Engine Grooves

Supracentral

Active Member
Mar 30, 2005
10,542
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36
Ok,

I know at some point, someone is going to post about this, so let's get your opinion on this out there 1st:

http://www.somender-singh.com/

Engine grooves - I would suspect that cutting sharp grooves into the quench area of your cylinder head will only cause hot-spots and who knows what else.

Your commentary on this seeming insanity?
 

IJ.

Grumpy Old Man
Mar 30, 2005
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I come from a land down under
1st I've heard/seen of it.

I'd need to see hard data from independant labs to accept that it does what's being promised (42% change in ANYTHING is a bit hard to swallow)

I'd also be concerned at cutting stress risers into a head but that's just me.
 

Adjuster

Supramania Contributor
Read all that I could stand, looked around for the technical data, and it's not there in much quantity.

My thoughts are this.

1) The guy is a Earth First nutjob. That is very clear.
2) He has found out what many engine builders/designers have known for years. Turbulent mixtures burn better. (IE: Vortec engines etc.)
3) His "Grove" patent is something he wants to be paid for.
4) I'm not sure it would work very well with a dished piston design v/s a flat top, or raised dome piston where "squish" is much more of a factor.

From what I know of the 7MGTE design, it's squish areas are only around the edges of the piston dish. (So they are pretty small to start with.)

The head has some designed into it, but the piston design on the turbo motor negates much of the head's combustion chamber flat surfaces.

This is enhanced by anyone who might have rounded over, or cleaned up the combustion chamber, to unshroud the valves for example.

Like IJ, I'm not sure I'd want to cut a large grove, or series of groves into this head. It was never designed for that, and avoiding the coolant passeges would be mandatory, and inducing the right, or more effective swirl pattern would take quite a bit of luck, or testing to perfect.

His claims are on Briggs and Stratton type side valve motors. Nobody uses a motor like that on a modern automobile. The gains to be found on modern designs, and I'd venture, most 4 valve head designs would be minimal at best, and only worth screwing with if you are already into the engine, and doing machine work. (And then it's a crapshoot if your going to improve, or screw up the original design work.. Or worse, cut into a coolant jacket, and ruin the head.)

This might be useful on a "bathtub" combustion chamber design, that many two valve domestic engine's have used for many years. They have large squish areas, generally use flat top pistons, and might see gains from added swirl of the intake charge. (Thus the reason the "Vortec" and other high swirl engine designs have come along like the LS heads and tall thin intakes they use.) The LS7 engine does not make so much power because it's not mixing the air and fuel poorly ! :)

So my personal thought is that this is mostly hype, with some simple truth attached to it. (The best type of hype actually, people get on the band wagon better when they can focus on the truth, but ignore the bullshit/hype.)

I seriously doubt that this modification is going to take a Suburban for example, cut some groves into the heads and then improve the fuel economy by 40%+.

I also doubt that it's going to be much of an improvement on a dished piston design engine. (Like the 7MGTE.)

My coatings would do more. (Have done more. I've seen 30mpg at 80mph cruise at 14.7:1 AF on the way to Vegas and back... Not too shabby for a 420rwhp engine in a 3800lb car.) No groves needed, but the coatings do improve and enhance the thermal properties of this, or any IC engine.

My .02 cents. :)
 

bigboost7m

New Member
Apr 20, 2005
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Center Line, MI
I came across this once when I worked at Livernois Motorsports last year. The guy had a turbocharged small block Ford Windsor. I never had the chance to see if the "grooves" actually made a difference compared to a "non-grooved head", because the guy sent us the heads "pre-grooved", he just wanted the engine built. I believe an experienced head porter can achieve better results blending and re-shaping the chamber. Good effort on his part though.

PS- I would like to see a picture of piston of an engine that has the "grooves". Im curious to see the flame front pattern, the carbon "swirl" on top of the piston thats been run. I believe that would explain a lot as to how the combustion process is affected by the "grooves".
 

IwantMKIII

WVU MAEngineering
Jun 12, 2007
2,477
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Perkasie, PA
I'd love to see some imagery/video of this inside the combustion chamber. From even a basic engineering aspect, i find it hard to believe some of the gains people are supposedly seeing without a more reliable source with more data. My guess would be the majority of people who submitted major improvements were in the middle of some type of new build/rebuild and that caused such results. I know i wouldn't pull my head to cut random gashes into it unless it was off for a good reason; when it comes to engine internals or major engine overhaul/work for me i try to take the 'if it ain't broke don't fix it' approach.

And as IJ said, those grooves are just asking for trouble on high powered engines. Without properly smoothing the cuts (which i don't see much of any smoothing if ever even attempted in the pictures) i can only assume fracturing would occur leading to failure on high power applications. Tools are smoothed to a good shine for a reason, and not just for visual stimulation.
 

Poodles

I play with fire
Jul 22, 2006
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Fort Worth, TX
40% increase in fuel economy? Bullshit, the combustion even is 98% efficent in burning ALL the fuel.

It's not possible to see 40% increases, it's pure and utter bullshit.
 

IwantMKIII

WVU MAEngineering
Jun 12, 2007
2,477
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Perkasie, PA
Poodles;1035374 said:
40% increase in fuel economy? Bullshit, the combustion even is 98% efficent in burning ALL the fuel.

It's not possible to see 40% increases, it's pure and utter bullshit.


Oh, its definately possible to increase MPG by 40% in any gas/deisel engine. Combustion engines are extremely inefficient, its just that no one has figured out how to yet....and its definately not possible just by adding a couple of groves to a head...:nono:

like i said though, it was probably done by someone who was doing a complete engine overhaul. especially if he threw in some new 02 sensors