MAFTpro tune problems

[ValgeKotkas]

At least I'm thinking those are MAFTpro related Though first one probably isnt- my idle is usually as high as 1-1.2k. What could be causing that?
I've gotten the idle to 600 though after I repaired the vacuum vsv's wires that's inline with my Afpr (and MAP sensor that didn't want to work precisely at that time, showed permanently 102), but I'm guessing that's not exactly it. Yesterday, for instance, it was at 1200 the whole evening till in the end when it was idling nicely at ~680. Wtf? (I read that the fpr must be set for the right idle - but could my fuel pump be going? My interior is off and I can hear the pump whining, especially the oscilliated (?) whine when I use other electrical components, like the blinkers for instance. How could I check those components?).

Second thing - my throttle response when in neutral is slow. Downshifts are almost not possible. When I give it too much gas (try to get it up faster), it has given me the CEL. (have 24(air temp, ok), 34(I got it boosting yesterday without leaks and hit fuel cut (I think?), till I kind of regulated the boost controller till I almost didn't anymore), 51 (?) codes stored).

Third - when accelerating fast it bogs a second and then launches after shifting and giving it gas. Maybe the fourth is related to it...

Fourth - after accelerating and putting it out of gear (same happens at the shifts when accelerating) the A/FR spikes up off into the 20's. I was thinking that that's normal, cause the engine doesn't use fuel to spin the crank round, but now I'm doubting...maybe the bog is because of that?

Edit: when WOT, it seems to run pretty rich 9.x-10.x. That's too much, isn't it? Again, somethings wrong?

I'm thinking that's it...
Setup: AFPR, 60.1 ct26 (at least the guy we recently bought the car from said it was ), 3" turboback exhaust, 3" intercooler pipes (some pieces are 2,5" ??), EGR intact, MAP is on the line of FPR with the VSV inline (is that ok??), IAT is on the intake manifold runner side.

Running 5.22 version.
Constants
------------------------------

MAP Enrichment 0.40
Freq In Mode 0
Vehicle Select 02
Number of Cylinders 6
Displacement 2.96 Liter
Airflow Source 0x00 Select
Manifold pressure source 00
Density Comp Source 0x00
Barometer Comp Mode 01
Frequency Out Mode 0x04
V Out1 Mode 0 Select
V Out2 Mode 0 Select
AFR Source 1 Select
Aux 1 mode 00
Main Scale 0.00
Volts Out 1 Setpoint 2.45
Volts Out 2 Setpoint 3.53
Afterstart enrichment 0.00
Tune Load Point, Low 36.40
Tune Load Point, Mid 100.10
Tune Load Point, High 143.00
Freq Out Max 0
Timing Monitor, Base Adjust 0.00
Timing Monitor, Correction 1.27
AFR Tracking, Enable delay 0.00 Seconds
Boost control TPS Spool 1.50
Boost control RPM Spool 1792 RPM
Boost control TPS Start 2.70 Volts
Boost control PSI Start 7.00 PSI
Boost control DC% Start 24.80 Percent
Boost control PSI Set 11.00 PSI
Boost control PSI Aux 0.00 PSI
Boost Control Gain 10.00
Boost Control DC% Start Aux 0.00 Percent
AFR Min TPS 3.00
AFR Min RPM 3488
AFR Min MAP 166.50
AFR correction lean limit 14.00
AFR correction rich limit 12.50
AFR correction gain 10.00
AFR Aux % 0.00
TPS Enrichment 0.50
TPS Decay 0.80
Throttle Body Size 7
MAP Decay 0.80
MAP TPS Max 0.50 Volts


------------------------------
Flags
------------------------------



------------------------------
Tables
------------------------------

AFR Tracking

AFR AFR
2000 3000 4000 5000 6000 7000 8000
A/F Ratio 11.50 11.50 11.50 11.50 11.50 11.50 11.50

Any else info needed?

