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Thread: Dealing with the "oldschool" guys (or: How to ask smart questions..)

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    Exclamation Dealing with the "oldschool" guys (or: How to ask smart questions..)

    Dealing with the "oldschool" guys
    (or: How to ask smart questions..)

    Introduction

    In the world of import automotive high performance, the kind of answers you get to your technical questions depends as much (or more) on the way you ask the questions as it does on the difficulty of developing the answer. This guide will teach you how to ask questions in a way more likely to get you a satisfactory answer.

    Now that modding import vehicles has become widespread, you can often get as good answers from other, more experienced owners without the need to bug the "oldschool" guys. This is a Good Thing; people who are "newer owners" tend to be just a little bit more tolerant of the kind of failures newbies often have. Still, treating experienced users like "oldschool" in the ways we recommend here will generally be the most effective way to get useful answers out of them as well.

    The first thing to understand is that a lot of the technical people you'll find around here actually like hard problems and good, thought-provoking questions about them. If we didn't, we wouldn't be here. If you give us an interesting question to chew on we'll be grateful to you; good questions are a stimulus and a gift. Good questions help us develop our understanding, and often reveal problems we might not have noticed or thought about otherwise. "Good question!" is a strong and sincere compliment.

    Despite this, a lot of us oldschool guys have a reputation for meeting simple questions with what looks like hostility or arrogance. It sometimes looks like we're reflexively rude to newbies and the ignorant. But this isn't really true.

    What we are, unapologetically, is hostile to people who seem to be unwilling to think or to do their own homework before asking a question. People like that are time sinks - they take without giving back, and they waste time we could have spent on another question more interesting and another person more worthy of an answer.

    We realize that there are many people who just want to drive the car, and who have no interest in learning technical details. For most people, a car is merely transportation, a means to an end; they have more important things to do and lives to live. We acknowledge that, and don't expect everyone to take an interest in the technical matters that fascinate us. Nevertheless, our style of answering questions is tuned for people who do take such an interest and are willing to be active participants in problem-solving. That's not going to change. Nor should it; if it did, we would become less effective at the things we do best.

    We're volunteers. We take time out of busy lives to answer questions, and at times we're overwhelmed with them. So we filter what we answer. In particular, we don't reply to questions from people who appear to be "time sinks" in order to spend our question-answering time more efficiently, On people who will use the information we provide & will learn from it...

    If you find this attitude obnoxious, condescending, or arrogant, check your assumptions. We're not asking you to genuflect to us -- in fact, most of us would love nothing more than to deal with you as an equal and welcome you into our culture, if you put in the effort required to make that possible. But it's simply not efficient or practical for us to try to help people who are not willing to help themselves. It's OK to be ignorant; it's not OK to be stupid.

    So, while it isn't necessary to already be technically competent with the car to get attention from us, it is necessary to demonstrate the kind of attitude that leads to competence - alert, thoughtful, observant, willing to be an active partner in developing a solution. If you can't live with this sort of discrimination, we suggest you stop working on the Supra, sell it and buy a Honda Civic (they are cheap & reliable if left stock) instead of asking us to personally donate help to you.

    If you decide to come to us for help, you don't want to be one of the "time-sinks". You don't want to seem like one, either. The best way to get a rapid and responsive answer is to ask it like a person with smarts, confidence, and clues who just happens to need help on one particular problem.

    (Improvements to this guide are welcome. You can PM me suggestions. Note however that this document is not intended to be a general guide to netiquette, and I will generally reject suggestions that are not specifically related to eliciting useful answers in our forum.)

    Before You Ask

    Before asking a question do the following:
    • Try to find an answer by searching this website.
    • Try to find an answer by reading the TSRM. If you don't have one, buy one, you are going to need it.
    • Try to find an answer by reading our FAQ section.
    • Try to find an answer by inspection or experimentation.
    • Try to find an answer by asking a skilled friend.

    When you post your question, display the fact that you have done these things first; this will help establish that you're not being a lazy sponge and wasting people's time. Better yet, display what you have learned from doing these things. We like answering questions for people who have demonstrated they can learn from the answers.

