fund the needs of the many off the backs of those making a living.)
2) Land taxes suck too, but I pay them knowing that hopfully they pay for the schools my kids attend, the military who defends my life and freedom and other stuff like roads and police to keep people honest.

I think tax reform is a huge issue that needs a thread in here.. LOL

How about this one.
Abolish income tax.
Set a federal sales tax of 5%.
Landowners have a further 5% of the cost of property (At purchase, not current value.) they pay annualy.
Fuel taxes go directly to roads and other vehicle infastructure. Set this at .30 cents per gal. Plenty of money for roads etc.
Do not allow states to set income taxes. They get another 5% of sales. (Total of 10% sales taxes.)

 

[Joel W.]

my name is Joel...btw. i know my history fairly well. , im aware of slavery yes, what you say is true, but that does not make it a good thing.. or the right thing... i try and learn from history and try not to make the same mistakes again. slaves didnt rebel huh??.. the ones that did were killed so ya that tended to stop the rest.. some one had to step in... Roman free slaves? those were slaves that won their freedom for fighting and killing each other for thier rulers amusement was it not? even then they were not really free...no rights..

 

[Adjuster]

Joel, I was responding to Joe's thread response.

So, what your saying is the current USA is a better form of the Roman government? I'd agree with that actually. WE are a more free, technically advanced version of what was Rome.

Perhaps this is why the Moors hate us still? (Arabs/Islam)

Let's look at something.
If your ancestors were slaves, bought and brought here to work, and then gained your freedom to vote, work and live as anyone else in this great country, are you not pissing on their graves when you take away your hardwon freedom by going on the welfare dole? You may still be able to vote, and you might think your free, but really when your getting it all handed to you, your as free as my pet rabbit. (Waiting to be watered and fed each day, or he would surely die since he no longer can support himself.)

I'm saying to be truely free, and have some self respect, you have to work for your freedom, and earn it. (Fiscal and otherwise.)

 

[Joel W.]

ohh sry my bad..

 

[Greg55_99]

Sounds like this horse is floppin' pretty good. Let me address your premise Adjuster. In the past, limiting the right to vote (which is what you're talking about doing) has been a means to disenfranchise the poor and non-white citizens. Whether you say your solution is color blind, the result will be the same. That is, those who are poorest and minorities will have no representation. I suppose you see this as an inducement for them to either improve their lot in life or join the military to achieve the same end. Obviously, that's not always possible.

There are too many "what-if's" in what you propose. For example: What if I own stock in a corporation that owns land. By proxy, then do I have the right to vote? If so, would one share do the trick?

Or... What if I owned my own house for 50 years and voted, then retired, sold the house and moved into a Nursing home. Do I lose the right to vote since I no longer own land?

Or... What if I was a low down, no good real estate broke, bought 10 acres of land in Florida, and sold if off by the square inch to people that wanted to vote. Would one square inch of land do it?

You see, too many variables. That's why the right to vote has been protected all of these years and made available to all citizens. Limiting access to voting has ALWAYS been used to keep the prevailing group in power.

Greg

 

[Adjuster]

My idea is simple, why screw it up.

If you own the land you live on, you can vote. (This counts for condo's and apartments.)

If you are, or have been in the military you can vote even if you don't own land. (For life, you've earned it.)

The idea is colorblind as possible. It is also the only way we are going to save this country in my opinion. (Save it from the socialists who would like to see everyone the same in everything, but really having equal parts of nothing sounds pretty dull don't you think?)

These are the people who talk about "Life's Lottery" and make it sound like only the rich will ever be rich, and if your poor, your stuck there unless you win the lottery...
That is not what this country was built on, and now how it is in real life.

You can make yourself into anything you want in this country, and there are few like it in the world.

If you don't agree, I think you need to travel more. Go see the world for a few years, live in Iran, Saudi and Europe. Travel to India, Thailand and Singapore. See China in all three flavors. (Hongkong, Taiwan and the mainland where slave labor exists right now.) When you get back, let's debate on how you feel about the USA, and your rights and freedoms then.

 

[Greg55_99]

You can make yourself into anything you want in this country, and there are few like it in the world.

If you don't agree, I think you need to travel more. Go see the world for a few years, live in Iran, Saudi and Europe. Travel to India, Thailand and Singapore. See China in all three flavors. (Hongkong, Taiwan and the mainland where slave labor exists right now.) When you get back, let's debate on how you feel about the USA, and your rights and freedoms then.

Well, no I don't agree with you on this. I HAVE lived for 10 years of my adult life in Japan and Germany. I have traveled extensively through Asia, Europe, the Middle East, Austalia, the South Pacific and Canada. I thought we WERE debating on our rights and freedoms. We just have different opinions, that's all.

Greg

 

[Joel W.]

we need to add this icon to the list...

 

[lagged]

My idea is simple, why screw it up.

If you own the land you live on, you can vote. (This counts for condo's and apartments.)

If you are, or have been in the military you can vote even if you don't own land. (For life, you've earned it.)

The idea is colorblind as possible. It is also the only way we are going to save this country in my opinion. (Save it from the socialists who would like to see everyone the same in everything, but really having equal parts of nothing sounds pretty dull don't you think?)

These are the people who talk about "Life's Lottery" and make it sound like only the rich will ever be rich, and if your poor, your stuck there unless you win the lottery...
That is not what this country was built on, and now how it is in real life.

You can make yourself into anything you want in this country, and there are few like it in the world.

If you don't agree, I think you need to travel more. Go see the world for a few years, live in Iran, Saudi and Europe. Travel to India, Thailand and Singapore. See China in all three flavors. (Hongkong, Taiwan and the mainland where slave labor exists right now.) When you get back, let's debate on how you feel about the USA, and your rights and freedoms then.

haha wait wait, please correct me if i am wrong, are you saying that only people who own property should be able to vote? is that really what you are saying?

 

[drunk_medic]

haha wait wait, please correct me if i am wrong, are you saying that only people who own property should be able to vote? is that really what you are saying?

If you think about it, it makes sense. Owning land to live on shows that you care about the country enough to want to live here, to stick around, and to make a difference for the better. You value the damn place.

If you buy a car with your own money, you will be more likely to love and take care of it than if it was won or given to you for free.

 

[Joel W.]

ok so what happen whens korea, china, or japan, or germany or kuwait or some other country buys up all our land? just tossin ideas out...

 

[Greg55_99]

ok so what happen whens korea, china, or japan, or germany or kuwait or some other country buys up all our land? just tossin ideas out...

Well, if you're a Kuwaiti that owns a house in Palm Beach... I guess you can vote!:biglaugh:

Ali-Greg-Benaddam

 

[Joel W.]

ya i had that coming.. hahhahah

 

[drunk_medic]

That's ridiculous.

You have to be a citizen of the United States to vote.

 

[Adjuster]

Ok, you guys got me on that one.

US Citizen.
Landowner
Military service.

Pick any two, and your a voter in my system. (That I know has ZERO chance of ever returning, I was just saying it's a way to bring some reality back to politics in this country.)

Problem is, there are too many non land owners voting theselves wealth and a lazy lifestyle.

 

[Greg55_99]

That's ridiculous.

You have to be a citizen of the United States to vote.

EXACTLY! And that's ALL you have to be. Period!

Greg