Lopey idle, sometimes stalling, after 550/Lex mods

SideWinderGX

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Bought 6 used Mazda Rx-7 injectors from rx7club.com, two from three different people. Two came flow tested at 570 ish cc, the other four I had flow tested and came to 670 cc (I attribute it to being a cheap ass shop...they probably use a fluid with a different specific weight than gasoline). They were the exact same part numbers stamped on the injectors...no way I bought four funky ones from two different people.

I took off upper IC pipes, nearby vacuum lines, three banjo bolts for the fuel rail, and the coolant line going to the ISCV. My Dad pinched that coolant line off with vice grips so it wouldn't leak...line is still good. Did not take the TB/TPS/ISCV off, I have skinny hands. Lubed the o-rings and seats up with a dab of 5W30 oil, took the old ones out, shoved the new ones in, connected everything including LIPP AFM. Took three tries to fire up but it ran like a champ for a wee bit.

After a while it would start stumbling...the idle would lope ~50 rpm up and down, wouldn't stay steady, sounded 'bumbly' and smelled pretty rich.

Skipping forward, I'm tired of typing:

-Drives relatively fine at speed. Won't stall at speed. Vacuum levels on my AEM Tru-Boost read lower than before (usually at 65 mph with 0 throttle, it would be -21 or -22 downhill, now is -19 ish). Car pulls fine at speed. Vacuum levels are also lower at idle or low speed than they should be, but only by a few. Sprayed carb cleaner around the injectors, no noticeable pickup. Sprayed water and looked for mist, nothing. Took the line off of the brake booster going to the intake manifold, pressurized up to ~10 psi with and without throttle open, couldn't find anything and was very thorough over by the EGR valve. Checked IC pipes and intake for leaks, nothing. Started loping worse at idle...~100 to ~200 up and down, occasionally stalls on the downswing. Getting harder to start....very lopey and rich, but would smooth out with accelerator and a few seconds. Now stalls occasionally slowing down for a stop sign or red light...will lope, car will jerk forward on the upswing (obviously) and eventually either stall on the downswing or even out.

Checked codes...three: o2 sensor, coolant temp sensor, boost pressure. Fixed the o2 sensor wiring properly (never depinned connectors before, eesh), bought a new coolant temp sensor. Swapped in my old AFM electronics box...no difference. Haven't had much time to drive it since, as every time I start it it lopes up and down and stalls within a few seconds. I can get it to drive if I want to by brake boosting a tiiiiiny bit to get it into drive and get the car going. Once I get up the street the stalling symptoms go away.

As it sits now: lopey idle upon starting most of the time, hot or cold, usually stalls promptly. Once I get driving the symptoms mostly go away but occasional stalling and lopey idle at low speed occurs. Exhaust smells pretty rich sometimes (no cat).




Sorry for the wall of text, I wanted to be thorough. If I had to guess I'd say I'd check the resistance values for the TPS and ISCV to make sure they're good, but it seems odd they'd break RIGHT after I install the injectors and AFM. And AFAIK the wires and connectors are good, but I obviously can't see into the harness itself so if it's broken down the line I guess it sucks to be me.

Any ideas? :icon_razz
 
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supra90turbo

shaeff is FTMFW!
Mar 30, 2005
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sooo... wait...

Even though 4 injectors flowed 670cc at the shop where you don't trust the employees, you didn't get them re-tested at a reputable shop?
You installed them anyway, and don't know why the car runs poorly?


Am I missing something?
 

I6Boost

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Well i can tell you one thing a few 570 flowing and the others flowing 670...
Its not going to idle nor run perfect at all...

Theres a post about venom injectors and my buddy had bought them a long time ago,
almost identical symptoms you are having, and most likely the reason they are banned on this
forum for classified selling...

Have you tried going back to the 440's and stock afm to see if it fixes anything?

supra90turbo;1555667 said:
sooo... wait...

Even though 4 injectors flowed 670cc at the shop where you don't trust the employees, you didn't get them re-tested at a reputable shop?
You installed them anyway, and don't know why the car runs poorly?


Am I missing something?

Ahh you beat me to it lol...

But yea i also agree with this guy, IF you dont trust a shop nor there work
why go there?!?!

Goto a reputable shop as he aforementioned and have them flow tested again, IF
they are 570 and 670 still junk them or re-sell and get actual 550's/580's....

I mean hell mise well go with venom injectors lol...
 

SideWinderGX

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I bought all 6 injectors from rx7club. All 6 injectors are exactly the same, guaranteed. All 6 injectors came off of Turbo RX7's. Flow testing the injectors just ensures that they aren't stuck/shitty/garbage...that they flow similar to the other injectors. All four flowed within 1% of each other. The high flow numbers can be attributed to using a lighter weight fluid.