    Search! This might well take you straight to a thread answering your question. Even if it doesn't, saying "I searched on the following phrase but didn't get anything that looked promising" is a good thing to include in your post requesting help.

    Prepare your question. Think it through. Hasty-sounding questions get hasty answers, or none at all. The more you do to demonstrate that having put thought and effort into solving your problem before seeking help, the more likely you are to actually get top shelf help.

    Beware of asking the wrong question. If you ask one that is based on faulty assumptions, someone is quite likely to reply with a uselessly literal answer while thinking "Stupid question...", and hoping the experience of getting what you asked for rather than what you needed will teach you a lesson.

    Never assume you are entitled to an answer. You are not; you don't pay us for the service. However you can (and will) earn an answer, by asking a substantial, interesting, and thought-provoking question - one that implicitly contributes to the experience of the community rather than merely passively demanding knowledge from others.

    On the other hand, making it clear that you are able and willing to help in the process of developing the solution is a very good start. "Would someone provide a pointer?", "What test am I missing?", and "What should I have searched for?" are more likely to get answered than "Please post the exact procedure I should use." because in the former examples you're making it clear that you're truly willing to complete the process if someone can just point you in the right direction. In the last you want someone to read you the manual. Go buy one.

    How to search:

    Search with key words related to your issue. Read the threads that are returned. Modify your search to include new terms you learned from the previous results. This will yield more/different results. Do this, until you have exhausted the variety of terms applicable, and you may just find the answer before you make a new thread. This works on forum searches and Google searches. Try it.

    Choose your forum carefully

    Be selective in choosing where you post your question. You are likely to be ignored, or written off as a waste of time, if you:
    • post your question to a forum where it's off topic
    • post a very elementary question to a forum where advanced technical questions are expected, or vice-versa
    • cross-post to multiple forums.

    A lot of us blow off questions that are inappropriately targeted in order to try to protect our communications channels from being drowned in irrelevance. Some people will remember the poster, and classify them as a waste of time. You don't want this to happen to you.

    By the way, that last item on the punch list up there brings up a point worth making. We're ALL on the same forums. I'm on SF, SM and just about every other forum out there. If I see your question posted on 5 different forums, I'm less likely to answer it. Here's why. I don't want to put 45 minutes of my time into answering a post on SF if, for example, Dr Jonez is answering it over here. Pick the forum that most closely matches your style and technical level and post it one damned place please.

    The first step, therefore, is to find the right topic area here at SM. Again, searching is your friend. Use it to find information about what is giving you difficulties. Check the FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) list. Posting on this, or any forum is the final place to go for help, if your own efforts (including reading those FAQs you found and that manual you bought) do not find you a solution.. Think about it, when you post out here, you make your problem our problem, and we don't mind that, provided you have already tried to work it out yourself.

    Also while we're close to the topic, sending a PM to a person which you are not familiar with is risky at best. For example, do not assume that the author of an informative post wants to be your free consultant. Do not make optimistic guesses about whether your question will be welcome - if you're unsure, post it publicly, or refrain from sending it at all.

    When selecting a topic area verify your question is on-topic. Read some of the back traffic before posting so you'll get a feel for how things are done in that forum. Each topic area and its associated moderator has it's own style. In fact, it's a very good idea to do a keyword search for words relating to your problem before you post. It may find you an answer, and if not it will help you formulate a better question.

    Don't shotgun-blast mulitple topic areas at once, that's a violations of the forum rules and it REALLY irritates us admins... Find the right location and post once.

    Know what your topic is! One of the classic mistakes is asking questions about turbos in the N/A (non-turbo) section . If you don't understand why this is a blunder, you'd be best off not asking any questions at all until you get it.

    In general, questions to a well-selected topic area are more likely to get quality answers than equivalent questions to the wrong one. There are multiple reasons for this. One is simply the size of the pool of potential respondents. Another is the size of the audience; a guy who specializes in helping on turbo cars would rather answer questions in the turbo forum. He may not even read the N/A forum.

    Understandably, knowlegable members are already receiving more than their fair share of mis-targeted messages. We get PM's all thet time. By adding to the flood, you could in extreme cases even be the straw that breaks the camel's back - quite a few times, knowlegable members withdrawn their support because collateral damage in the form of useless e-mail & PM traffic to their personal accounts became unbearable.

