A little upset, wouldnt mind a little advice.

CyFi6

Aliens.
Oct 11, 2007
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Let me start by saying that I have been driving for approximately 7 years and have never had any traffic violations. I always drive reasonably on the street because I know how dangerous speeding can be.

The other night (11:15PM, few cars on the road, maybe one vehicle every 15 to 30 seconds) I was driving (Supra) home from the local supermarket which is about 5 miles away from my home maximum. I jumped on the major two lane highway heading northbound. This highway is under major construction currently as they are expanding it (construction only happens in the day time, no workers on site at night). Speed limits up and down the highway range anywhere from 25 to 45mph. The section between the supermarket and the street heading east that I need to take is a 35MPH zone. After driving north on the 2 lane highway, I approached a red traffic light at which I needed to make a right turn. There are many cones all over the road including around the intersection. There is about 1/8 miles of orange construction cones heading east, which is where I am turning. I turn right going east on the major road (not a highway) and continue to drive up to 45MPH. There has not been a speed limit sign anywhere since about 3 miles ago on the northbound highway (35MPH). After turning there are no traffic speed signs.

I continue east going a maximum of 45MPH on my gauge(by the time I reached 45MPH I saw the police car and instinctively backed off to about 40MPH). I reached about 1/8 mile down the eastbound road where the construction zone was finished and I was now in the 45 MPH zone. By this time I noticed that the police (A police car with a police van following) had already pulled out and were following me. They quickly turned on the lights and pulled me over.

I did everything that I ever learned, I have never been pulled over before so it was a new experience for me, but I kept calm. I shut the car down and rolled the window down and kept my hands on the wheel. He approached and asked for license and registration/insurance which I agreed to with "yes sir" and asked for permission to reach in my pocket for my wallet and the glove box for the registration and insurance. As I fished for my items he asked me if I knew how fast I was going, I said "yes, about 45MPH". He then asked if I knew that it was a 25MPH construction zone, and that he clocked me going 48MPH. I told that "that did not occur to me". He asked if I had anything illegal in the car to which I replied "no sir". He also asked me where I was coming from and going, to which I told him. He took my information back to his vehicle for about 10 minutes.

He came back with his clipboard and my information and told me I was receiving a criminal traffic charge. He clocked me at 48MPH in a 25MPH zone. He explained that I was required to show up to court on the presented day otherwise I would have a search warrant filed against me. He had me sign the paper acknowledging that I received the citation but not admitting guilt. In AZ anything over 20MPH above the posted speed limit is a criminal, not civil charge and carries a repercussion of possible jail time, large fines, 3 points on driving record, and a permanent criminal record. I was told to step out of the car because they needed a photo of my face. They moved me to the sidewalk and took a photo of my face with a digital camera. He asked me if I had any questions and I replied "No sir", he asked me one more time if I was sure that I had no questions, I replied "no" and he told me I was free to go.

That was the end of it. I did not bring up the fact that the speed limit was not posted because at the time I honestly thought I must have missed it. I couldn't remember whether or not there was a speed limit sign. I usually have a keen eye for speed limit signs and I follow them. In this case I returned to the scene the next day to find no 25MPH speed limit indication after the intersection that I turned at (in the eastbound direction). The speed limit before the intersection that I turned at was 35MPH.

In all honesty, even without knowing the speed limit, I should have known that 45 was too fast, that was careless on my part, I got carried away because the 45MPH zone speed limit sign ahead was visible from where I was. I take responsibility for my actions but I am deathly afraid of the consequences that I do not feel are deserved or just. Considering that I am studying to go into the automotive field, a lifelong traffic criminal record could be detrimental to my future.

I plan on hiring an attorney to help me with this process, but here is where I need some advice. What is the best way to find a good strong attorney that is seasoned in this type of work? I do not know a lot of people in this area that have ever had to deal with traffic violations, so word of mouth among my friends isn't really an option. I have been looking online but have a hard time deciphering who really is good and who isn't. I have not talked to any of them in person yet. I am a working student and I do have emergency savings that I am willing to spend on a proper attorney to attempt to keep myself from having permanent damage on my record. I do not mind fees fines and other costs but a criminal record is something I can not stand to live with.

This was also a little chance for me to vent my situation. I thank you if you have any encouraging comments or even bothered reading all this, but I am in a bit of a panic stage right now. My court day is in approximately one month.
 

