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Thread: Oil Analysis - Post your VOA and UOA Here

  1. #1
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    Default Oil Analysis - Post your VOA and UOA Here

    Jdub,

    I decided to change the oil early on my MKIV. Something just didn't feel "right" about the way she was running. After the change she seemed to smooth out again, but I know how the placebo effect works with this stuff...

    I sent the oil out for testing. Here's what they came back with:



    Have anything to add to that analysis?
    >>I will no longer respond to tech questions via PM. If you have a question, put it on the forum so everyone benefits from the answer.<<


    Mike "Nightmare" Donohue

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    Since the beginning of recorded history, which is defined by the invention of writing by the Sumerians around 6,000 years ago, historians have cataloged over 3700 supernatural beings, of which 2870 can be considered deities. I donít believe in 2,870 gods, and you donít believe in 2,869. You're nearly as much of an Atheist as I am.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jetjock View Post
    If you drive like that on public streets I won't be disappointed if, as long as you were alone, they one day hose you out of a twisted mass of smoking metal into a bucket and melt what's left of your car down into tuna cans.

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Oil Test Resuls

    I'll take a shot at it Mike. I've interpreted a few of these in my time

    Not bad for one test but you really need trend to know what's going on. Silicon is high. Normally that might be attributable to sealant or the antifoaming agent used in some oils but with the high Al to go along with it I agree with them. Running an K&N or some other performance filter? Otherwise the oil held up pretty well. Not much shearing, you could've gone much further on it. Fuel dilution looks great too, as does coolant. Is that RP SM rated? The phosphorus seems to indicate it is. I also thought RP had more moly in it but guess not. Maybe it's RedLine I'm thinking of. That said I've never been a fan of RP because of the add pack.

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    Default Re: Oil Test Resuls

    According to RP's website, the 5W-30 is a SL/GF-3 oil. It does not have a lot of moly in it...Red Line is much higher.

    I was going to make the same comment as JJ about the silicon...I do believe RP uses a silicon based anti-foaming agent. But the high Al and slightly high Fe leads me to believe its wear due to dust/dirt getting past the air filter. What kind of air filter are you using? Here's some more info on silicon levels in oil:
    http://www.blackstone-labs.com/the_silicon_bugaboo.html

    The rest looks great...no fuel or coolant is a big plus! Did you have a TBN done on the sample? TBN will tell a lot about what kind of useful life is left on the oil. Take a look at this:
    http://www.blackstone-labs.com/do_i_need_a_tbn_.html

    Another suggestion...have a VOA (virgin oil analysis) done on this oil to include TBN. That way you will have a starting point to judge the values.
    I will no longer respond to tech questions via PM. If you have a question, put it on the forum so everyone benefits from the answer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Supracentral
    However I still stand by my statement that 99 times out of 100, the weak link in the MKIII is the owner.
    Quote Originally Posted by jetjock
    I swear, it's like talking to an amoeba...


    Want to know about oil...read this:
    Motor Oil 101 - Dr AE Haas


    "Life is like a jar of Jalapeno Peppers
    What you do today, might Burn Your Ass Tomorrow"

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Oil Test Results

    Quote Originally Posted by jdmk3_87t
    Whoa...I never knew you could send your used motor oil for diagnostic testing. Thats way too hardcore for me. Still very neat!

    Tells you an awful lot about what's going on in your motor. On the $$$ side, it also tells you when your oil really needs to be changed vs. the 3,000 mile OCI that is pushed by the various shops. A true syn oil (like RP) can go 8,000 miles easy without doing analysis...if you do like SC does, you can go 12,000 to 15,000 miles based on what is happening in your motor.

    Consider this: If you use high quality oil and filter and change every 3000 miles, it will cost you $40 each time...that's $120 over a 12,000 mile period. Blackstone analysis costs $34 (including TBN & postage) and you do it every 4000 miles...that's $102 over the same mileage interval. Plus (a very big plus), you can tell if the oil you are using is suited to your motor based on wear metals and how the oil holds up in terms of additive pack/viscosity. And you don't contribute to the profit margin of the major oil companies

    The Blackstone kit is free:
    http://www.blackstone-labs.com/free_test_kit.html

    Standard analysis cost $22.50 and TBN (highly recommended) is an additional $10....postage for the sample via USPS costs $1.59 You want to take the sample after draining a small amount of oil or take it directly from the dipstick tube. Here's the procedure:
    http://www.blackstone-labs.com/gas_sampling.html

    You want to send in a virgin sample 1st (VOA) to get the baseline for the oil you are using. Then send in a used sample (UOA) for analysis. Like JJ said, one sample is not going to ID a trend...it will take several samples to see if a certain oil is what you want to use.