    The MK3 Supra Reference/Tech-Tips forum often has your answer

    Here's a link to it.

    These are good first places to check, especially if you think you may have tripped over a relatively simple or common problem.

    Also, it's worth mentioning that any question good enough to be asked of one person will also be of value to the whole group. Contrariwise, if you suspect your question is too dumb for public posting, it's not an excuse to harass individual members. However, if you are sure your question is non-trivial, and you get no answer in the the general forum for several days, try the asking a mod or admin to help you find someone who could help. We may just have missed it, or we might be able to point out why you aren't getting an answer. You also would be well advised to lurk there for a few days before posting to learn who people are and how they respond to questions.

    If you cannot figure out if your post is on topic, go ahead and PM that specifict topic areas moderator or an Administrator. Also mention that you don't object to having your message forwarded to other people. (Many people [myself included] believe that private e-mail and PM's should remain private, even if there is nothing secret in it. By allowing your message to be forwarded you give your correspondent a choice about how to handle your message.)

    Use meaningful, specific subject headers

    On forums, the subject header is your golden opportunity to attract qualified experts' attention in 50 characters or less. Don't waste it on babble like "Please help me" (let alone "PLEASE HELP ME!!!!"; messages with subjects like that get discarded by reflex). Don't try to impress us with the depth of your anguish; use the space for a super-concise problem description instead.

    One good convention for subject headers, used by many tech support organizations, is "object - deviation". The "object" part specifies what thing or group of things is having a problem, and the "deviation" part describes the deviation from expected behavior.

    Stupid:
    HELP!!!

    Smart:
    HKS SSQV doesn't blow off

    Smarter:
    HKS SSQV Blow-Off Valve doesn't blow off after hard pipe install

    The process of writing an "object-deviation" description will help you organize your thinking about the problem in more detail. What is affected? Just the BOV or are other problems happening at the same time? Someone who sees a good subject line can immediately understand what it is that you are having a problem with and the problem you are having, at a glance.

    More generally, look at the thread list in a forum. Note that just the subject lines are showing. Make your subject line reflect your question well enough that the next guy browsing the forum with a question similar to yours will be able to follow the thread to an answer rather than posting the question again.

    Do not simply hit reply to a list message in order to start an entirely new thread. If you are going off in a different direction, search for a thread that applies to that subject. If you don't find it then post a new question. Changing the subject is not a good way to do things. Once a thread has a title it does not change even if you change the subject of your individual post. This makes it harder for people to find.

    Make it easy to reply

    Finishing your query with "Please send your reply to myemail@email.com" makes it quite unlikely you will get an answer. If you can't be bothered to take even the few seconds required to come back and check your thread, we can't be bothered to take even a few seconds to think about your problem. On forums, asking for a reply by e-mail is outright rude, unless you believe the information may be sensitive (and somebody will, for some unknown reason, let you but not the whole forum know it). If you want an e-mail copy when somebody replies in the thread use the "subscribe to this thread" option.

    Write in clear, grammatical, correctly-spelled language

    Most of us have found by experience that people who are careless and sloppy writers are usually (there are excptions) careless and sloppy at thinking and working on cars. Answering questions for careless and sloppy thinkers is not rewarding; we'd rather spend our time elsewhere.

    So expressing your question clearly and well is important. If you can't be bothered to do that, we can't be bothered to pay attention. Spend the extra effort to polish your language. It doesn't have to be stiff or formal in fact, the car culture values informal, slangy and humorous language used with precision. But it has to be precise; there has to be some indication that you're thinking and paying attention.

    Spell, punctuate, and capitalize correctly. Don't confuse "its" with "it's", "loose" with "lose", or "they're" with "there". Don't TYPE IN ALL CAPS; this is read as shouting and considered rude. (All lowercase is only slightly less annoying, as it's difficult to read.)

    More generally, if you write like a semi-literate boob you will very likely be ignored. Writing like a l33t script kiddie hax0r or a gangsta from the ghetto is the absolute kiss of death with us and guarantees you will receive nothing but stony silence (or, at best, a heaping helping of scorn and sarcasm) in return.