Grandavi

Active Member
Sep 25, 2008
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Calgary, Alberta, Canada
I would take photos of the roadway, timestamped showing no speed signs. Then I would point to the fact that you have a very clean driving record and do your best to follow all speed limits, but in this case you had to judge what was appropriate because of the lack of any speed signs and assumed your speed was both safe and correct. Also, although it may differ for where you are, a police statement that he "clocked you" is very flawed. If he had a radar speed, that is a fairly good indicator, but I wouldn't admit to any speed.. I would say that you were possible going 40-45 mph or whatever the lawyer advises. If you are asked what speed your were going, it is usually safe to answer, you believe you were doing a safe speed and not provide a number. Its tricky because you dont want to piss them off, but you dont want to incriminate yourself either.

In my province, we have retired police that set up paralegal services to fight tickets. I have used them (they are called "Points" here, but there are others) and found them to be extremely effective. I am not sure of the laws in Phoenix.. however, I do know that you did the correct procedure by talking extremely little as the US police are there to find guilty people.. not innocent people, so anything you say "can and will be" used against you.

Hope it all turns out well and that someone knows of a service like we have. It cost me 75.00 to turn a 1500.00 fine down to 150.00 and I didn't even have to appear in court for it.

Just as a little point for Americans who may find Canadians as being similar in the "freedom" area... we are unfortunate enough to be guilty until we prove ourselves innocent here. Canada is a police state, but our citizens dont know it until they have a run-in with the law. No "one phone call" here... and they do not really have to explain what you can do to correct a situation. I spent a full 36 hours in jail before I convinced a guard to explain to me what I needed to do to get out. (I am self-employed and jail is not a good thing... most humiliating experience in my life). The US is probably the most free nation on earth from my window... but police are the same everywhere... they all are looking for what you did wrong.. its their job.
 

suprarx7nut

YotaMD.com author
Nov 10, 2006
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Go take hundreds of pictures. No exaggeration. Timestamp it with a newspaper clip or something. If there wasn't a posted speed limit your town may have a city wide " speed limit is 25 unless otherwise noted...." rule.

Either way... sounds like you need a traffic lawyer.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2
 

Insidious Surmiser

Formerly 89jdm7m
May 12, 2006
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I wouldn't sweat it... the best advice has been given already... due to the lack of any signs stating the speed on your route any decent lawyer and good documentation of the lack of signs (as already stated by gradavi and suprarx7nut) should easily get you out of trouble. I've never seen a 25mph zone on a highway. I personally believe that would be a pretty dangerous thing to have.
 

CyFi6

Aliens.
Oct 11, 2007
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Thanks for the tips.
Grandavi I have never heard of such a service, it would be great if we have something like that here. 75 for their services?! That is insane. I plan on spending at least 1000 US dollars for any type of legal help from an attorney. I need to find one quickly unless there are other options. I wouldn't in a million years attempt to defend myself, I have nowhere near enough knowledge or experience. I have never stepped foot into a courtroom.

I plan to wake up early tomorrow and document the area the best I possibly can. I wish I could get it in a low traffic state because its a totally different animal during the day with tons of traffic.

And yes JDM7m the speed limits on some portions of this highway are outright dangerously slow. These speed limits can be justified in the daytime when there are lots of workers and half of the traffic on the road are big semi trucks hauling materials from one section of the road to the other, but in the night with no activity whatsoever I feel like I am impeding traffic following these speed limits. I mentioned that some sections are 25MPH on this major highway. Tonight from work I drove the entire length of the highway and there were sections marked by a 25 MPH sign, and it wouldn't be but after 10 minutes of driving that a 35MPH sign would appear, meaning I was at 25 MPH for about 5-10 minutes on a completely open strait road! On my 30 minute drive home on this highway I was nearly run off the road because *every single* vehicle that made it's way behind me passed me (4 cars/trucks and one motorcycle, most of them passing illegally over a double or solid line) after tailing me for a couple minutes.
 

Grandavi

Active Member
Sep 25, 2008
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Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Yeah, Points is like a massive assist for us drivers.. should exist everywhere really. You tell them what happened, send them the ticket (scan via email is fine), pay them with credit card.. never leave your chair.. lol. They have been doing traffic tickets for like 30 + years so they know what to do. I lost no points at all...
 

suprarx7nut

YotaMD.com author
Nov 10, 2006
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Uh... JJ: what exactly did he do wrong? Enlighten us, would you? Not admitting speed helps, but aside from that I'm not seeing anything.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2
 

Grandavi

Active Member
Sep 25, 2008
2,663
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Calgary, Alberta, Canada
I have huge issues with "speeding" per se...

