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Thread: Can Royal Purple with LSD additive in R154 cause harder shifts?

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    Default Can Royal Purple with LSD additive in R154 cause harder shifts?

    I recently changed from regular gear oil to Royal Purple synthetic grear oil in my diff and tranny, and it seems much notchier when shifting, as if the syncrhos are not working as well as before. The bottle said it contained an additive for LSD (limited slip differentials). Since these additives reduce friction between non-metallic surfaces such as diff clutch plates, can they also negatively impact the way the transmission synchros work?


    Quote Originally Posted by Evilempire1.3JZ-GTE
    I dont know I used Red Line as other people recommend for toyotas I heard nothing but positive for the rear diff on royal purps quality.

    Quote Originally Posted by BigTree
    I put royal purple top gear in my tranny and diff. Everything seems super smooth to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kckazdude
    I would not recomend RP Max-Gear in the tranny. Should have used Synchromax instead.

    Quote Originally Posted by johnathan1
    Whoa, why would you put LSD additive in your transmission?

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    Default Re: Can Royal Purple with LSD additive in R154 cause harder shifts?

    This is what I don't like about RP gear oils. The Max Gear can be used in a manual tranny (you can get the correct viscosity), but it contains friction modifiers...what you are experiencing is the friction modifiers in RP Max Gear freeing up gunked up synchros. This gear oil is too slippery for proper synchro engagement in a healthy tranny.

    Synchomax is recommended for manual transmissions that specify automatic transmission fluid, multi-viscosity motor oil or straight grade motor oil...Synchromax is much lower viscosity (less than half at ops temp) than what the TRSM calls for (an 80W-90). Personally, I would not use it in either a W58 or R154...it's simply too thin.

    Red Line 75W-90NS (no friction modifiers) is a good choice...Red Line MT-90 is a better choice. MT-90 is specifically formulated for manual trannys and meets the TRSM viscosity spec. Both have a high viscosity index that provides a consistent viscosity across the operating temp range for the tranny.

    BTW - did you add Bi-Tron to the RP? Not a good idea...it can upset the balance of the friction modifiers in the RP. You don't want to use any additive of any type in the gear oil for a tranny or LSD.
    I will no longer respond to tech questions via PM. If you have a question, put it on the forum so everyone benefits from the answer.

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    However I still stand by my statement that 99 times out of 100, the weak link in the MKIII is the owner.
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    Default Re: Can Royal Purple with LSD additive in R154 cause harder shifts?

    Quote Originally Posted by jdub
    Synchomax is recommended for manual transmissions that specify automatic transmission fluid, multi-viscosity motor oil or straight grade motor oil...Synchromax is much lower viscosity (less than half at ops temp) than what the TRSM calls for (an 80W-90). Personally, I would not use it in either a W58 or R154...it's simply too thin.
    Well ignore my post then. Never knew the specs for the 5 spd trannies. Still cant say I recommend the Max-Gear for trannies though.


    Quote Originally Posted by jdub
    than what the TRSM calls for (an 80W-90). Personally, I would not use it in either a W58 or R154...it's simply too thin.

    Quote Originally Posted by lagged
    pretty sure its 75w90.


    Quote Originally Posted by lagged
    pretty sure its 75w90.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Lange
    75W90 or 80W90 for W58
    75W90 for R154

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    Default Re: Can Royal Purple with LSD additive in R154 cause harder shifts?

    Quote Originally Posted by johnathan1
    Whoa, why would you put LSD additive in your transmission?
    I didn't add it, it was already in the RP gear fluid which said it was OK for use in manual transmissions.

    Quote Originally Posted by johnathan1
    Tekdeus, why don't you have Bi-Tron in your sig anymore?
    Awaiting further test results.


    Quote Originally Posted by Nick M
    Borg Warner, who built the all popular T5 and now T56, had used Dexron/Mercon in the T5 for some time. It shifts pretty well like that. Maybe somebody wants to try it in the R series.

    Quote Originally Posted by drbowser3
    I used Royal Purple in my R154, the tranny has since died. We believe the thrust washer is toast. Not sure if RP was the culprit. But it did seem thin.

    Quote Originally Posted by Poodles
    it smoothed out my failing second gear... but second gear is going still, and it's no longer helping...

    I'd run redline to see if it helped, but I can't find it locally (MVP has it, but he's a good drive away...)

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    Default Re: Can Royal Purple with LSD additive in R154 cause harder shifts?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Lange
    75W90 or 80W90 for W58
    75W90 for R154
    Interesting...my '89 TRSM shows 75W-90 or 80W-90 for both manual trannys

    In any case, the point is Synchomax is much too thin for either tranny. Max-Gear will work, but the friction modifiers can cause problems with the syncros on a tight tranny. IMO, the improvements guys see using either RP product come from freeing up worn syncros...the tranny is on the way out and the frictions modifiers grant a reprieve. It's not a matter of if the tranny is going to fail, it's when. But if it works and puts it off for a while, it's a viable technique...I'd save up for a new tranny or a re-build though

    Red Line MT-90 is a much better choice for a tranny working as it should.