    If you are asking questions on our forum and English is not your native language, you will get a limited amount of slack for spelling and grammar errors - but no extra slack at all for laziness (and yes, we can usually spot that difference). Write in English. We will flush questions in languages that the bulk of our users don't understand, and English is the working language of the Internet. By writing in English you minimize your chances that your question will be discarded unread.

    Post your question standard format

    If you make your question artificially hard to read, it is more likely to be passed over in favor of one that isn't. So:

    Do not abuse "smiley" and text formatting features. A smiley or two is usually OK, but colored fancy text tends to make people think you are lame. Seriously overusing smileys and color and fonts will make you come off like a giggly teenage girl, which is not generally a good idea unless you are more interested in sex than answers.

    Be precise and informative about your problem

    Describe the symptoms of your problem or project carefully and clearly.

    Describe the car in which it occurs (1990 1JZ Swap). Provide your mod list (Turbonetics T-61, RC 550's, Greddy SP Exhaust, DDP)

    Describe the research you did to try and understand the problem before you asked the question.

    Describe the diagnostic steps you took to try and pin down the problem yourself before you asked the question.

    Describe any possibly relevant recent changes to your car. After 10 posts and queries it's maddening to see "oh yea, I forgot to mention I swapped out the fuel pump the day before".

    Do the best you can to anticipate the questions a people will ask, and answer them in advance in your request for help.

    Volume is not precision

    You need to be precise and informative. This end is not served by simply writing a long winded description of the date you were on, or what had for dinner into your help request. If you have a large, complicated situation, try to trim it and make it as small as possible.

    This is useful for at least three reasons:
    1. Being seen to invest effort in simplifying the question makes it more likely you'll get an answer
    2. Simplifying the question makes it more likely you'll get a useful answer.
    3. In the process of refining your post, you may develop a fix or workaround yourself.

    Remember, 99 times out of 100 there are many other owners that are not experiencing your problem. (If your RC550 injectors aren't working for example) Otherwise you would have learned about it while reading the forum and searching the site (you did do that before complaining, didn't you?). This means that very probably it is you who are doing something wrong.

    Grovelling is not a substitute for doing your homework

    Some people who get that they shouldn't behave rudely or arrogantly and shouldn't be demanding an answer, retreat to the opposite extreme of grovelling. "I know I'm just a pathetic newbie loser, but...". This is distracting and unhelpful. It's especially annoying when it's coupled with vagueness about the actual problem.

    Don't waste your time, or ours, on crude primate politics. Instead, present the background facts and your question as clearly as you can. That is a better way to position yourself than by grovelling.

    Describe the problem's symptoms, not your guesses

    If you don't know what the problem is, it's not altogether useful to tell people what you think is causing your problem. (If your diagnostic theories were such hot stuff, would you be consulting others for help?) So, make sure you're telling them the raw symptoms of what goes wrong, rather than your interpretations and theories. Let them do the interpretation and diagnosis. If you feel it's important to state your guess, clearly label it as such and describe why that answer isn't working for you.

    Since the preceding point seems to be a tough one for many people to grasp, here's a phrase to remind you: "All diagnosticians are from Missouri." That US state's official motto is "Show me" (earned in 1899, when Congressman Willard D. Vandiver said "I come from a country that raises corn and cotton and cockleburs and Democrats, and frothy eloquence neither convinces nor satisfies me. I'm from Missouri. You've got to show me.") In diagnosticians' case, it's not a matter of skepticism, but rather a literal, functional need to see whatever is as close as possible to the same raw evidence that you see, rather than your surmises and summaries. Show me!

    Describe your problem's symptoms in chronological order

    The clues most useful in figuring out something that went wrong often lie in the events immediately prior. So, your description should provide precisely what you did, and what the car did, leading up to the blowup. "I stopped to get gas and then problem x happend" can save us all a lot of work.

    All Supras have diagnostic codes. Check the ECU for them before posting a question. Include any codes you got in your description.

    If your post ends up being long (more than about four paragraphs), it might be useful to succinctly state the problem up top, then follow with the chronological tale. That way, people will know what to watch for in reading your account.