    This little gizmo makes it easy to take samples:
    http://www.supramania.com/forums/showthread.php?t=38929
    I will no longer respond to tech questions via PM. If you have a question, put it on the forum so everyone benefits from the answer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Supracentral
    However I still stand by my statement that 99 times out of 100, the weak link in the MKIII is the owner.
    Quote Originally Posted by jetjock
    I swear, it's like talking to an amoeba...


    Want to know about oil...read this:
    Motor Oil 101 - Dr AE Haas


    "Life is like a jar of Jalapeno Peppers
    What you do today, might Burn Your Ass Tomorrow"

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    Default Re: Oil Test Results

    A database of virgin oil sample analyses would be nice (since theorectically the specific oil brand/weight/additive should remain fairly constant).

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    Default Oil Analysis - Post your VOA and UOA Here

    Would standard "bottom end" bearing material be elevated if a stock CT rapidly went south over the course of an OCI?

    I could post my UOA, however I'm afraid there are more things going on and exceed "normal" conditions. I don't think it would be a fair comparison for the oil if someone were to research UOAs.
    -Colin

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    Default Re: UOA: Turbo bearing material?

    Quote Originally Posted by mkIIIman089 View Post
    Would standard "bottom end" bearing material be elevated if a stock CT rapidly went south over the course of an OCI?
    It shouldn't be. Stock turbo bearing failure puts brass into the oil if I remember correctly. (Someone correct me if I'm wrong on that... It's been a while...)

    Quote Originally Posted by mkIIIman089 View Post
    I could post my UOA, however I'm afraid there are more things going on and exceed "normal" conditions. I don't think it would be a fair comparison for the oil if someone were to research UOAs.
    Post it up, I think you probably have something else going on in the motor. What caused the turbo to fail? That's your real question.

    Also what oil? How long is the OCI? Anything else going on with the motor we should know about?
    >>I will no longer respond to tech questions via PM. If you have a question, put it on the forum so everyone benefits from the answer.<<


    Mike "Nightmare" Donohue

    "Stupidity is permanent and often fatal, Ignorance is curable with education..." -- Me

    Frequently Asked Supra Questions: Rod Knock - HKS WG Springs - Injector Sizing - What is A/R? - Buy a TSRM - HKS HG FAQ - AFPR - Machinist - Overboring - Vac Diags - Motor Oil - Seafoam - Spark Plugs - Air Filters - V6 vs. I6 - Solder vs. Crimp Connectors - How to make power - Stroker Motors - Unreliable 7M's? - Piston Slap - Home made race fuel - Budgeting a build - Tuning and Vf

    Frequently Asked Forum Questions: What will get you banned? - Posting and you - Ideals - Membership - Usage - BBCode - Smiles - Scammers - How to make thumbnails - History

    Other Bullshit: Global Warming - Global Warming Facts - Religion & Politics - Collectivism -War On Drugs - Founding fathers were Diests - Religion and The Constitution - Size of the Federal Gov't - Canadian Healthcare - Socialists -European opinons of the U.S. - U.S. standard of living - U.S. - the worlds best customer - Modern Education - A Government created problem - Environmentalism is a big problem - Taxes - Socialism death toll - Can't afford healthcare? - I am my own god - Atlas will shrug - Not paying a "fair share"? - Income taxes are not a necessity - How to succeed, a 60 second lesson - How a liberal approaches facts. - Who is responsible for the financial crisis? - You asked for it. - Understanding Women - Understanding Men - Personal question? Answer is probably here. - Why I carry a gun. - Fuck the rich? - US Politics in a nutshell - The one principle that matters - Why anarchy is a fools errand - This is what it feels like to be me. - Living an awesome life - The crash is coming

    Since the beginning of recorded history, which is defined by the invention of writing by the Sumerians around 6,000 years ago, historians have cataloged over 3700 supernatural beings, of which 2870 can be considered deities. I donít believe in 2,870 gods, and you donít believe in 2,869. You're nearly as much of an Atheist as I am.

    Government is a good thing: Through correct principles, I govern myself.

    Public Notice: Contrary to popular belief, I do not consider everybody who disagrees with me to have brain damage. Those who don't have brain damage will be able to explain and justify their points of view in a logically defensible way. That's the way the Rational Discourse game is played. If you don't want to play the Rational Discourse Game, don't expect anybody (least of all me) to take you seriously.

    Quote Originally Posted by jetjock View Post
    If you drive like that on public streets I won't be disappointed if, as long as you were alone, they one day hose you out of a twisted mass of smoking metal into a bucket and melt what's left of your car down into tuna cans.

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    Default Re: UOA: Turbo bearing material?