Yes speed kills, but only when the driver is doing something silly. I don't agree with a 60 mph highway speed limit because of a few things... One of them being that the speed limit was developed during the 50-60's with cars that were nothing like today. I can safely drive at 80 mph in a car built for 110 mph, but I was trained to drive differently than today.
Today's drivers worry about parallel parking more than defensive driving... And because we have "baby" speed limits that generate revenue. In Canada a highway built for 60 mph, has a safety factor of +40 mph built into it. Most of the accidents I have seen are because people panic when something changes.
That's not speed... That's just lack of skill.

Of course speed decreases your amount of time to respond to change and when I drive I keep that in the back of my mind. Been driving for 34 years and had 4 accidents, only one of which I was at fault because I was way over speed on roads that were wet. Nobody on the road but me though... I always respect the other cars right to safety. (also.. try to keep an open mind to what I said. I know that with the amount of people on the roads today its very hard to drive correctly at a speed above the speed limit, but here in Calgary, the highway to Edmonton is a 3 hour drive, but is 2 lanes and if everyone drove correctly, 90 mph would be very safe. I do realise.. that is a bit of a dream world... )

Now... A construction zone is different because the workers deserve our respect...

In this instance I think the police should have warned him.



My thoughts...
 
Last edited:

dubsupra209

CENCAL SUPRAS
Mar 6, 2009
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A university did a test idk where the link or any things at but I specifically remember that only 7% of wrecks are from speeding. Off topic I know sorry guys.
 

Insidious Surmiser

Formerly 89jdm7m
May 12, 2006
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In all seriousness I think cyfi6 was just in the wrong place @ the wrong time... met a grade A dickhead too by the sound of it. Is there any possibility your speedo is calibrated for a little smaller wheels/tires?

most accidents here are caused by deer... but any speed over 25mph can be deadly. That said, I've wrecked @ 120mph... it was 3:45 in the morning, the time when everyone should be asleep, and wouldn't you know it. someone pulled out RIGHT in front of me, needless to say I ditched my car, I was completely unharmed... car got a bent rim. Other than that I've totaled a supra because of a non-visible 5th road @ a crossing combined with a passing truck obstructing my view of a car that had just pulled out of that 5th road (I already checked all visible roads for traffic multiple times, and was watching the last vehicle pass(truck))... also totaled a civic w/ 13" race brakes into a bush (was going 45 when I hit the brakes, car just slid) I was going down a dead-end road I shouldn't have been on, as my co-driver knew the area(I didn't); he was sleepy and told me the wrong road to go down. I also hit a car in a parking lot trying to back out, cause I couldn't see around (or through) this monstrosity of an SUV. I also wrecked a '90 civic (no damage done) going the speed limit (35mph) @ proper following distance. The cars in front almost hit each other slowing down so fast. I was on the brakes IMMEDIATELY; needless to say, civics don't like to stop. (it all happened so fast, but the car simply didn't have the braking/tire capacity to slow down enough, I knew that and locked up all 4 tires trying to get it to slow down enough) All in all I'd say I'm lucky to still be alive, although pretty much all of those incidents were "bad luck" although I don't believe in luck... I still use the stupid word ;)

almost forgot another accident I had trying to get home before the sun set in a blizzard. I was rolling 80 mph down the highway. As soon as the sun set the road iced over, and a cross wind hit my fwd corolla and pushed the rear end out to the right (I was on the far left) I tried to recover it, but it wasn't working, so @ 80mph I made the choice to ditch it onto the right shoulder. I was driving as fast as I was to make sure I was clear of traffic should anything go wrong. And no way in hell do you want to be in the middle of the highway in a snow storm. That effed up my driver's CV axle (still rattles to this day) assholes @ toyota swear up and down there's nothing wrong with it, and refuse to fix it.
 

IJ.

Grumpy Old Man
Mar 30, 2005
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Don't know about there but here there is always an "End Construction Zone" Sign up, until you pass that the Speed Limit is in force no matter what.

NEVER admit guilt ever even if you are 100% busted red handed.
 

Insidious Surmiser

Formerly 89jdm7m
May 12, 2006
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that's how it is here too... it's just that 25mph on a highway is asking for someone to get killed. Here it would be 45mph. possibly 35. 45 is more appropriate as it would give someone who isn't paying as much attention at least a bit of leeway in response time.
 

