A Statement to Terror

[Northstar24]

Getting mad at your government for a slight decrease in freedom is exactly what the terrorirsts want you to do. They aren't stupid, they know that they cannot possibly line up and fight a traditional war against the US or its allies.

While I'm ranting, we need to all take a moment to remember all of those in the service defending our freedom. You can be against the war all you want, but you still need to support your troops

 

[jdub]

Very well said.I can agree for the most part, but when i look to take my frustrations out on the "real enemy" it leaves me to question myself.As the group of "terrorist" our media portrays forces the mind set, that the people of the geographical area, of certain color, or of a certain religion are the enemy, when infact its just a small group of people. It leaves one to ask, Does the one bad apple indeed spoil the whole bunch?Stereotypically speaking of course.

It is a small group...a group that is using religion to gain control. I've said this before, it's all about power. The various terrorist organizations are trying to gain control of the Islamic world and we are an easy target toward that end.

We are actually in agreement...you should question yourself and actions of the government. Anyone that blindly follows the left, right, or any ideology is setting themselves up to be manipulated by that ideology. In extreme cases, a group like the Nazis gain control and history shows what happened next.

In this case, the target is clear...any terrorist (regardless of religious affiliations) must be stopped and brought to justice. Sometimes it works...other times it doesn't. I do know we must try to stop terrorists like Richard Reid and destroy the organizations that wish the demise of freedom.

 

[Reign_Maker]

Jdub: excellent posting... +1...

Fuzz: debating high again? lol... Its all good... But like Jdub said, its not the gov't's want to hold you up in line at an airport... And as far as losing freedoms, what freedoms have you really lost? When was the last time the gov't looked at what books you read? Or tapped YOUR phone? The way I look at it is like this: if I get pulled over by the cops at a check point, I have nothing to worry about, they check my lisence, registration, and insurance, and then run my name... Im not worried, because Im a law abiding citizen... I dont have drugs or guns or alcohol in my car, and I have no warrants for my arrest anywhere, so I wont sit there and sweat and shake and be nervous... The cop will come back, hand me my stuff and say have a nice day... The only ones who worry are the ones who have something to hide... GW Bush can tap my phone any day, all day, every day, i dont care... Im not doing ANYTHING wrong... And there is nothing he would hear that I would be ashamed to let anyone hear... See what Im saying?

The terrorists are doing what they can to corode the USA from the inside out... When they hit the WTC's, one of their goals what to cripple the NYSE and bring our economy to its knees... It didnt happen... Bush admin made the right choices, now our economy is up... They are nipping at the heels of America, like rabid little dogs, trying to make us fall by chewing our feet out from under us, pitting one side v/s the other and making their beds with other nations who foolishly believe their best interest is at heart, when the truth is, they're just using them as pawns in this global chess game... Our duty as Americans is to stand together and thwart the terror they try to inflict upon us... UNITED States of America...

::salute:: ::salute::

 

[Fuzz420]

Very compelling arguments

*bows out gracefully*

Until next time

 

[Reign_Maker]

Very compelling arguments

*bowls out gracefully*

Until next time

heheheheeeeee fixed... :biglaugh:

 

[mattsplat72]

I am glad this thread has stimulated the thought processes of you all.I hate "cancer" and would want the "doctor" to do what it took to get it out of my "body" . Now that does not meen I like surgery ,But it has to be done . When the plot in London was foiled . i was awake at the time watching the news . An interesting point was made by their F.A.A. . Basically saying that people need to stop thinking of the airlines as flying busses. People bitch about the lines . What the Fudge those lines are there to save their lives. I Digress . I guess a simple souloution to increased airport security whoas is stay home ....

 

[Greg55_99]

Can I bend you gents ear for a few?

Lets look at the facts. Richard Reid is a US citizen. He has all the rights afforded under the Constitution and was provided a lawyer and fair trial by a jury of his peers. He was found guilty, showed no remorse whatsoever and I applaud Judge Young for making damn sure this psycho never has another opportunity to execute an attempt to kill in the name of Islam again.

Uh... no... Richard Reid is a citizen of the UK.

Getting mad at your government for a slight decrease in freedom is exactly what the terrorirsts want you to do. They aren't stupid, they know that they cannot possibly line up and fight a traditional war against the US or its allies.

Jdub: excellent posting... +1...