    Describe the goal, not the step

    If you are trying to find out how to do something (as opposed to reporting a problem), begin by describing the goal. Only then describe the particular step towards it that you are blocked on.

    Often, people who need technical help have a high-level goal in mind and get stuck on what they think is one particular path towards the goal. They come for help with the step, but don't realize that the path is wrong. It can take substantial effort to get past this.

    Stupid:
    How do I get enough power to my top fuel dragster sized fuel pump?

    Smart:
    I want to make 350 RWHP, I have 550 injectors. I'm thinking I need one of these huge 400 liter an hour pumps, how do I get power to it?

    The second version of the question is smart. It allows an answer that suggests a tool or part better suited to the task.

    Don't ask people to reply by private e-mail

    Most of us believe solving problems should be a public, transparent process during which a first try at an answer can and should be corrected if someone more knowledgeable notices that it is incomplete or incorrect. Also, helpers get some of their reward for being respondents from being seen to be competent and knowledgeable by their peers.

    When you ask for a private reply, you are disrupting both the process and the reward. Don't do this. It's the respondent's choice whether to reply privately - and if he does, it's usually because he thinks the question is too ill-formed or obvious to be interesting to others.

    Be explicit about your question

    Open-ended questions tend to be perceived as open-ended time sinks. Those people most likely to be able to give you a useful answer are also the busiest people (if only because they take on the most work themselves). People like that are allergic to open-ended time sinks, thus they tend to be allergic to open-ended questions.

    You are more likely to get a useful response if you are explicit about what you want respondents to do (provide pointers, suggest parts, check your install method, whatever). This will focus their effort and implicitly put an upper bound on the time and energy a respondent must allocate to helping you. This is good.

    To understand the world the experts live in, think of expertise as an abundant resource and time to respond as a scarce one. The less of a time commitment you implicitly ask for, the more likely you are to get an answer from someone really good and really busy.

    So it is useful to frame your question to minimize the time commitment required for an expert to field it - but this is often not the same thing as simplifying the question. Thus, for example, "Would you give me a pointer to a good explanation of turbo A/R's?" is usually a smarter question than "Would you explain turbo A/R's, please?".

    Prune pointless queries

    Resist the temptation to close your request for help with semantically-null questions like "Can anyone help me?" or "Is there an answer?" First: if you've written your problem description halfway competently, such tacked-on questions are at best superfluous. Second: because they are superfluous, people find them annoying - and are likely to return logically impeccable but dismissive answers like "Yes, you can be helped" and "No, there is no help for you."

    In general, asking yes-or-no questions is a good thing to avoid unless you want a yes-or-no answer.

    Don't flag your question as "Urgent" or "Need help fast!"

    That's your problem, not ours. Claiming urgency is very likely to be counter-productive: most of us will simply ignore such messages as rude and selfish attempts to elicit immediate and special attention. We also might not answer if we missed the problem in the first few minutes. We'll assume that if you didn't get an answer quickly, it's too late now.

    If you find this mysterious, re-read the rest of this how-to repeatedly until you understand it before posting anything at all.

    Courtesy never hurts, and sometimes helps

    Be courteous. Use "Please" and "Thanks for your attention" or "Thanks for your consideration". Make it clear you appreciate the time people spend helping you for free.

    To be honest, this isn't as important as (and cannot substitute for) being grammatical, clear, precise and descriptive, etc.; We would all in general would rather get somewhat brusque but technically sharp posts than polite vagueness. (If this puzzles you, remember that we value a question by what it teaches all of us.)

    However, if you've got your technical ducks in a row, politeness does increase your chances of getting a useful answer.

    Follow up with a brief note on the solution

    Post after the problem has been solved; let everyone know how it came out and thank everyone again for their help. I can't stress how important this is.

    Your followup doesn't have to be long and involved; a simple "Hey! It was a failed fuel pump! Thanks, everyone. - Bill" would be better than nothing. In fact, a short and sweet summary is better than a long dissertation unless the solution has real technical depth. Say what action solved the problem, but you need not replay the whole troubleshooting sequence.

    For problems with some depth, it is appropriate to post a summary of the troubleshooting history. Describe your final problem statement. Describe what worked as a solution, and indicate avoidable blind alleys and wastes of time after that. The blind alleys and wastes of time should come after the correct solution and other summary material, rather than turning the follow-up into a detective story. Name the names of people who helped you; you'll make friends that way.