Thanks a lot in advance,
JÜri

 

[CBatstone]

1. Where are you sourcing vacuum for your MAP sensor? Okay I see you are sourcing the MAP vacuum from a VSV line? If the VSV line is not (open/closed depending on its function) then your MAP sensor is not getting vacuum. I initially sourced my Power Steering Idle/Up VSV line and this caused me problems until the car warmed up, when idle would settle down. This is because the VSV was bleeding off the vacuum to the intake and so my MAP was not getting any vacuum source at all during this time and running very rich. If you go to sensor monitor page and monitor the MAP Pressure, ~100 with the car off, it should be around or under 40 when running. SO if you start the car and it doesnt drop then you will have issues and need to source a new vac line.

Your IAT sensor is in the intake runner? This might get heat soaked pretty easily causing you more problems. You'll need to monitor intake air temp to see how much it varies, I mounted mine as far away from the engine as I could but still in the bay, right next to where fresh air is drawn up to the air filter. You do not want big temperature variations on this sensor if possible.

You do not ever adjust fuel pressure for idle. Set it to Stock (40-45psi) You adjust your MAFTPRO Low-Load User tune or VE table for setting open loop cold start idle conditions. Then once the car warms up, ensure your Vf reading is bouncing between 1 and 3 volts, or holding steady perfect at 2 when the car is in closed loop. My new fuel pump makes more line noise than the stock one did, it sounds like a banging at idle that corresponds to the pulses of the fuel system, but there is no way your blinkers are linked.

Set your main scale for best drive ability at MID/WOT and then adjust your low load settings with user tunes.

2 & 3. Do you have a wideband meter? if your car is bogging it is likely either super rich or super lean. You need to tune the car to be running at the right AFR when you go to Wide Open Throttle. Remember that if you are tuning in the closed loop area (warm idle, low/mid load driving, most driving) you can only have minimal, temporary effects on the AFR because the TCCS computer is in control during this period. The best you can hope to achieve in closed loop is keeping the Vf voltage fluctuating between 1 and 3 volts, aiming for 2 in the 5-tier step. The car will show best driveability when this Vf goal is met.

4. It is normal for AFR's to go off the lean end when you let off the gas, you essentially are no longer putting any load on the engine and so instantly less fuel is needed.

5. WOT should be 11.5. 10.0 is safe but you are loosing lots of power, which is the reason you installed your Maft Pro to begin with.

6. Keep AFT Tracking off (set to impossible metrics) so that you are not trying to tune with this enabled.

Good Luck and Happy Tuning! Spend time with it and tune from rich to lean!

 

[ValgeKotkas]

Thanks!
1. I don't think that the stock fpr vsv is on/off, though I also don't know how it works. I was thinking about taking vacuum for MAP and AFPR from the big vacuum that runs to the steering pump, though now I don't know how the FPR would work as the stock one is rising rate dependable on boost = vacuum = why the vsv is needed, no? I also could uninstall the VSV but again, would it be ok for the AFPR?.
And my map gets 102 when the car is off and when I fire it up cold it starts off at about 50 and then goes down in time to 30-32. There's where it stays at idle. I mean sometimes I had the problem that it fires up and map shows the 102. Then I wiggled the wires (vsv and map, though) and it fired up nicely, though I wouldn't be sure that the wires are behind that. Has happened only a couple of times.

And for idle... Yesterday it magically staid at 680 at the end of the day (1200 the whole day) and I adjusted the vf to 2-3 with VE table. Yay

Adjusting FPR at idle - http://www.supramania.com/forums/showthread.php?129624-VE-table-tuning-Maft-pro What's up with this thread then, number 3. And the next guy doesn't say anything against it?

I didn't install the IAT, but I also think it's not the right place(in the middle of the manifold, just before it goes into 6 separate runners). On my old car it also was at the air intake hole. Though when I idle the temperatures are about 130. Driving 110-120 IIRC, so I don't think it heat soaks that much.


