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Thread: Hard Start, stalling, stumbling when hot

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    Default Hard Start, stalling, stumbling when hot

    Hi Guys, I could use some opinions on this problem, I have done many searches about this problem, and most threads end with no solution. The problem is the car is hard to start when hot. It starts and runs smooth when cold, but after running awhile then stopping, shutting engine off, come back about 30 minutes later, it cranks fine, but takes more time, then when it catches, it may run stumbling for a few seconds and stalls, this may happen a few times until I get it to run, usually by goosing the gas pedal a bit until it smooths out. When the temps are near 90, it may take 8 to 10 times to get it going. If i come back after stopping in just a few minutes, no problems. Just after about 30 minutes or more. When it cools down, then it starts fine again. I When I had my 86.5 NA supra back from 1986-2002 the car did the same thing after it got about 50k miles on it. I took it to the dealer, they fixed it, and it was fine for the rest of the time i owned it. I wish I knew what they did to it. But now my 87 turbo is doing it. The car has 65k miles on it. I have checked codes, no codes. Timing is right on, tps is right on, Throttle body and afm are clean, Connections are clean and tight, Battery and starter and cables are good and clean. I believe the issue is "Heat Soak", and my feeling is that the VSV for FPR may be not functioning properly. If I understand the thing right, it is supposed to allow vacumm to go to the fpr except when starting a hot car, then it is supposed to allow atmospheric air to go to the fpr to allow it to make higher pressure to alleviate "Heat Soak". Is that the way it works. If I pull it out and test and clean it do you think that will cure the problem. I would do it on general principles , but it is located where it is a pita to get out.
    Thanks for any help--Semper Fi

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    Default Re: Hard Start, stalling, stumbling when hot

    I believe you are on the right track. Sounds exactly like heat soak is causing fuel vaporization and vapor lock is occurring on the fuel rail. You can check the FPR itself and the rest pressure by following this: http://www.cygnusx1.net/Supra/Librar...aspx?S=FI&P=70

    If your fuel pressure is correct and not bleeding off when the car sits the fpr vsv is the next culprit.

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    Default Re: Hard Start, stalling, stumbling when hot

    ^ What he said. Check rest pressure. As for the FPU solenoid being hard to get you're over thinking it. Just pull the hose off the FPR and check for a lack of vacuum within 90 seconds of a hot start.
    In memory of Rimma Kiselitsa

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    Default Re: Hard Start, stalling, stumbling when hot

    Hello, thanks for the advice. I checked the fpu and cleaned it. It appears to be working as the manual describes.Fuel Pressures are within specs except during Heat Soak. In searching extensively on the web, I found this scenario, that I believe fits my and many others Hard Hot Start problem. TSB eng01189-2010 was written for 1985-88 22r-e and 22r-te engines in trucks and vans. It deals with Heat Soak Hard Start problems on the listed vehicles. Below is what it says.
    So I am trying to find the Temperature Coolant Switch Part # 894280-26020. It supposedly lowers the signal to engage from 213 degrees F, to 140 Degrees F, thereby engaging the FPU and CSI at lower engine coolant temps. Which should push the boiled fuel through and compress it enough to hot start smoothly. Problem is, the part is discontinued, and will it fit the Supra if I could find one. Or is there a replacement which fits the degree profile?
    Any opinions on this.
    Semper FI.
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    TECHNICAL ASSURANCE DEPARTMENT
    22RE, 22RTE HARD STARTING/ROUGH IDLE
    The following parts are now available to improve the startability and idle stability after a hot dead
    soak or an extended dead soak.
    MODIFICATION INFORMATION:
    CONDITION DESCRIPTION IMPROVEMENT
    Hard Starting/Rough Reduce the temperature where Temperature
    1 Idle after a Hot Dead Switch No. 2 activates the fuel pressure–up
    Soak of 15–30 minutes. system from 110􀀀C (230􀀀F) to 60􀀀C (140􀀀F).
    Hard Start/Long Crank Increase temperature at which the Start
    2 Time after an extended dead Injector Time Switch activates the cold start
    soak of 3 to 4 hours. injector from 35􀀀C (95􀀀F) to 45􀀀C (113􀀀F).
    YEAR/MODEL APPLICATION:
    CONDITION MODEL YEAR ENGINE VEHICLE
    1 1985-1987 22R-E 4WD TRUCK
    Temperature and
    Switch No. 2 1986-1987 22R-TE 4RUNNER
    2WD TRUCK
    2 1–TON TRUCK
    1985-1987 22R-E CAB/CHASSIS
    Cold Start 4WD TRUCK
    Injector 4RUNNER
    Time
    Switch 2WD TRUCK
    1985-1988 22R-TE 4WD TRUCK
    4RUNNER
    PART NUMBER INFORMATION:
    PREV P/N NEW P/N COND PART NAME
    89428–28030, 89428–26020-- 1 Switch, Temperature No. 2
    89462–30011, 89462–20050 --2 Switch, Start Injector Time

