adding second oil cooler

[supraguru05]

my current setup is as follows.

earls billet oil filter adapter on the block
perma cool spin on filter mount
mocal oil thermostat
b&m 11X8 oil cooler
all -10 lines

the cooler filter and themostat are all locaed on the passenger side to keep line length down. this offseason im adding a 11X11 b&m cooler on the passenger side in a atempt to keep myoil temps down. my concern is that all this line will be to much restriction for the stock pump to handle and that ill start to lose oil flow. i currently run 0w-30 german castrol. oil temps hit 250 at putnam when it was 70 degrees outside. motor is a rebuilt 7mge with all the turbo stuff on it.

just wondering your opinon on how the stock pump will handle this

 

[jdub]

1st of all - Where are you reading oil temps at...i.e. the feed line to the cooler, the return line from the cooler, or at a block location?

What kind of oil temp gauge?

What is your pressure at idle and at 3000 RPM?

Is the oil pump relief valve shimmed for more pressure?

What is "putnam"?

 

[supraguru05]

1st of all - Where are you reading oil temps at...i.e. the feed line to the cooler, the return line from the cooler, or at a block location?

What kind of oil temp gauge?

What is your pressure at idle and at 3000 RPM?

Is the oil pump relief valve shimmed for more pressure?

What is "putnam"?

crappy megan racing oil temp gauge

measured at the filter soon to be moved to the oil pan

yes its shimmed

putnam is a road course this is a nasa/autocross car. the oil temps have been a problem for two years now even on stock boost levels. they get above 250 towards the end of a 20 minute session. twins turbo runs two giant oil coolers on both their FD and mk4 supra and im pretty sure i need two at this point. especially if i try to run at 10-11 psi.

 

[IJ.]

250 is way too high

Normally I'd have Oil Temp follow coolant temp +10>15f at most if possible for a circuit engine.

 

[jdub]

Ok..."measured at the filter" doesn't tell me squat...I have no idea how your filter/cooler circuit is routed.
One more time, is that pre-cooler or post cooler temps.

Temps at the pan are going to be higher...that is a pre-cooler temp...kinda the whole point here.

And, you didn't tell me your pressures like I asked either.

Not trying to be a dick here, but you can't expect me to help you unless you answer what I ask.

 

[supraguru05]

Ok..."measured at the filter" doesn't tell me squat...I have no idea how your filter/cooler circuit is routed.
One more time, is that pre-cooler or post cooler temps.

Temps at the pan are going to be higher...that is a pre-cooler temp...kinda the whole point here.

And, you didn't tell me your pressures like I asked either.

Not trying to be a dick here, but you can't expect me to help you unless you answer what I ask.

k easy jdub i accidently skipped the rpm question. the psi at 3000 rpms depends on the oil temp

cold its really high 60ish (never run the car with cold oil)

warm its 40ish and generally my pressures are 40-45 hot at the track at WOT above 4000 rpms. never had a pressure problem. i do have a 20psi warning light installed that i turn on once i enter the track.

my setup is as follows

block to filter
filter to thermostat then splits to cooler or back to the block depending on temps

so its taken at the filter housing so it should be close to oil pan temps. and is pre cooler. but if im rejecting heat out of the bearings at 250 im still rather uncomfortable at that and would prefer in the 190 to 200 range.

oil is clear on the way to the track. then after 8 20 minute sessions its super black im also sending one of these high oxidated oil samples to black stone for analysis to see how bad i cooked it. should have results in a couple weeks.


my main concern is whether the stock pump can flow for this large of a circuit. ive seen people run coolers on the drivers side so i assume im ok i just wanted your opinion on the issue. also i have a push button start so i can prime the motor before i actually let it start.


also water temps are solid at 190 taken at the thermostat houseing. i also have wings welded on the pan which ups the pan capacity to around 6 quarts plus whatever is in the filter and cooler. if there is any other information you would like i can provide it. i can get pictures tonight as well

 

[jdub]

Like I said, I'm not trying to be a Dick.
I answer dozens of oil questions a week via PM...it's just get old trying to drag info out of folks in an effort to help.

250 degs is still too high post cooler...I'd be interested in seeing the Blackstone results.

With -10 lines you should be fine with a dual cooler set-up. I would create a parallel circuit from the thermostat to the coolers...i.e line from the T-stat to a T-fitting feeding the inlet to both. Same for the cooler return back to the T-stat. This way you split the thermal load and don't over cool the oil.

In your case, it might be a good idea to monitor oil temps both pre and post cooler. You could use 2 gauges or get another sender (the same as you have) and set-up a way to switch senders from the cockpit.

What filter are you running?
You might want to consider one of these:
http://www.cmfilters.com/spin-on.cfm#specs

The CM filter is the highest flowing I know of...does a great job of filtering too. They do have an anti-drain back valve, but do not have a internal filter bypass (they flow that good).