Yes I have a Innovative lc1. Soon to be changed to AEM, cause I don't like the adjusting crap. I've tuned the city-driving rpm/map yesterday with VE and got it to 1-3. so it's kinda ok probably now. Though that doesn't take the problem away as I'm in WOT and changing gears. I bog for a sec when giving gas in the next gear (lost to a tuned s13 silvia yesterday when testing ). I'll try to log it and put it up here today or so. Maybe we'll see something then.

I'm sure that the fuel pump isn't connected with everything else, but as it's a constant buzz when I don't have any other electrical things on, but when I touch the brakes when idling, it buzzes with other sound. When I put the blinkers in, it gives me an oscillating buzz. Go figure... I know someone from the previous owners wired some shit in, cause just yesterday my car shut off and gave me a big cloud of smoke from behind the dash (wires fried). Also a DIY wire underneath my feet went into flames. Luckily no interior, so at least nothing else was lit on fire. I'll tear the dash apart and see what those wires were, cause when I traced the wires to the wires and plugs they went to and disconnected them, the car shut off.

AF rations to 0 instead of 11.5? (It wasnt me was from the previous owner)

The problem that it doesn't want to rev in neutral and when cruising and putting it in neutral the revs don't want to go down can't be connected with maft-pro, or? Cause it's ok when we're in gear...

 

[GrimJack]

Actually, he's right, the stock FPR VSV is on or off. On hot starts, it switches the FPR vacuum signal from manifold pressure to ambient pressure, which increases the fuel pressure for a short period of time to avoid heat soak boiling fuel in the rail. Depending on where you tapped into this line, you might be getting ambient pressure to the MAP on hot starts, which would make the car think it was getting a lot more air.

Does the IAT temp spike when the car is stopped in traffic? If so, it's heat soaking, and you're likely going to need a better spot for it. I'd rather see it post intercooler though, and actually in the manifold should give you the most accurate readings as long as you can keep it from heat soaking. Initially I put mine in the intercooler pipe where the 3000 pipe used to be, and got way too much heat soak, now it's in the intercooler pipe cold side, near the front of the bay.

The code 51 you mentioned... was that at idle, with the AC turned off? Code 51 isn't stored, so if it's showing up with the accessories turned off and without any throttle, the TPS is either incorrectly adjusted or toast. That could have a lot to do with your idle inconsistencies.

 

[ValgeKotkas]

Interesting on the VSV, so it's actually kinda needed, thanks Only I've never had this problem on HOT starts. Always when cold starting in the morning (previous evening everything was fine).

This is my setup. T that goes to fpr and map is after the vsv. You can see the IAT.

IAT would heat-spike how? I mean when I'm stopped then the intercooler isn't getting airflow anymore = it gets hotter, shouldn't that give an already nice spike? Or would it spike from getting stopped and then after some time spike again from the hot motor?

I tried the codes without starting the car and the AC/ECON buttons weren't pressed. Should I check in some other way before checking/switching the TPS?

Thanks a lot!

 

[GrimJack]

Yup, that's definitely going to cause issues on hot starts. In theory, it should run rather rich when you start it hot... of course, the funny thing about that is it's designed to run rich on COLD starts, too. Furthermore, if that VSV ever fails, and it happens to fail in the wrong position, your adjustable FPR will become non-adjustable AND your maft unit will think there's ambient pressure in the manifold all the time. That could suck.

As for the temp spike, around here I get average 70-80F cruising. At stoplights, this will slowly creep up to 110+, I've seen it as high as 150. As soon as I start moving again, this will drop back down to 70-80. The temperature when it creeps up isn't indicative of the actual temp in the manifold - what's happening is the intercooler pipe and IAT sensor are absorbing heat from the engine bay and distorting the readings to artificially high. When I had the sensor mounted above the valve covers, it was much worse. To be honest, the way I solve this is to not push the car hard when it's been stuck in traffic. Instead, I wait for the temps to stabilize after I get moving again, then I know the system is working optimally. I'm not too worried about whether it's running lean or rich when I'm at 10% throttle, I don't think there's enough pressure in there to do any damage even if it does detonate at that level.