Fuzz: debating high again? lol... Its all good... But like Jdub said, its not the gov't's want to hold you up in line at an airport... And as far as losing freedoms, what freedoms have you really lost? When was the last time the gov't looked at what books you read? Or tapped YOUR phone? The way I look at it is like this: if I get pulled over by the cops at a check point, I have nothing to worry about, they check my lisence, registration, and insurance, and then run my name... Im not worried, because Im a law abiding citizen... I dont have drugs or guns or alcohol in my car, and I have no warrants for my arrest anywhere, so I wont sit there and sweat and shake and be nervous... The cop will come back, hand me my stuff and say have a nice day... The only ones who worry are the ones who have something to hide... GW Bush can tap my phone any day, all day, every day, i dont care... Im not doing ANYTHING wrong... And there is nothing he would hear that I would be ashamed to let anyone hear... See what Im saying?

Am I to understand that you gentlemen are fine with having the Bill of Rights diminished in the name of personal safety? That is, "search my car, search my house, search my person, tap my phone, I'm not doing anything... but keep me safe...."

Is that what I'm hearing?

Greg

 

[JustAnotherVictim]

Phone tap the suspicious people leave me alone. I'm sure as hell not gonna blow myself up.

 

[jdub]

Uh... no... Richard Reid is a citizen of the UK.

You are correct. However, I stand by the point I was making. Richard Reid was tried under US law...with all the rights afforded as if he was a US citizen.

Am I to understand that you gentlemen are fine with having the Bill of Rights diminished in the name of personal safety? That is, "search my car, search my house, search my person, tap my phone, I'm not doing anything... but keep me safe...."

Is that what I'm hearing?

Greg

No...it's not. Airport screening does not violate the Bill of Rights...my car is not being searched, my house is not being searched, my phone is not being tapped. The US government doesn't have the resources to monitor every person in the country...they have much bigger fish to fry hunting down terrorists like Reid.

Follow the rules and there is no search of your person or your bag....sick people like Reid have made it necessary to require screening as a condition to enter the airport. If that is a problem...you are free to drive, take a bus, or rent a private plane. The ability to move about this country freely has no restrictions whatsoever.

 

[JustAnotherVictim]

I thought Bush admitted to tapping phones.

 

[jdub]

I thought Bush admitted to tapping phones.

What you're referring to is "data mining" by the NSA...basically gathering phone call records and analyzing by computer to spot trends. Especially to areas of the world known to be terrorist hotspots

To actually tap an individual's phone requires "probable cause" for a judge issued court order. That has not changed...however, it was made easier for terrorist investigations by the Patriot Act.

 

[Greg55_99]

What you're referring to is "data mining" by the NSA...basically gathering phone call records and analyzing by computer to spot trends. Especially to areas of the world known to be terrorist hotspots

To actually tap an individual's phone requires "probable cause" for a judge issued court order. That has not changed...however, it was made easier for terrorist investigations by the Patriot Act.

Actually Jdub, that HAS changed because the Bush Administration HAS been tapping the phones of US citizens without a court warrant. That's what the NSA wiretapping issue is all about.

Greg

 

[jdub]

Actually Jdub, that HAS changed because the Bush Administration HAS been tapping the phones of US citizens without a court warrant. That's what the NSA wiretapping issue is all about.

Greg

Got a link to that info Greg? That's new to me.

 

[Greg55_99]

Got a link to that info Greg? That's new to me.

Oh yeah... it was in all the papers...

http://www.mied.uscourts.gov/eGov/taylorpdf/06 10204.pdf

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/12/16/politics/16program.html?ei=5090&en=e32072d786623ac1&ex=1292389200

Greg

 

[encomiast]

GW Bush can tap my phone any day, all day, every day, i dont care... Im not doing ANYTHING wrong... And there is nothing he would hear that I would be ashamed to let anyone hear... See what Im saying?

Actually this sounds a little worrying to me. It may well be that you don't have anything to hide and don't care NOW if the current government is tapping your phone etc.. But who knows who will be in the government in 5 or 10 years from now? Some of the laws being passed today in the name of security might get quite discomforting in a not-so-distant future.
Who knows what the criteria for being regarded as a public enemy will be in 5 years? Maybe some red haired guys are blowing up the White House tomorrow and all red haired people are getting under general suspicion afterwards?