I went there because I called up someone who has experience with a few Supra's in the area, and he said I can go to this place no problem, blablabla.

No, I won't be going back there, don't worry ;)

I plan on checking the ISCV thoroughly tomorrow morning as well as checking the resistances of the ISCV and TPS (doubt that the TPS would cause this, but couldn't hurt to check to see if it's in spec).
 
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I6Boost

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SideWinderGX;1555678 said:
I bought all 6 injectors from rx7club. All 6 injectors are exactly the same, guaranteed. All 6 injectors came off of Turbo RX7's. Flow testing the injectors just ensures that they aren't stuck/shitty/garbage...that they flow similar to the other injectors. All four flowed within 1% of each other. The high flow numbers can be attributed to using a less viscous fluid.

I went there because I called up someone who has experience with a few Supra's in the area, and he said I can go to this place no problem, blablabla.

No, I won't be going back there, don't worry ;)

I plan on checking the ISCV thoroughly tomorrow morning as well as checking the resistances of the ISCV and TPS (doubt that the TPS would cause this, but couldn't hurt to check to see if it's in spec).

Lol just cause four of them flow identical doesn't mean having different flowing injectors is ok...
And since they all flowed within 1% of each other then its obvious you got sold wrong injectors
or something? this whole thing is kinda confusing...

&& on the ISC aspect, have you checked the TSRM? After turning off the engine do you hear a clicking
noise coming from the engine bay? It easier to have a friend listen but you can hear it from inside.

2 people sold you four 670cc flowing injectors correct? and the other person
sold you 2 570ish cc flowing injectors?

What about the other 2 injectors?
 

SideWinderGX

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The injectors had the part number stamped on the side of them. All 6 are original Denso injectors...they are 100% the correct injectors :)

2 were sold to be already flow tested with new grommets and the like. The flow test sheet showed 576 cc for both I believe.

The other 4 were not flow tested prior to purchase...I brought them someplace to be flow tested. Knowing that all 6 are EXACTLY the same brand/part number injector, it makes absolutely no sense that four injectors (bought from two different people on opposite sides of the country) would flow that much differently than two other injectors, but yet they flow within a few % of each other (the four and the two, respectively). I attribute it to a different fluid being used.

If all 6 injectors were put on the same machine, I would bet that they'd flow within a few percent of each other...flow rates depending on the fluid of course. Should I make this assumption? No, it's stupid to do...but on the other hand, if the assumption is wrong, either the 2/6 injectors or 4/6 injectors are junk, and that's impossible.

Also, if the injectors were bad, it wouldn't idle good half the time then idle bad, or even get progressively worse. I at first thought one of the injector seats wasn't seated, but ruled that out as I sprayed carb cleaner around them on two different occasions.


edit: I don't know if I'm tired and am only reading half of your post, or if you're ninja-editing haha, sorry. First, I personally believe that it's not the injectors, although criticism of my thinking process is very much welcome. Secondly, I've done a bit of searching about the ISCV (per the TSRM/SM/SF) and will check the clicking tomorrow, I didn't think of it while I was outside. I have the page open to where the resistance values are, so I'll check those.

One thing I found (on SF, dated a while back actually) someone had my exact symptoms...said something about the ECU having to re-learn how the AFM functions. He drove something like 130 miles and it seemed to just go away. I'll be driving back to college tomorrow so I guess I'll find out, but I won't hold my breath.
 

SideWinderGX

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I won't take advice that doesn't make sense. You're welcome to explain to me how 2 injectors from person x and 2 injectors from person y are broken but flow exactly the same, and flow differently from 2 injectors from person z which flowed well...when all 6 injectors are the same part number. The chances that four injectors are broken in exactly the same way to flow exactly the same is so infinitesimally small it can be ignored.

Injectors can only be CLEANED. All 6 were cleaned. They are now operating at, or very close to, stock specs. The only way this can change is through fuel pressure. No way all four are bad but are operating at such close flow rates.

I hate to argue with so many people, but the injectors are not the problem. I'll just end up taking them out, wasting more time, waste more money to have them tested, and waste more time putting them back in because they're fine.

If there was something wrong with the injectors my problems would have been the same since day one. They have not been, in fact, for an hour or two the car ran perfect.



edit: Geez, I'll call up the place tomorrow and ask what fluid they use. Some easy calculations later we can see what it flows compared to the 2 that were flowed previously.
 
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supra90turbo

shaeff is FTMFW!
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It's simple problem solving. The car runs poorly when you installed your brand new used 20 year old injectors. Get them flow tested. Oh, wait, you did, and 4 are 100cc/min higher! But you say, nah, they're stupid at that shop, and install them anyway.

I'm not trying to argue, but when I make a suggestion, it's not for nothing. I'm not a moron, and I don't think that your assumption of the shop using a different weight fluid than gasoline is viable.