Admittedly, the IC isn't getting any airflow, however, idling around in traffic, the turbo isn't really compressing the air either, so there's not a lot of excess heat to bleed off in the first place.

You're checking codes correctly, and the 51 should not show up under those conditions. It should only show 51 if the accelerator is depressed or the AC is on. As soon as the throttle goes back to zero and the AC is off, the code 51 should disappear. If it doesn't, try the adjustment procedure in the TSRM first. Failing that, replace the TPS. With the code 51 on all the time, the ECU thinks you're never at zero throttle.

 

[ValgeKotkas]

Hmm, interesting on the VSV then. What should I do with it, if it could cause so much trouble when failing (though now IIRC, when my map showed ambient pressure then when I wiggled the wires I saw that the FPR saw pressure (~2bar). Maybe it's something with the Map...).

For the IAT, I've neer seen such temperatures. When giving some gas, they go to ~100, but IIRC not lower (~70F outside). Would have to double check.

What means throttle to 0 ? Cause when I look into the sensormonitor and the throttle pedal isnt't pressed, it shows 0.48-0.49 V. I remember reading that that was ok from the maft Quickstart manual or something? Or those two aren't related?
I'll go check the sensor THanks!

 

[GrimJack]

For my MAP, I just T'd into that big line with the bend in it directly to the manifold - the one on the front.

Sounds like you're not seeing heat soak on your IAT sensor at all, which is awesome.

Throttle to zero just means foot off, so the throttle plate is closed. You'll still get some reading on the MAFT display, that's ok. The MAFT is monitoring the TPS voltage, the code 51 comes from the on / off switch that closes as soon as you move the throttle plate away from completely closed. So, like you said, two different things, although they are both contained in the TPS.

 

[ValgeKotkas]

Drove today and looked at the IAT. Cruising ~80, standing they go up to 130. If I start moving and give a bit more throttle it goes ~105 quite fast. So... heat soak?
Turbobob advised to put the map on the same vacuum as the FPR, so they see the same, wonder how important that is? Next time it doesn't want to start I'll try pulling vacuum from the source you mentioned, we'll see what whill happen.
Oh, and today it again didn't want to start. Wiggled the wires...nothing, changed the map sensor...nothing. Gave it some gas ~3.5k rpm irrc and it started working...

AFR tracking set to 0. Though that didn't change anything overally IMO.

Tomorrow morning will check on the TPS. Hope that that will solve my problems

 

[ValgeKotkas]

Got the TPS in spec with TSRM, no code 51 anymore. First idle was ~550, when I drove a little it idles at ~810 and that's not right. Also still bogs on fast shift. Also hesitates when revved in neutral to about 3k I think.
What should I do? Try change the TPS (now the tps has blue cover, the other one has red cover... do they need to stay on their own TB's?) or should it be fine now? Or maybe it needs better adjustment?

E: searched a bit here and found out that if TPS is in spec and no codes are coming up then everything should be ok. I'll go check other components, like the isc and other EFI stuff

 

[ValgeKotkas]

Cleaned the isc, at first cold start the idle started fluctuating between 1000-1300 then after driving some it was at 1200 and then started going down and down till at the end of the day it was at ~800-900 again. Even the cold start idle is usually at about 900. 38psi of fuel pressure.
One interesting thing - when cold started and driven in first gear (maybe it was in second too) and ALMOST no throttle applied it jerks back and forth like crazy. That isn't normal though?
When driven and gears are changed (clutch being pressed, throttle not pressed), it first throws the rpms up a bit and then they slowly go down (just like the ford I drive ) That sucks. I searched and one guy had this problem, after maft install, but the thread is unanswered ofcourse

E: probably isn't related to my problems but as I looked through the TSRM EFI pages I noticed talk about spark plugs, so I thought I'd check mine. Nice NGK Iridium IX series, but 11, gapped at about 1.1mm :S That gap is for N/A. Changed them out to the same spark plugs I had around, only gapped at TSRM turbovar specs, .8mm. We'll see what maybe happens now.
Though the old spark plugs look ok to me?