    TOYOTA
    SERVICE BULLETIN
    TOYOTA MOTOR SALES, U.S.A., INC.
    VOLUME
    10
    REFERENCE
    NUMBER
    DATE
    MODEL
    Page 1 of 3
    ENGINE
    011
    10–20–89
    RN
    TECHNICAL ASSURANCE DEPARTMENT
    Page 2 of 3
    22R-E, 22R-TE HARD STARTING/ROUGH IDLE (Cont'd)
    PRODUCTION CHANGE INFORMATION:
    CONDITION 1: Temperature Switch No. 2 specification (same as field fix)
    changed at beginning of 1988 model year.
    CONDITION 2: ECU modification at beginning of 1988 model year to activate
    cold start injector at higher temperature (22R–E only).
    REPAIR PROCEDURE:
    1. Replace cold start injector time switch with the new part.
    2. On vehicles equipped with a pressure–up system, (see application chart on page 1) also
    replace Temperature Switch No. 2 with the modified one.
    3. For vehicles equipped with Air Conditioning, the ACV terminal must be disconnected from
    the ECU when installing the modified Temperature Switch No. 2 (Condition 1). This is
    necessary to prevent the Engine Idle–Up from working continuously after warm–up.
    TECHNICAL ASSURANCE DEPARTMENT
    Page 3 of 3
    22R-E, 22R-TE HARD STARTING/ROUGH IDLE (Cont'd)
    HOW TO REMOVE THE WIRE TERMINAL
    1. Insert a miniature screwdriver from the open
    end. Move the locking clip to the unlocking
    direction ( ) and hold it in this position.
    – Do not apply excessive force to the terminal.
    – Do not pry the terminal with the screwdriver.
    2. Carefully remove the terminal without using
    excessive force.
    3. Wrap the removed wire terminal with
    electrical tape. Tuck the terminal into the
    harness protector and secure with electrical
    tape.

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    Default Re: Hard Start, stalling, stumbling when hot

    My opinion is your over thinking has gone from bad to worse...
    In memory of Rimma Kiselitsa

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    Default Re: Hard Start, stalling, stumbling when hot

    Quote Originally Posted by bestsupraever View Post
    I have done many searches about this problem, and most threads end with no solution.
    Case in point....
    Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.

    www.thereligionofpeace.com <------- stay in the know, religion drives political beliefs

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    Default Re: Hard Start, stalling, stumbling when hot

    bestsupraever: Let me help you out here.

    Forget The TSB for the 22RE. Delete it and forget it.

    Check your rest pressure. The fuel rail should keep fuel pressurized. If it doesn't stay pressurized, fuel boils, starting problems ensue. The temp switches, FPU and FPR will not overcome a loss in this pressure.

    Read this:

    http://www.supramania.com/forums/sho...Start-Problems

    Again, check your rest pressure or try jumpering the terminals to use the fuel pump to pressurize the system. Read JetJock's thread above.

    Keep it simple.

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    Default Re: Hard Start, stalling, stumbling when hot

    Thanks for the advice. I haven't had the time or energy to do much more on this problem since I last posted, but today I am going to dig into this further, and come up with a solution. In a few days I will post whatever I find whether it is a solution or another dead end street.
    Thanks again--Semper Fi

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    Default Re: Hard Start, stalling, stumbling when hot

    Hi Guys, made a little progress on the problem. First I installed a new Coolant Temp Sensor. I checked it at 3 different temps using heated water and a meat thermometer. It checked out right within Toyota specs, after installation the problem did not change, I didn't thing it would but at least I now have eliminated that possible problem. I also flushed, drained and refilled the cooling system with the required long life coolant from the dealer while installing the sensor. I also flushed and refilled the brake fluid after installing a cardone reman master cylinder. The problem was a sinking pedal at stop. The new master fixed it and the pedal is now firm and stable. But now back to the original problem, hard to start hot.

    I ran across a TSB # VOL 10 ENG 010 dated 09-01-1989. It states
    Condition--Hard Start/long crank time after dead soak when coolant temp is above 22*c (72*F).
    Application--1986 to 1989 Supra/Cressida with 7m-ge or 7m-gte.
    Correction--Modified Cold Start Time Switch. Operating Temp Prev=72*F --New 113*F.
    Part No Prev=89462-40010 New Modified # 89462-20050.
    I will also mention an additional TSB # Vol 10 Eng 024 Dated 08-31-1990 was issued to address the 1989-1990 models. It requires a different modified time switch #89462-20060 or a new reprogrammed ECU modified to work with the old unmodified time switch for better startability, and driveability.
    I also tested the fuel pressures, below are the results.
    Key On ==36 PSI,
    Regulator disconnected at idle ==36 PSI
    Reconnected Regulator==29 PSI
    Key Off @ 10 Minutes Later==26 PSI
    Key Off @ 20 Minutes Later --26 PSI.
    The technique used to check pressures was described in the Service Manual. The pressures were well within specs. So I am concluding that the Pump, Injectors and regulator are working within specs.
    Talking with the Toyota parts man about the availability of the TSB mentioned modified CSI TIMER at first was bad news, but after he dug into it for a while he found one in CA. He said there were about 5 left in the country that he could find. Needless to say I ordered one, and it is on it's way to me. I will pop it in next week and hope for the best. I am only about 50% convinced that this will solve the problem, but I am willing to give it a try as my research hasn't come up with a better idea yet. The previous CSI switch has "22" stamped on it, the New Modified one has "45" stamped on it. It basically tells the injector to activate up to 113*F instead of 72*F. My Feeling is that the temp in a heat soaked engine will be way above 112*F, so the switch won't activate anyway. But as I said it was worth it to me to try it. . My next endeavor while I am waiting for the switch, will be to take the AFM out and clean it with CRC Mass Airflow Cleaner, as I have seen some cases where a dirty AFM could cause a heat soaked engine to hard start. I know to be super careful to not touch the wires in it at all.
    All opinions are welcome--Thank In Advance.
    Semper Fi.

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    Default Re: Hard Start, stalling, stumbling when hot


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