You asked, we answered. Good luck.
 

SideWinderGX

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Mazda RX-7s have 2 primary and 2 secondary injectors...2 550cc, 2 850cc IIRC. Not many people have 6 550cc injectors...it's like someone on here having 18 440cc injectors :p

Supra90turbo: not calling you stupid, don't worry. But you should read what I write: there is NO POSSIBLE WAY four injectors, from two different cars, are broken in EXACTLY the same way to flow within 1% of each other. The only way they are flowing so high is because the shop used a different fluid than they should have.

Going outside in a sec to check ISCV...

edit: OK, my memory is shitty I guess. Dug out the flow test sheet: 642 636 624 624. Not ~670 like I thought. They open at 10, I'll call and ask about fluid then.





edit2: B1 - S1: 27 ohms
B1 - S3: 26 ohms
B2 - S2: 26 ohms
B2 - S4: 26 ohms

This is with the engine cold. Tried to start the car...it took an extra, say, half second to turn over...but it's outside purring like a kitten. Idling at a hair under 1500 rpm, vacuum reads -15. Starting to idle down as I type this sentence. Waiting for something to mess up again.
 
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Kai

That Limey Bastard
Staff member
How do you know they flowtested them improperly? Did you watch them do it? For peace of mind, to rule them out, just get them done again. I have a set of 550cc RC's here that i got flowtested anyway, before i installed them in the fuel rail. If they had shown a discrepancy, i wouldn't have trusted them. Distrust the injectors, not the shop.
 

SideWinderGX

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It idled down from 1500 to 1100 ish and sat there, vacuum reading was -16 or -17. Fiddled with the vacuum hose to the ISCV, nothing. Got out a pair of pliers, pulled the clamp off, pulled the hose off...car died, sounded like the ISCV had a rotor inside of it that stopped spinning and it clicked a few times.

Checked the line, connected the hose and clamp, started the car back up. Jumpy idle, from 550-900 rpm I'd say. 5 or 10 seconds later it evened itself out, and it idled at 700-750 rpm, vacuum -17, for about 5 minutes or so no problems.

Kai;1555881 said:
How do you know they flowtested them improperly? Did you watch them do it? For peace of mind, to rule them out, just get them done again. I have a set of 550cc RC's here that i got flowtested anyway, before i installed them in the fuel rail. If they had shown a discrepancy, i wouldn't have trusted them. Distrust the injectors, not the shop.

Kai, thanks for posting :)

I just called them up...they use heptane in the machines to flow test them. According to this website: http://www.simetric.co.uk/si_liquids.htm the specific weight of gasoline is 737.22 (units don't matter as long as they're the same, they cancel out), sw of heptane is 679.50.

(679.50/737.22)*624 cc/min = 575 cc/min. The 642 cc/min injector comes in at 592 I believe. Now all 6 are within 4% of each other.

If it comes down to it, I'll remove the injectors and swap in the old ones/have the 550s all checked again by a different shop...but I want to exhaust all other options first.




edit1: ISCV measurements when the car is warm are also good. What is supposed to happen when you take the plug off of the ISCV when the car is running, cold or hot? When you remove it prior to starting the car? The car runs the same whether the ISCV is plugged in or not...if it's running good it'll stay good, if it's loping it'll stay loping.
 
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SideWinderGX

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Symptoms have been on and off since then, but more off. It drives beautifully now that I fixed the O2 sensor. Which leads us to today:

Went to start the car to drive a block down the road to the gym (haha, ironic) and it wouldn't start. Key in on position, CEL is on...good. Lights are good. Tach won't move during cranking. Walked to the gym, and when I came back I figured I'd wiggle the CPS wires and check spark. Wiggling the wires got it to fire up, although it was still a rough idle. Guess I wiggled something too much when repinning the O2 sensor.

Yes, I'm searching right now about symptoms/how to fix the CPS wiring problem, but I'd like feedback on it anyways: would the CPS wiring be the cause of my crappy idling, or just this one instance of not starting? I'm thinking the latter.
 

Nick M

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SideWinderGX;1555602 said:
no way I bought four funky ones from two different people.

Ignoring the rest of the post, you better believe people will sell mismatched garbage.

SideWinderGX;1555703 said:
You're welcome to explain to me how 2 injectors from person x and 2 injectors from person y are broken but flow exactly the same, and flow differently from 2 injectors from person z which flowed well...

I am sure Obama can give a legitmate sounding solution.

SideWinderGX;1555876 said:
.it's like someone on here having 18 440cc injectors :p

I have 12 440cc injectors, and 6 550.

You have to realize, based on the information you provided, which is 2 flow at one rate, 4 at a significantly higher rate, then that is the first thing to be addressed. I suggest a lesson in "gasoline" along with octane, heptane, cetane, etc.

http://www.faqs.org/faqs/autos/gasoline-faq/part1/

One other thing, changing the AFM will never get rid of DTC 34. Only fixing the intake leak that causes overboost of the turbo.
 