    Besides being courteous and informative, this sort of followup will help others searching the forum to know exactly which solution helped you and thus may also help them.

    Last, and not least, this sort of followup helps everybody who assisted feel a satisfying sense of closure about the problem. If you are not a techie or mechanic yourself, trust us that this feeling is very important to the gurus and experts you tapped for help. Problem narratives that trail off into unresolved nothingness are frustrating things; we itch to see them resolved. The goodwill that scratching that itch earns you will be very, very helpful to you next time you need to pose a question.

    Consider how you might be able to prevent others from having the same problem in the future. Ask yourself if a sticky or additon to the FAQ would help, and if the answer is yes, ask a mod or admin to stick or copy to the FAQ.

    We really like to see this, and this sort of good followup behavior is actually more important than conventional politeness. It's how you get a reputation for playing well with others, which can be a very valuable asset.

    RTFM and Search! - or - How To Tell You've Seriously Screwed Up

    There is an ancient and hallowed tradition: if you get a reply that reads "RTFM", the person who sent it thinks you should have Read The Fucking Manual. He or she is almost certainly right. Go read it.

    RTFM has a younger relative. If you get a reply that reads Search!, the person who sent it thinks you should have searched the site. He or she is almost certainly right. Go search it. (The milder version of this is when you are told "Google is your friend!") In fact, someone may even be so kind as to provide a pointer to the previous thread where this problem was solved. But do not rely on this consideration; do your searching before asking.

    Often, the person telling you to do a search has the manual or the web page with the information you need open, and is looking at it as he or she types. These replies mean that he thinks (a) the information you need is easy to find, and (b) you will learn more if you seek out the information than if you have it spoon-fed to you.

    You shouldn't be offended by this; by our standards, your respondent is showing you a rough kind of respect simply by not ignoring you. You should instead be thankful for this grandmotherly kindness.

    Sometimes an answer will be "TSRM EM-53" - this means your question is answered in the TSRM in the Engine Mechanical section on page 53" - if you don't have a TSRM buy one. (There are TSRM's online, but we'd rather see you pay for that copyrighted material to encourage our manufacturer to keep printing the manuals.

    If you don't understand...

    If you don't understand the answer, do not immediately bounce back a demand for clarification. Use the same tools that you used to try and answer your original question (The TSRM, FAQs, the Web, skilled friends) to understand the answer. Then, if you still need to ask for clarification, exhibit what you have learned.

    For example, suppose I tell you: "It sounds like you've got a stuck wastegate; you'll need to free it up" Then: here's a bad followup question: "What's a Wastegate?" Here's a good followup question: "OK, I read the manual and page and I found the wastegate, but the the manual doesn't say anything about freeing it up. Am I missing something here?"

    Dealing with rudeness

    Much of what looks like rudeness in our circles is not intended to give offence. Rather, it's the product of the direct, cut-through-the-bullshit communications style that is natural to people who are more concerned about the tech and solving problems than making others feel good about themselves.

    When you perceive rudeness, try to react calmly. If someone is really acting out, it is very likely an admin like me on the forum will call him or her on it. If that doesn't happen and you lose your temper, it is likely that the person you lose it at was behaving within the community's norms and you will be considered at fault. This will hurt your chances of getting the information or help you want.

    On the other hand, you will occasionally run across rudeness and posturing that is quite gratuitous. The flip-side of the above is that it is acceptable form to slam real offenders quite hard, dissecting their misbehavior with a sharp verbal scalpel. Be very, very sure of your ground before you try this, however. The line between correcting an incivility and starting a pointless flamewar is thin enough that even moderators and administrators themselves not infrequently blunder across it; if you are a newbie or an outsider, your chances of avoiding such a blunder are low. If you're after information rather than entertainment, it's better to keep your fingers off the keyboard than to risk this. We do ban people for using this as a form of entertainment. Please don't do it.

    In the next section, we'll talk about a different issue; the kind of "rudeness" you'll see when you misbehave.

    On not reacting like a complete loser.