 

[supraguru05]

i know your busy thanks for answering it just shows how awesome you are lol.

yea my next thing i was going to say was i was probably going to switch to a inline filter. but those spin ons should work just fine. so your recommending taking the output of the t stat and running it into a tee and running the coolers in parallel. hmm i was going to run them in seris. well ill talk to some local shops and probably run them in parallel. would you recommend the spin on versus switching to a inline cm filter. i guess the spin on is a little easier to change. im not oppossed to switching to a inline if you think its a advantage. ill be sure to post the oil analysis results when i get them.

thanks alot jdub your advice will not be in vein

 

[jdub]

You're welcome

A parallel circuit will split the flow and keep the line length (oil path) down.

That CM filter spin-on is one of the best...use the 6 1/4" tall one if you can comfortably fit it...it flows 45 GPM. It will be easier to change vs the in-line one. The in-line offers no real advantage. Downside of the CM filters is the price.

 

[IJ.]

Back when I had my TTv8 Z Car I ran a dedicated cooling system just for the engine with a T Stat switch and an Electric Pump and a couple of HUGE coolers.

I'll be interested to see what the addition of a second cooler on your car achives.

 

[Rennat]

just my thoughts on this... why not get a bigger cooler?

your 11x8 seems kinda small when you compare it to the sizes available...

would this do a better job than 2 coolers?
http://store.summitracing.com/partd...&N=700+4294888847+4294906639+115&autoview=sku

or this one?
http://store.summitracing.com/partd...=PRM-315&N=700+400006+307187+115&autoview=sku

 

[jdub]

The problem with a big cooler is where to mount it...not impossible, just very difficult. Especially if you already have an existing IC set up that takes up a lot of frontal area.

One other option is to add a fan to the cooler...like this one:
http://store.summitracing.com/partd...1&part=BMM%2D70297&N=700+115&autoview=sku

This is a good choice where air flow is limited...like where Guru is looking to mount it forward of the wheel well.

Not a big fan of the tube/fin coolers...the plate type (like the B&M) is more efficient and less prone to damage.

 

[supraguru05]

as jdub mentioned rennat the tube and fins do not compare to the cooling capability of the bar and plate coolers. a 8X11 bar and plate is rather large. and a 11X11 will fill the whole front area under the headlight which is where i am mounting them. ill put some pictures up when the mounting is done next week.

also as jdub said the bar and plates are really strong. when i first mounted it two years ago i accidently drug the bottom of it ona bump in the road the cooler took the hit fine. also the car fell of the ramps on the trailor (long story) and the cooler smacked the trailer and held the car up. thanks to my 1/8in steel plate brackets the cooler bent but did not break

 

[jdub]

Guru - Take a look at the B&M cool/fan combo...the core is 12x8x1.5...a bit smaller, but the fan will greatly improve air flow (especially where you are mounting it). The fan switches on at 175 degs...perfect match for the Mocal T-stat.

 

[supraguru05]

oil sample. i have a crappy pep boys cone filter on it so im getting a k&n for it for next season lol.

larger oil cooler came in will mount it this weekend and ill post pictures

 

[jdub]

It does look good (except for the silicon of course). Your wear metals look good too...the oil is doing it's job. And no anti-freeze is always a good thing

Don't get a K&N filter...they are crap. If you are going to use a cone type, get an AEM Dryflow filter...much better choice.

The other thing I noticed is the 100 deg C viscosity. GC is pretty thick at that temp for a 30W...in the 12.5 cst range. It appears the oil has sheared down (to 10.6 cst) quite a bit. The high temps would explain this.

 

[supraguru05]

just ordered a AEM filter from summit lol.

as you can see from the first picture that is the current configuration. very compact. the new design is going to relocate the filter to probably where the thermostat is and move the thermostat more centralized in the car so there is room for the t fittings. from the second picture you can see the size comparison between the old cooler and the new 2nd cooler. the new cooler has 50% more cooling capacity according to b&m.

ill keep updating this thread to show people how i fit and plumbed this system thanks for the help jdub

also you can see why i only run bar and plate coolers. it took quite a hit when the car fell of the ramps on the trailer and hasnt leaked yet. im going to try to straighten it but im not getting my hopes up

 

[jdub]

You're welcome

That cooler has a nice bow in it!

 

[supraguru05]

happy thanksgiving heres my update
the coolers are mounted and the filter mount is remounted. word to the wise when people say the cast permacool filter mounts crack they were kidding when i switched the fittings out i cracked my original one so i had to order another. also i ordered the mocal adapter for the block that sends the outlets out the bottom instead of out the side. this makes life alot easier

everything is mounted except the thermostat. i ran out of fittings so im waiting on a summit order to arrive to plumb in the next T fitting for the bottom of the coolers and the thermostat.

 

[supraguru05]

plumbing is done it was a PITA. pictures will be posted tonight. hopefully having them in parallel works and i dont have to redo it. it did not turn out as great as i had hoped but i just need to get it running again