Apart from that, I personally think most governments in the "western world" are in fact using the current terrorism hype to establish means to control and observe their peoples. The effectivity of many of those measures regarding the fight on terrorism is questionable to say the least. But they sure are very well-suited for controlling the people. And you can't tell me that the interests and security of the pople are the politicians' primary concerns. It's all about power IMO.

I really like how Benjamin Franklin put it: "He who would trade liberty for some temporary security, deserves neither liberty nor security"

IMO governments are doing the terrorists' job of impairing personal freedom right now, thus helping the terrorists instead of fighting them.


jdub:
There's a nice long article on wikipedia about the "NSA electronic surveillance program": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorist_Surveillance_Program

On May 22, 2006, it was revealed by investigative reporter Seymour Hersh and Wired magazine that the program involved the NSA setting up splitters to the routing cores of many telecoms companies and to major Internet traffic hubs, that provided a direct connection to the NSA headquarters for most U.S. telecoms communications and all Internet traffic, and that the NSA had used this to eavesdrop and order police investigations of tens of thousands of ordinary Americans without judicial warrants.

The President has stated that he has reviewed and reauthorized the program approximately every 45 days since it was implemented.

Oh, someone's knocking on my door again... I wonder who that is

 

[JustAnotherVictim]

Oh yeah... it was in all the papers...

http://www.mied.uscourts.gov/eGov/taylorpdf/06 10204.pdf

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/12/16/politics/16program.html?ei=5090&en=e32072d786623ac1&ex=1292389200

Greg

Yea, that's what I remember seeing.

 

[jdub]

Good read Gentlemen...I stand corrected.

I was under the impression that a wire tap required a court order and that had not changed. It appears the Bush Administration is using the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act to eavesdrop on call originating or directed to overseas locations. I didn't realize the court the Act created was being bypassed.

We'll see if the Justice Dept appeal will stand. Not sure if I like this :3d_frown:

 

[mattsplat72]

Just out of curiosity how many people that have posted in this thread are registerd voters? I am not ,because I lost that right(among others) . I think the first step is to vote .Pay attention to the world , read the fine print ,dont belive the hype, and teach each other what is going on. I think our goverments worst enemy is an informed public. Not the information that you get from the media , but the news that travels in differemt channels (ie blogs,forums, and word of mouth). I think that the next war will most likely be a class war with in this country.

 

[Aaron J Williams]

Just out of curiosity how many people that have posted in this thread are registerd voters? I am not ,because I lost that right(among others) . I think the first step is to vote .Pay attention to the world , read the fine print ,dont belive the hype, and teach each other what is going on. I think our goverments worst enemy is an informed public. Not the information that you get from the media , but the news that travels in differemt channels (ie blogs,forums, and word of mouth). I think that the next war will most likely be a class war with in this country.

I agree completely except the class war has been going on since The New Deal and The Great Society. Our current tax code is pure class warfare. Research the alternative minimum tax , death tax, etc...

Yes, registered voter and voted in the primary on the 12th, former election judge, and responsible for many of Theresa's kitten deaths.:evil2:

 

[Adjuster]

If you guys think the NSA just started to listen in on long distance calls reicently, your living in fantasy land... LOL

Acually, the way I hear it, to get around domestic laws, we have "wink wink" agreements with our friends around the world to listen in on each other, and share the take.

So, we used to listen to England for example, they wire tapped us, and we gave them our take, and they gave us theirs.. totally leagal by the way..

Here's another one. We actually wire tapped entire undersea phone lines during the cold war. (Yep, the CIA had developed ways to get submarines down to wires deep in the sea, below depths that the Soviet's thought we could dive to, and then "tap" the entire set of wires they were using for communications.) Did it in Germany too. Heck, we've been tapping lines and monitoring chatter for decades. We had the Japanese codes cracked, and many of the German ones too. (And many other things that nobody is going to talk about even now.)

It's just good intell. (Anyone that says otherwise, is a total fool IMNSHO.)

The fact that we have had NO terrorist plots blowing up stuff here in the USA over the past 5 years is in large part attached to this listening to the phones, and using massive amounts of computer power to sift through all the chatter, and find the stuff that matters, get it to the people who can do something about it, and then act against the terrorists before they blow someone up.

England is a good example. The terrorists were stupid and talked, and were discovered, infiltrated and then arrested. I say give them the water tourture, get all the info you can out of them, and then give them a long life being someone's bitch in prison.