CyFi6

Aliens.
Oct 11, 2007
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Yes in hindsight telling him my speed was in this case admitting guilt, but I had no idea how much I was speeding, in fact I didn't believe I was speeding. There's no way for me or any other driver following the same route to know that it was a 25MPH zone.

What is the best way to respond to the question of "Do you know how fast you were going?"? If I say no, I am a careless driver not paying any attention to his rate of speed. If I say yes he will then say "ok, and how fast were you going?". How do you respond to that? The fact of the matter is that in this particular case I knew exactly what my speed was and I thought it was proper, which is why I disclosed. There has to be a balance between not admitting any guilt and also not pissing off the officer, I just don't know how to handle that.
 

IanC

New Member
Jul 13, 2012
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Maryville, TN
Sounds like you just got stuck with a bored, up tight officer. I'm always 100% honest with police when pulled over and all but one time they've just asked me to slow it down and usually thank me for my honesty. The one time that didn't work was on Easter Sunday and I'm pretty sure he was being a dick because he had to work. Wrote me 3 tickets and all but the speeding was tossed out. I took a driving class to keep the ticket off my insurance and paid it. Usually I'm pulled over on my bike and it's always for speeding so I'm of the mindset that every now and then you'll have to pay to play.
 

mkiii222

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Mar 31, 2005
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suprarx7nut;1904776 said:
Uh... JJ: what exactly did he do wrong? Enlighten us, would you? Not admitting speed helps, but aside from that I'm not seeing anything.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2

I can't speak for JJ and wouldn't try to but here's my own list of what I see wrong:

Assumed 45mph zone while construction barrels were still present
Admitted guilt/ignorance of speed limit
At the end he asked you if you had any questions twice, he likely was trying to give you an out by asking to see the reading on the gun, if they can't show it they aren't supposed to be able to write the ticket. (not that many will follow this)
You answered his question about where you were coming from/going. This has nothing to do with a speeding violation and the officer has no legal basis for asking. Your mileage may vary on avoiding this question but I will answer it myself if and only if I'm already small talking with the officer.

To me it's also odd that he made you leave the car and took your picture but I've never been pulled over in your state. I've been stopped numerous times for various speeds in multiple states and have never heard of it.
 

suprarx7nut

YotaMD.com author
Nov 10, 2006
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mkiii222;1904877 said:
I can't speak for JJ and wouldn't try to but here's my own list of what I see wrong:

Assumed 45mph zone while construction barrels were still present
Admitted guilt/ignorance of speed limit
At the end he asked you if you had any questions twice, he likely was trying to give you an out by asking to see the reading on the gun, if they can't show it they aren't supposed to be able to write the ticket. (not that many will follow this)
You answered his question about where you were coming from/going. This has nothing to do with a speeding violation and the officer has no legal basis for asking. Your mileage may vary on avoiding this question but I will answer it myself if and only if I'm already small talking with the officer.

To me it's also odd that he made you leave the car and took your picture but I've never been pulled over in your state. I've been stopped numerous times for various speeds in multiple states and have never heard of it.

If asked about the speed limit, what should he have said?

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2
 

Grandavi

Active Member
Sep 25, 2008
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Calgary, Alberta, Canada
I would think there are a couple answers.. however.. being prepared with them is a little harder.. because you tend to panic a little when pulled over.
You could do a "I believe I was doing the speed limit... but apparently I missed a sign somewhere" or "I assume I was driving too fast otherwise you wouldn't have pulled me over".

The key is to not seem like you are insulting his intelligence or hiding. Cops hate that... but if you are a bit vague, they understand you dont want to incriminate yourself.

Another would be, "I assumed I was doing the speed limit, how fast do you think I was going?" followed by a "I didn't see a speed sign since my last turn, was I driving too fast?"

The final one could be.. "I refuse to answer that because it may incriminate me and I currently am not sure of why you pulled me over". Although, this is a bit adversarial... although you are well within your rights to say it.
 

peavy

New Member
Nov 10, 2011
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Ontario
Grandavi;1904786 said:
...I was trained to drive differently than today. Today's drivers worry about parallel parking more than defensive driving...

I completely agree with Grandavi on this one. Driver training is abysmal these days, and imho a little bit more prudence would prevent the vast majority of accidents. I'm all for spirited driving, but don't do it 2 feet behind me or anybody else. Respect other vehicles space.

CiFy6, I really do sympathize with you on this one. Its horrible to hear about a good driver who's minding his/her own business getting such serious charges, when there are people on the roads who refuse to follow more than 6 feet behind another vehicle, regardless of speed.