My Sacrilegious Build

[Chaotic Neutral]

:wavey:

Here's some info about the car: http://www.supramania.com/forums/showthread.php?t=91913

If you don't feel like reading, here's the short and sweet:

Picked up an '87 for basically free. With sport package and targa top. No engine or trans.

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a85/Chaotic762/jack1.jpg

There are pics in the other thread, so I'll keep it to just that one for here.

Have to file for a bonded title, but the record is clean, and the car isn't bad, who can complain? :sarcasm:

It just so happens that I have a few engines lying around, waiting for me to do something with them, as well.

Contestant number one was a 5.0 HO that I got for free. Engine was in good shape, and I figured the 210 horsepower / 270 ft/lbs of torque wouldn't be a bad match up.

Alas, it was short-lived. I had one of two choices: Either the engine clears the cross member with no problems, but sits incredibly far forward, and the engine mounts aren't remotely close. Or choice two, the engine mounts lining up, but the engine sitting about 3 inches too high. :nono: I'd need a bizarre angle to get the transmission to fit the tunnel.

Contestant number two turned out to be the winner. 305 TPI that came from my broken 1986 Trans Am. 190 horsepower, but 285 ft/lbs of torque. :naughty: With a 700R4 transmission.

So, here's that: http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a85/Chaotic762/testfit.jpg

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a85/Chaotic762/enginemounts.jpg

Engine mounts aren't nearly right, but the rest of it fits SO much better.

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a85/Chaotic762/hoodclearance.jpg

The hood clearance actually isn't all that bad, either. Might require a slightly modified hood, but I hope to keep it as stock looking as possible. Poor angle to truly show it, but the intake manifold is only an inch at most above the current hood line.

So, this is the beginning. I know it's not a ground breaking build or anything amazing, but I think it'll end up being a pretty fun car.

Here's a few FAQ for you guys, if anyone cares to follow this, and to clear things up, so you don't need to ask, lol:


1. Why a Chevy engine?
A: It was laying around. Can't beat the price of free.

2. Okay, why not an LS1? LT1? Or at least the 350 TPI?
A: Didn't have one laying around, lol. If anyone wants to donate one, I'll be glad to trade my 305 for it. :biglaugh:

3. Why not a 7mge/7mgte?
A: Already built a full out race car with a GTE, and had 3 Supras with GEs. Tired of 7Ms, quite honestly. They're decent engines, but I just don't want to deal with them anymore. And did I mention this engine was free?

4. Goals? Forced induction? Etc, so forth, and so on?
A: Haven't got a clue at this point. I want to make it as marginally modified as possible, primarily. Leave the exterior alone, minus a set of wheels, leave the interior alone, etc. Basically, the sound of it will be the only give away that it's not the normal engine. Turbo/s would be fun, but I think that's more of a PITA than I want to get into right now. But time will tell.

5. How often can we expect updates?
A: I'm unemployed, so I have no money to buy parts or tools; and fairly lazy, lol. So....once in a while, I suppose. As often as I can, anyway. Feel free to ask questions though, I'll check back here often enough, even if I have no updates. I also have practically ZERO background in this kind of thing, except that I like to tinker a lot, and have taken apart a few cars to the bare chassis....so, there will be a decent learning curve, haha.


That's all for now, will keep you guys posted. :icon_razz

[Poodles]

A local car has the same setup, he has a nitrous setup on it so it's not slower than a stock 7M-GTE...

The TPI intake is very restrictive, hence the high torque figures and the way they geared those cars (IIRC they put 2.73's in them), with the rear end in a supra it's gonna run out of steam quick... A few companies make upgrades for the TPI's intake to overcome this. Think they also make a lower plenum that will bolt up to vortech heads (which are a good bang for the buck besides shaving weight), add a cam and have a pretty decent motor.

[supraman7mgte]

Can't beat free.

[Chaotic Neutral]

A local car has the same setup, he has a nitrous setup on it so it's not slower than a stock 7M-GTE...

The TPI intake is very restrictive, hence the high torque figures and the way they geared those cars (IIRC they put 2.73's in them), with the rear end in a supra it's gonna run out of steam quick... A few companies make upgrades for the TPI's intake to overcome this. Think they also make a lower plenum that will bolt up to vortech heads (which are a good bang for the buck besides shaving weight), add a cam and have a pretty decent motor.


Maybe...

But all that involves extra cost for the engine. I'm not going for a fast car, or much of anything besides a low cost project car. If I end up being able to trade something away for a few upgrade parts, I'll see what I can do.

Whole idea is to just use what I have, or what I can get for free/low cost.

As far as running out of steam.....if it gets me to 60-70mph just fine, that's all I care about. Which I'm pretty sure it will do. I do have an idea for a custom intake, but I need to see if I have the parts laying around to put it together.

[Poodles]

The upper plenum flows quite a bit, the runners are a bit restrictive, and the lower plenum is terrible...

[Isphius]

just a word of advice...the tpi gets boring pretty quick. My formula was the most fun car to drive when i first got it...but running out of breath at 4500 rpms gets old. Go for a 350 with holley stealth ram eventually :) Im sure adding 100 ft lbs of torque will make the car a lot better than an NA 7m though. And i may be parting my tpi formula out soon...if you need anything motor wise...PM me

[Poodles]

Yeah, but the stealth ram sits WAY too tall...