    -The reason for the relatively thin oil and very long OCI were simply because I was curious to see what would happen.

    -It would seem that I have a trickle of a BHG or something going on for coolant contamination. It appears to very slowly be getting worse compared to other UOAs. Those, however, were at roughly half this interval.

    -What killed the turbo most likely was just abuse from running more boost. I think, at least.

    -Makeup oil is from a large oil leak... which to my amazement does not seem to be coming from any shaft seal, o-ring, or valve cover near the oily area. (from just above the water pump - down)
    -Colin

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    Default Re: UOA: Turbo bearing material?

    Your wear metals are high and it looks like it's a direct result of coolant in the oil. Turbo failure *could increase* iron and copper, but the rest indicate bearing wear from damage caused by the coolant. You are getting some fuel dilution as well, indicating blowby on your rings. Both are excellent reasons to change oil more often as Blackstone suggested to keep coolant/fuel levels down in the oil.

    I would run a thicker version of RL (5W-30) due to this wear (your bearing clearances are opening up) and change more often like the analysis suggested. You might consider changing to an oil like German Castrol (0W-30) that's thicker at ops temp.

    Is your PCV system in good shape?
    What filter are you using and how often are you changing it?

    Edit: merged threads with the same subject
    I will no longer respond to tech questions via PM. If you have a question, put it on the forum so everyone benefits from the answer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Supracentral
    However I still stand by my statement that 99 times out of 100, the weak link in the MKIII is the owner.
    Quote Originally Posted by jetjock
    I swear, it's like talking to an amoeba...


    Want to know about oil...read this:
    Motor Oil 101 - Dr AE Haas


    "Life is like a jar of Jalapeno Peppers
    What you do today, might Burn Your Ass Tomorrow"

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Oil Analysis - Post your VOA and UOA Here

    Quote Originally Posted by mkIIIman089 View Post
    I have switched to GC, and plan on resampling in 4k miles.

    As you suspected my #3 piston's rings are shot.

    It was an Amsoil EaO, each oil change. Now the Mobil 1 that came with the GC sale, and will be changed with the oil.

    Fuel dilution - I'm still well below the recommended spec on the analysis, but you say it's high?
    Fuel dilution is not that high, but it is a contributing factor...it will thin the oil more than you want at ops temp. With coolant in the oil, it can (and seems to be in this case) cause bearing wear.

    Amsoil EaO filters are excellant...probably the best filter out there.

    Good plan on the next analysis...you want to do them about every 3-4000 miles. You might want to take one a bit sooner to see what's happening with the coolant issue. Also, get a TBN done if you plan on using extended drain intervals.


    Quote Originally Posted by mkIIIman089 View Post
    My plan from here on out was to start using more easily attainable/less expensive oils. As systematically analyzing them as I could to find which performs best, so TBN was going to be included in my next sample.

    I don't doubt that EaO filters are very good (best?), but the price premium you pay for the best is out of my range right now. As is just fixing all of these mechanical issues.

    In adddition, you said I should bump up the viscosity some. I did but only because it was the only grade that is highly regarded, if the increased wear was changing bearing clearances enough to need a thicker oil, would I notice a pressure drop?

    I'm sure you know your stuff, but after reading AE Haas a while back, I can only question recommended viscosity increases to know the exact reason behind it.
    You're dead on about the price on the EaO filters...they are the best, but justifying the cost is hard to swallow. That is the reason I don't use them

    With increased bearing clearances due to wear, you may or may not see a pressure drop. Even more so on a 7M turbo due to the way the stock filter head/cooler loop and oil squirters bleed pressure above ~40 psi. Thicker oil at ops temp will help fill that increased clearance and provide *some* protection to the bearings due to increased boundary layer lubrication a thicker oil provides.

    Notice I said "ops temp"...GC flows very well cold, but is closer a 40W at 100 deg C. It's an excellent combination for the motors you see in a Supra. These motors (7M, 1J, 2J) are a bit dated when it comes to the tolerances the companies are building to now, that's why you see a 0W-20 spec'ed for the new engines...close bearing clearances and fuel savings. A xxW-30 is more appropriate for our engines...a little thicker if it's showing wear. GC fits this bill nicely
    I will no longer respond to tech questions via PM. If you have a question, put it on the forum so everyone benefits from the answer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Supracentral
    However I still stand by my statement that 99 times out of 100, the weak link in the MKIII is the owner.
    Quote Originally Posted by jetjock
    I swear, it's like talking to an amoeba...


    Want to know about oil...read this:
    Motor Oil 101 - Dr AE Haas


    "Life is like a jar of Jalapeno Peppers
    What you do today, might Burn Your Ass Tomorrow"

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