    Tekdeus - You did add the Bi-Tron to the tranny oil huh?
    I will no longer respond to tech questions via PM. If you have a question, put it on the forum so everyone benefits from the answer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Supracentral
    However I still stand by my statement that 99 times out of 100, the weak link in the MKIII is the owner.
    Quote Originally Posted by jetjock
    I swear, it's like talking to an amoeba...


    Want to know about oil...read this:
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    Default Re: Can Royal Purple with LSD additive in R154 cause harder shifts?

    I don't know what the R154 calls for offhand as far as fluid type, probably GL4 gear oil, but I do know that any GL5 fluid such as GM's synchromesh and I believe royal purple will react with bronze parts in the transmission.

    a bunch of Z31 guys have been running into transmission problems some time after they switched to a GL5 fluid...but I could be wrong.


    Quote Originally Posted by johnathan1
    So if the tranny has lots of miles, and worn synchros...SynchroMax is the best choice because it contains friction modifiers?

    And if the transmission isn't worn out, then Redline MT-90 is the way to go?

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    Default Re: Can Royal Purple with LSD additive in R154 cause harder shifts?

    GL-4 and GL-5 are the API specifications for gear oil:
    - API GL-1, GL-2, and GL-6 are inactive.
    - API Category GL-4 designates the type of service characteristic of spiral-bevel and hypoid gears in automotive axles operated under moderate speeds and loads. These oils may be used in selected manual transmission and transaxle applications.
    - API Category GL-5 designates the type of service characteristic of gears, particularly hypoids in automotive axles under high-speed and/or low-speed, high-torque conditions. Lubricants qualified under U.S. Military specification MIL-L-2105D (formerly MIL-L-2015C), MIL-PRF-2105E and SAE J2360 satisfy the requirements of the API GL-5 service designation.

    GL-4 and GL-5 products typically use the same extreme pressure additive system, with GL-5 having about twice the concentration of a GL-4. Too much of this additive could cause excessive chemical corrosion of the gear surface. If a GL-5 gear oil is used in a application where GL-4 gear oil only is called for, chemical corrosion of "yellow metal" components may occur, such as bronze synchronizers, brass bushings, etc. This may lead to shifting difficulties or shortened tranny life.

    In the R154 and W58 transmissions, either GL-4 or GL-5 gear oil is allowed. In gearboxes where a GL-4 *only* is specified, Wingman is correct...using a GL-5 oil can cause damage to the tranny.

    Johnathan - What I'm saying here is using RP Synchromax in a tranny with shifting problems *may* help...I'm not recommending it for use in a tranny that is functioning normally. Synchromax has a viscosity of 35.3 cst at 40 deg C and 7.7 cst at 100 deg C...Max-Gear 75W-90 has a viscosity of 144.5 cst at 40 deg C and 21.0 cst at 100 deg C...Max-Gear 80W-90 has a viscosity of 150.3 cst at 40 deg C and 16.8 cst at 100 deg C. Both cold/warm viscosities are much higher than Synchromax and illustrate why a GL-4 or GL-5 gear oil is specified for our manual trannys....per the Red Line tech data sheet:

    With most lubricated components, the slipperier the better, but this is not so with manual transmissions. The synchronization of shifting gears requires friction to transfer energy from the synchronizer, which is locked to the input shaft, to its mating surface attached to the gear to be locked in as the drive gear. The drive gear is selected by using the shift forks to slide a synchronizer ring, which rotates at the same speed as the input shaft, in contact with the selected drive gear. Once the drive gear is brought to the same speed as the input shaft, the locking ring on the synchro assembly is allowed to slide over and lock into the drive gear. The time this process takes depends on how easily the synchro ring moves and the rate of frictional energy transfer between the two synchronizer surfaces. Higher viscosity lubricants slow the sliding of the synchro ring on the input shaft and require a longer time for the oil to be squeezed out from between the mating synchronizer surfaces. After the lubricant is squeezed out, the coefficient of friction of the lubricant determines the rate of frictional energy transfer between the two surfaces. Slippery lubricants such as hypoid gear oils (like RP Max-Gear) can take too long to synchronize the gears, which promotes synchronizer wear. Red Line MTL and MT-90 has a coefficient of friction which is greater than conventional oils, allowing a quicker transfer of frictional energy.
    The cliff notes version is the R154 and W58 trannys NEED a certain amount of friction to work properly. RP Max-Gear is *too* slippery to provide this friction...RP Synchromax is even more so. It is more an ATF type lubricant and thins out significantly at higher temps. IMO, these 2 gear oils are not well suited for our manual trannys...the success many guys have seen using these oils is due to the slippery characteristics of these gear oils "freeing up" (reducing friction) parts in the R154/W58 that are on the way to failure. This is not fixing the problem...that sound from your tranny is the sound of inevitably.