    Odds are you'll screw up a few times on the forum - in ways detailed in this article, or similar. And you'll be told exactly how you screwed up, possibly with colourful asides. In public.

    When this happens, the worst thing you can do is whine about the experience, claim to have been verbally assaulted, demand apologies, scream, hold your breath, threaten lawsuits, complain to people's employers, leave the toilet seat up, etc. Instead, here's what you do:

    Get over it. It's normal. In fact, it's healthy and appropriate.

    Community standards do not maintain themselves: They're maintained by people actively applying them, visibly, in public. Don't whine that all criticism should have been conveyed via private e-mail: That's not how it works. Nor is it useful to insist you've been personally insulted when someone comments that one of your claims was wrong, or that his views differ. We don't have time to teach everyone on a one on one basis. If you get slammed in public, everyone learns from it.

    There have been forums where, out of some misguided sense of hyper-courtesy, participants are banned from posting any fault-finding with another's posts, and told "Don't say anything if you're unwilling to help the user." The resulting departure of clueful participants to elsewhere causes them to descend into meaningless babble and become useless as technical forums. That isn't going to happen here. Grow a thicker skin.

    Motivations for calling you on your bad behavior

    Remember: When that someone tells you that you've screwed up, and (no matter how gruffly) tells you not to do it again, he's acting out of concern for (1) you and (2) his community. It would be much easier for him to ignore you and filter you out of his life. If you can't manage to be grateful, at least have a little dignity, don't whine, and don't expect to be treated like a fragile doll just because you're a newcomer with a theatrically hypersensitive soul and delusions of entitlement. We don't have time for it.

    Sometimes people will attack you personally, flame without an apparent reason, etc., even if you don't screw up (or have only screwed up in their imagination). In this case, complaining is the way to really screw up.

    These flamers are either idiots who don't have a clue but believe themselves to be experts, or would-be psychologists testing whether you'll screw up. The other readers either ignore them, or find ways to deal with them on their own. The flamers' behavior creates problems for themselves, which don't have to concern you. Trust us, the administrators and moderations staff will handle these people.

    Don't let yourself be drawn into a flamewar, either. Most flames are best ignored - after you've checked whether they are really flames, not pointers to the ways in which you have screwed up, and not cleverly ciphered answers to your real question (this happens as well).

    Questions Not To Ask

    Here are some classic stupid questions, and what we are thinking when we don't answer them.

    Q: Where can I find the list of ECU error codes?
    A: The same place I'd find it, fool - at the other end of a search. Doesn't everybody know how to use the damned search feature yet?

    Q: Where do I find the wiring diagram for the APEXi S-AFCII?
    A: If you're smart enough to ask this question, you're smart enough to RTFM and find out yourself.

    Q: How can I set my boost controller?
    A: If you're smart enough to ask this question, you're smart enough to RTFM and find out yourself.

    Q: My car doesn't work
    A: This is not a question, and I'm not interested in playing Twenty Questions to pry your actual question out of you - I have better things to do. On seeing something like this, my reaction is normally "Damn, that's too bad, I hope you get it fixed.."

    Good and Bad Questions

    Finally, I'm going to illustrate how to ask questions in a smart way by example; pairs of questions about the same problem, one asked in a stupid way and one in a smart way.

    Stupid: Where can I find out stuff about the HKS SSQV BOV? - (This question just begs for "Search..." as a reply.)
    Smart: I used search to try to find out about the HKS SSQV BOV, but I got no useful hits. Can I get a pointer to install information on this BOV?

    Stupid: I'm having problems with my car. Can anybody help? - (The average response to this is likely to be "Yes, if you'd tell us what is wrong..")
    Smart: I tried X, Y, and Z on on my car. When that didn't work, I tried A, B, and C. Note the curious symptom when I tried C. Obviously the ignition isn't getting power, but the results aren't what one might expect. Anybody got ideas for more tests I can run to pin down the problem?

    This person, on the other hand, seems worthy of an answer. He/she has exhibited problem-solving intelligence rather than passively waiting for an answer to drop from on high.

    In the last question, notice the subtle but important difference between demanding "Give me an answer" and "Please help me figure out what additional diagnostics I can run to achieve enlightenment."