SideWinderGX

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Nick M;1557513 said:
Ignoring the rest of the post, you better believe people will sell mismatched garbage.

As I stated MULTIPLE times, the part number is stamped on the side of the injector.

d1955002020.jpg


See the small red protruding rectangle directly above the big black letters? Part number. I'm pretty sure they didn't torch off the old part number and stamp a new one in, big boy.

I am sure Obama can give a legitmate sounding solution.

Congratulations, I hope you feel secure with yourself now that you inserted a political joke into your post. Keep your political bullshit out of my thread, there is no place for it here.

I have 12 440cc injectors, and 6 550.

And?

You have to realize, based on the information you provided, which is 2 flow at one rate, 4 at a significantly higher rate, then that is the first thing to be addressed. I suggest a lesson in "gasoline" along with octane, heptane, cetane, etc.

http://www.faqs.org/faqs/autos/gasoline-faq/part1/

You have to realize that the flow rates of gasoline and heptane at the same pressure will be different. A basic lesson in fluid dynamics will learn you some stuff.

Also, http://www.witchhunter.com/testerror1.php4 . Go read.

One other thing, changing the AFM will never get rid of DTC 34. Only fixing the intake leak that causes overboost of the turbo.

I changed out the AFM in the hopes that it would cure the weird idling/starting issues. The consensus is that the AFM is either good or bad, but hey, I had the part lying around and wanted to remove as many possibilities as possible.

Fuel cut will trigger 34 as well, which is what I was hitting before on the stock injectors. Which is not an intake leak.



So, in conclusion: you've provided absolutely no help and have the demeanor of a self-righteous douchebag who assumes too much. Thanks for playing!
 

Nick M

Black Rifles Matter
Sep 9, 2005
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SideWinderGX;1557552 said:
You have to realize that the flow rates of gasoline and heptane at the same pressure will be different. A basic lesson in fluid dynamics will learn you some stuff.

I changed out the AFM in the hopes that it would cure the weird idling/starting issues. The consensus is that the AFM is either good or bad, but hey, I had the part lying around and wanted to remove as many possibilities as possible.

Fuel cut will trigger 34 as well, which is what I was hitting before on the stock injectors. Which is not an intake leak.

34 triggers fuel cut, not the other way around. Maybe you should just swap to a "1j" as the ricers call it. That will fix your problem. If not, be sure to buy a coil pack and switch that one, since buying parts that are not known to be bad work for you. Have with your stalling car that you don't know how to fix. :)
 

I6Boost

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SideWinderGX;1557552 said:
As I stated MULTIPLE times, the part number is stamped on the side of the injector.

d1955002020.jpg


See the small red protruding rectangle directly above the big black letters? Part number. I'm pretty sure they didn't torch off the old part number and stamp a new one in, big boy.



Congratulations, I hope you feel secure with yourself now that you inserted a political joke into your post. Keep your political bullshit out of my thread, there is no place for it here.



And?



You have to realize that the flow rates of gasoline and heptane at the same pressure will be different. A basic lesson in fluid dynamics will learn you some stuff.

Also, http://www.witchhunter.com/testerror1.php4 . Go read.



I changed out the AFM in the hopes that it would cure the weird idling/starting issues. The consensus is that the AFM is either good or bad, but hey, I had the part lying around and wanted to remove as many possibilities as possible.

Fuel cut will trigger 34 as well, which is what I was hitting before on the stock injectors. Which is not an intake leak.



So, in conclusion: you've provided absolutely no help and have the demeanor of a self-righteous douchebag who assumes too much. Thanks for playing!

I have absolutley no clue as of why your throwing a big hissy fit?
We are trying to help, and nick is of all people...

He blantley told you that people "will" and have no problem selling mismatched
things since in various posts the whole time your like "OMG no way they sold me differenet stuff! they wouldnt do that to me".

Then he just made a simple politic joke and you throw a little tantrum, lighten up man seriously...

And my favorite of all in the bold...
Where and what post did nick say anything along the lines of:
"Im pretty sure"
"I assume"
"I think"

NONE.

So take you diaper off.

He hasn't insulted you what so ever and gave nothing but helpful information...

&& To top everything off, your basicly calling everyone idiots, nick a self-righteous douchebag etc etc
but YET your the one asking for help lmao? I dont understand...

If your not going to listen, dont ask.
 

D7MSupra

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Apr 6, 2008
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Is your BOV recirculating back into your intake like its supposed to>? If an injector was stuck closed or not flowing right you would feel it skipping under anykind of hard acceleration. You have some sort of leak in your intake behind the afm or a bad vaccum leak somewhere on your intake manifold since your were messing around the fuel rail.