    The reason more modern trannys spec a gear oil like Synchromax (or GM's synchromesh) is to improve cold shifts. The thicker oils in a GL-4/5 category do not shift well at lower temps...they need to warm up. The problem is Synchromax does not have the extreme pressure protection, oil film thickness, and shear stability required...this will increase wear on the gears. Synchromax may help quiet down a worn R154/W58 for a while, but it is not really helping the problem...it's masking it.

    Just for comparison, Red Line 75W-90NS is a GL-5 and has a viscosity of 95.0 cst at 40 deg C and 15.6 cst at 100 deg C and Red Line MT-90 is a GL-4 75W-90 and has a viscosity of 90.0 cst at 40 deg C and 15.6 cst at 100 deg C. These two gear oils are almost identical in this respect...the difference is the additives...MT-90 is more suited to the R154/W58. The advantage of these are their low temp viscosities...it will help smooth out shifts until the oil gets warmed up.

    BTW - there are quite a few excellent GL-4 gear oils out there, all of with will work fine in a R154/W58...gear oils have a much easier time coping with the enviroment they work in vs motor oil. The biggest reason I like the Red line MT-90 for use in a R154/W58 is it's low temp viscosity characteristics. Especially in the R154...it's not the smoothest shifting tranny and will benefit the most from MT-90.

    As usual...the devil is in the details
    I will no longer respond to tech questions via PM. If you have a question, put it on the forum so everyone benefits from the answer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Supracentral
    However I still stand by my statement that 99 times out of 100, the weak link in the MKIII is the owner.
    Quote Originally Posted by jetjock
    I swear, it's like talking to an amoeba...


    Want to know about oil...read this:
    Motor Oil 101 - Dr AE Haas


    "Life is like a jar of Jalapeno Peppers
    What you do today, might Burn Your Ass Tomorrow"

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Can Royal Purple with LSD additive in R154 cause harder shifts?

    And that is why Dexron also works.


    Quote Originally Posted by jdub
    In the R154 and W58 transmissions, either GL-4 or GL-5 gear oil is allowed. In gearboxes where a GL-4 *only* is specified, Wingman is correct...using a GL-5 oil can cause damage to the tranny.

    Quote Originally Posted by wingman
    thanks for clearing that up! I've always been curious, but never looked too deep into the subject.

    Quote Originally Posted by Poodles
    thanks for the info jdub, I know my tranny is one it's way out, it doesn't like to go into first unless I'm stopped, an second gear grinds pretty bad.

    I had normal gear oil in it before and it was hard as hell to get into second, so it did help a bit, but I know it needs a rebuild...

    Quote Originally Posted by Evilempire1.3JZ-GTE
    By the way if your looking for readline i bought mine from summit racing got it cheap and fast!

    Summit is a good source since most places dont have it i paid about ~7 per quart and well worth it.
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    Default Re: Can Royal Purple with LSD additive in R154 cause harder shifts?

    Kept this thread for future reference...Cleaned it up for brevity


    After running through the Nashman translator

    Quote Originally Posted by NashMan
    I have always ran MT-90 in all my trannies except one when I ran ShockProof in one because of a grinding issue, went away afterwards on my W58 tranny

    But it was just band-aid and such
    I will no longer respond to tech questions via PM. If you have a question, put it on the forum so everyone benefits from the answer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Supracentral
    However I still stand by my statement that 99 times out of 100, the weak link in the MKIII is the owner.
    Quote Originally Posted by jetjock
    I swear, it's like talking to an amoeba...


    Want to know about oil...read this:
    Motor Oil 101 - Dr AE Haas


    "Life is like a jar of Jalapeno Peppers
    What you do today, might Burn Your Ass Tomorrow"

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    Default Re: Can Royal Purple with LSD additive in R154 cause harder shifts?

    Quote Originally Posted by tekdeus
    What's the best way to flush out as much of the old RP gear oil as possible? Is getting it hot and draining it for a long time sufficient?

    That should do it
    I will no longer respond to tech questions via PM. If you have a question, put it on the forum so everyone benefits from the answer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Supracentral
    However I still stand by my statement that 99 times out of 100, the weak link in the MKIII is the owner.
    Quote Originally Posted by jetjock
    I swear, it's like talking to an amoeba...


    Want to know about oil...read this:
    Motor Oil 101 - Dr AE Haas


    "Life is like a jar of Jalapeno Peppers
    What you do today, might Burn Your Ass Tomorrow"

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