    If You Can't Get An Answer

    If you can't get an answer, please don't take it personally that we don't feel we can help you. Sometimes the members of the asked group may simply not know the answer. No response is not the same as being ignored, though admittedly it's hard to spot the difference from outside.

    In general, simply re-posting or 'bumping' your question more than once every 24 hours is a bad idea. This will be seen as pointlessly annoying. Have patience: the person with your answer may currently be asleep, in a different time-zone, on vacation, etc.

    There are also plenty of commercial companies you can go to for help, both large and small. Don't be dismayed at the idea of having to pay for a bit of help! Mechanics & shops exist for reason.

    Participating: How To Answer Questions in a Helpful Way

    Be gentle. Problem-related stress can make people seem rude or stupid even when they're not. Sometimes they are just freaked out that this car they have dumped thousands of dollars into is now dumping on them!

    If you don't know for sure, say so! A wrong but authoritative-sounding answer is worse than none at all. Don't point anyone down a wrong path simply because it's fun to sound like an expert. Be humble and honest; set a good example for both the querent and your peers. If someone corrects you, accept it with good grace.

    If you can't help, don't hinder. Don't make jokes about procedures that could trash the car - the poor sap might interpret these as instructions. I've seen this happen!

    Ask probing questions to elicit more details. If you're good at this, the querent will learn something - and so might you. Try to turn the bad question into a good one; remember we were all newbies once.

    While just muttering "Search" is sometimes justified when replying to someone who is just a lazy slob, a pointer to documentation (even if it's just a suggestion to search for a specific key phrase) is better.

    If you're going to answer the question at all, give good value. Don't suggest crappy workarounds when somebody is using the wrong tool or approach. Suggest good tools, the right parts - Reframe the question.

    Help your community learn from the question. When you field a good question, ask yourself "How would the relevant documentation or FAQ have to change so that nobody has to answer this again?" Then contact a mod or admin for a sticky or faq additon.

    If you did research to answer the question, demonstrate your skills rather than writing as though you pulled the answer out of your butt. Answering one good question is like feeding a hungry person one meal, but teaching them research skills by example is teaching them to grow food for a lifetime.'

    By the way, if you need to know who the Admins and Mods are, look here

    I hope this helps!

    Revision History
    6/1/06 - original post
    6/2/06 - reworded some things
    6/5/06 - added "how to search section" - Contributed by user isnms
    Last edited by Supracentral; June 5th, 2006 at 05:10 PM. Reason: Moved comments to new thread in general section to keep this thread "clean" - added link to groups.
    >>I will no longer respond to tech questions via PM. If you have a question, put it on the forum so everyone benefits from the answer.<<


    Mike "Nightmare" Donohue

    "Stupidity is permanent and often fatal, Ignorance is curable with education..." -- Me

    Frequently Asked Supra Questions: Rod Knock - HKS WG Springs - Injector Sizing - What is A/R? - Buy a TSRM - HKS HG FAQ - AFPR - Machinist - Overboring - Vac Diags - Motor Oil - Seafoam - Spark Plugs - Air Filters - V6 vs. I6 - Solder vs. Crimp Connectors - How to make power - Stroker Motors - Unreliable 7M's? - Piston Slap - Home made race fuel - Budgeting a build - Tuning and Vf

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    Since the beginning of recorded history, which is defined by the invention of writing by the Sumerians around 6,000 years ago, historians have cataloged over 3700 supernatural beings, of which 2870 can be considered deities. I donít believe in 2,870 gods, and you donít believe in 2,869. You're nearly as much of an Atheist as I am.

    Government is a good thing: Through correct principles, I govern myself.

    Public Notice: Contrary to popular belief, I do not consider everybody who disagrees with me to have brain damage. Those who don't have brain damage will be able to explain and justify their points of view in a logically defensible way. That's the way the Rational Discourse game is played. If you don't want to play the Rational Discourse Game, don't expect anybody (least of all me) to take you seriously.

    Quote Originally Posted by jetjock View Post
    If you drive like that on public streets I won't be disappointed if, as long as you were alone, they one day hose you out of a twisted mass of smoking metal into a bucket and melt what's left of your car down into tuna cans.

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