 

[GrimJack]

With all the fixes you've applied, it might be worthwhile to reset the ECU so it can relearn. It's probably learned really odd settings with the TPS out of spec and the ISC dirty...

 

[ValgeKotkas]

One coil was corroded out also. Can´t remember though whether it was connected with the plug that`s also corroded out or something. Could it be?

Reset the ECU as in pull the negative battery cable for some time?

TOday was reading the TSRM. Would it be right to adjust the FPR per TSRM FI page 72 ? To the highest specs maybe?

 

[GrimJack]

Not sure what you mean by corroded out... if there is something wrong with a coil or lead, I'd replace it for sure.

I just pull the EFI fuse from the engine fusebox for a couple minutes... that way I don't have to setup my radio presets again.

Personally, I've always used the FPR range to get my idle perfect.

 

[ValgeKotkas]

Ignition should be ok now. ECU reset, but problems are there. ~850 idle and bogging when flying. +B and Fp connected the FP was 42psi. WIthout vacuum at idle 46 and with vacuum 37. Those look ok?


In addition to bogging -
I hit fuel cut pretty often, I wonder why, cause my boost settings are pretty low IMO. Though what the previous owner hasn't deinstalled is the AFM (just unplugged). Wonder if that's a major restriction that could play a role in this game of problems I have?

E: deinstalled the AFM and looked at it... no restriction at all I guess... Now just need a piece of pipe there instead.
How to conservate AFM? Can they go bad from just sitting? (I got one bad one once that came from a running car but lyed in basement for a year and went bad).
Lowered the FP with terminals connected to 40, max per Book. 43/34 at idle.

 

[ValgeKotkas]

Idle pulsation dampner on this car -

On other car -

Is the first one "wrong"? or what does that screw do at all?

Why am I hitting fuel cut with code 34- abnormal boost pressure all the time? It's max 12 psi that I'm seeing... Walbro is pumping enough, the AFR's are nicely at 11.x

 

[GrimJack]

12 psi on a 60-1 ct is a SHITLOAD of air. More than enough to hit boost cut, that's for sure.

 

[ValgeKotkas]

Would there be a possibility to prevent that? Limiting in Maft some signals that are sent, there is enough fuel...or at least I think so?
(idk how the previous owner ran the car but the boostcontroller was set on 15psi...)

That bog on shifts is the fuel cut, comes in just as I'm starting to accelerate in next gear...

 

[JimR]

I'd plot your Freq Out alongside your boost pressure and tps values. If the Freq out gets much over 1500mhz (or 1700, the exact number eludes me and there are other variables too) then fuel cut is very likely. I do not recommend capping it. The risk of detonation is high and you can always tune it out.

Maftpro Response Fuel settings maybe? Do you have anything that would add a bunch more air (to make the tccs add a bunch more fuel) on throttle opening? See the Maftpro manual on that.

P.S. Fuel cut right after a shift is really common.

---------- Post added at 09:32 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:24 PM ----------

Response settings....

Specifically: 'MAP Enrichment' and 'Boost Enrichment'.

I see your TPS Enrichment is set to 0.5, which should be ok.

 

[ValgeKotkas]

Was reading yesterday fullthrottletech the whole day and was also thinking on trying the responses out. The cut after shift sucks hard, ruins everything Looks like I can't shift.

I'm now trying 10psi on boost, though it still cuts almost the same but the interesting part is that sometimes it doesn't (was same with previous boost). I remember once going just WOT, it didn't cut. But when it was "played" into boost (rpms easily to about 3500 and then full throttle) it cutted very hard. That should be exactly that response-tuning problem?

Going to try this today (reset my VE table and will try tuning as in post number 2 on here and Bob's suggestions+ raised the boost enrichment a bit, maybe will help agains FC at shift):

SCALAR: Vehicle Select 02
SCALAR: Number of Cylinders 6
SCALAR: Displacement 2.96 Liter
SCALAR: Airflow Source 0x00 Select
SCALAR: Manifold pressure source 00
SCALAR: Load Source 0x00
SCALAR: Barometer Comp Mode 01
SCALAR: Frequency Out Mode 0x04
SCALAR: V Out1 Mode 0 Select
SCALAR: V Out2 Mode 0 Select
SCALAR: AFR Source 1 Select
SCALAR: Freq In Mode 0
SCALAR: Aux 1 mode 00
SCALAR: Main Scale 0.00
SCALAR: Volts Out 1 Limit 2.45 volts
SCALAR: Volts Out 2 Limit 3.53 volts
SCALAR: Afterstart enrichment 0.00
SCALAR: Tune Load Point, Low 36.40
SCALAR: Tune Load Point, Mid 100.10
SCALAR: Tune Load Point, High 143.00
SCALAR: Freq Out Max 0
SCALAR: Timing Monitor, Base Adjust 0.00
SCALAR: Timing Monitor, Correction 1.27
SCALAR: FE Smoothing 00
SCALAR: Boost control TPS Spool 1.50
SCALAR: Boost control RPM Spool 2016 RPM
SCALAR: Boost control TPS Start 2.60 Volts
SCALAR: Boost control PSI Start 6.00 PSI
SCALAR: Boost control DC% Start 24.80 Percent
SCALAR: Boost control PSI Set 10.00 PSI
SCALAR: Boost control PSI Aux 10.00 PSI
SCALAR: Boost Control Gain 10.00
SCALAR: Boost Control DC% Start Aux 50.00 Percent
SCALAR: Boost Control Max RPM 6720.00
SCALAR: AFR Min TPS 5.10
SCALAR: AFR Min RPM 3488
SCALAR: AFR Min Load 166.50
SCALAR: AFR correction lean limit 14.00
SCALAR: AFR correction rich limit 12.50
SCALAR: AFR correction gain 10.00
SCALAR: AFR Aux % 0.00
SCALAR: AFR Tracking, Enable delay 0.00 Seconds
SCALAR: TPS Enrichment 0.40
SCALAR: TPS Decay 0.60
SCALAR: Throttle Body Size 7
SCALAR: TPS MAP Max 98.86
SCALAR: MAP Enrichment 0.40
SCALAR: Boost Enrichment 1.00
SCALAR: MAP TPS Min 0.50 Volts
SCALAR: MAP RPM Min 2304.00
SCALAR: MAF Limit TPS Threshold 0.00 Volts
SCALAR: MAF Limit 0.00
SCALAR: MAF Limit / KRPM 0.00 Grams/Sec
SCALAR: MAF Limit RPM Min 0.00 RPM
SCALAR: MAF Limit Time 0.00 seconds
SCALAR: OffIdle Enrichment 10.00
SCALAR: Part Throttle Tracking Idle TPS 0.00
SCALAR: Part Throttle Tracking Idle RPM 0.00
SCALAR: Part Throttle Tracking Idle A/F Ratio 0.00
SCALAR: Part Throttle Tracking Cruise TPS 0.00
SCALAR: Part Throttle Tracking Cruise RPM 0.00
SCALAR: Part Throttle Tracking Cruise Load 0.00
SCALAR: Part Throttle Tracking Cruise A/F Ratio 0.00
SCALAR: Part Throttle Tracking Lean Load 0.00
SCALAR: Part Throttle Tracking Lean Delay 0.00
SCALAR: Part Throttle Tracking Lean A/F Ratio 0.00
SCALAR: Part Throttle Tracking Gain 0.00
SCALAR: Part Throttle Tracking Startup Delay 0.00 Percent
SCALAR: Enhanced TPS RPM threshold 0.00
SCALAR: Enhanced TPS Load Threshold 0.00 KPA
SCALAR: Enhanced TPS Gain 0.00 KPA