Could always do the firehawk intake manifold (extremely expensive)...

Personally, a set of vortech heads, and the edelbrock lower plenum and runners would be what I would do. Been proven on the dyno by several magazines, but still not cheap :(

Might be able to get it secondhand though.

[Chaotic Neutral]

Yeah, but the stealth ram sits WAY too tall...

Could always do the firehawk intake manifold (extremely expensive)...

Personally, a set of vortech heads, and the edelbrock lower plenum and runners would be what I would do. Been proven on the dyno by several magazines, but still not cheap :(

Might be able to get it secondhand though.




just a word of advice...the tpi gets boring pretty quick. My formula was the most fun car to drive when i first got it...but running out of breath at 4500 rpms gets old. Go for a 350 with holley stealth ram eventually Im sure adding 100 ft lbs of torque will make the car a lot better than an NA 7m though. And i may be parting my tpi formula out soon...if you need anything motor wise...PM me

And as much as I love the suggestions for the upgrades....without a job, my budget for buying parts, is exactly $0.

I don't mind boring. The car currently doesn't move at all, so even a sluggish car is an upgrade, lol. I wish I was in the position for more options, but this is purely a "use what I got" project.

For the sake of asking, would forced induction overcome the flow problems of the engine? I've seen several turbo and twin turbo 305s, and they do quite well...

[Poodles]

Like I said, nitrous LOL

Nitrous is chemical forced induction, nothing more...

[Isphius]

And as much as I love the suggestions for the upgrades....without a job, my budget for buying parts, is exactly $0.

I don't mind boring. The car currently doesn't move at all, so even a sluggish car is an upgrade, lol. I wish I was in the position for more options, but this is purely a "use what I got" project.

For the sake of asking, would forced induction overcome the flow problems of the engine? I've seen several turbo and twin turbo 305s, and they do quite well...

You still have the problem of the 18 inch long runners. They need to be shorter to allow a few more rpms. But You can spend a few hours porting out the stock base plate and port match everything and gain a few hp/rpms too. The other weak point is the factory cam, very tiny. Boost will definatley help though! The tpi system is great for boost with a few small modifications. The ECU is totally open source, unlike the coded ones in toyots and stuff like that. You can hack into them with a laptop or burn your own prom chips.

Edit: the stealth ram isnt a whole lot taller -
http://image.gmhightechperformance.com/f/9434025/0307htp_holleystealth04_z.jpg

[Chaotic Neutral]

You still have the problem of the 18 inch long runners. They need to be shorter to allow a few more rpms. But You can spend a few hours porting out the stock base plate and port match everything and gain a few hp/rpms too. The other weak point is the factory cam, very tiny. Boost will definatley help though! The tpi system is great for boost with a few small modifications. The ECU is totally open source, unlike the coded ones in toyots and stuff like that. You can hack into them with a laptop or burn your own prom chips.

Edit: the stealth ram isnt a whole lot taller -
http://image.gmhightechperformance.com/f/9434025/0307htp_holleystealth04_z.jpg


Awesome, good stuff to keep in mind. Is the ECU flexible enough to handle forced induction? I'm on thirdgen.org also, trying to suck up as much info as I can from there.

But if it is, and it can be reworked with a laptop, that's great to hear. I'm not too bad when it comes to electronics.

I have a grinder, and might have an extra TPI base laying around, might try my hand at porting, see how badly I do, lol.

I would complain about the TPI setup being a nightmare to take apart, but then I look at my friend's WRX and his engine layout....and mine doesn't look so bad.....:nono:

Speaking of engines; took the 305 apart over the last few days, to check the cylinders, block, etc. No signs of cracks, scoring, or pretty much anything else, which is good. Right before I pulled the engine, it had a really bad day of clanging, black smoke, all kinds of craziness. No sign of damage so far, no clue what happened. :dunno:

Got someone who can help me figure out the engine mounts, and someone offered to label out the whole wiring harness for me, also. Not being lazy, he's taking the shell of the Trans Am as payment for something else, and offered to do it when he removed the wiring, lmao.

Looks like I also have an extra 87-88 harness, also. That'll be useful to spice the TPI stuff into, for gauges, etc. Also means I'll have a good 87 harness for sale soon.

Pretty handy having all these car parts laying around. And here my girlfriend said it was a pile of junk....:sarcasm:

[Zach]

Can't beat free.

HA! Just like you can't beat women......



I totally understand being sick of 7m's, but I don't think any motor would ever drive me to the point of putting in a boat-anchor 305 in a supra.

[Chaotic Neutral]

HA! Just like you can't beat women......



I totally understand being sick of 7m's, but I don't think any motor would ever drive me to the point of putting in a boat-anchor 305 in a supra.

Well, without an engine, the entire car is currently a boat anchor. It's not like I'm making it slower, haha.

If I had a 7M laying around, I might have put it in, but I can only work with what I got.

Unless there's anyone out there that wants the 305 and 700R4, and has a working 7m, transmission, and ecu to give me?

Besides...it may be a 305 now, but a 350 bolts up exactly the same.....If I ever trade something for a 350, I won't have to change anything about the engine mounts or much of anything else. Plug and play upgrade, more or less. :icon_razz

[Isphius]

yeah 350 is a very easy swap. I can help diagnose your tpi if you give me some more info. If the engine is fine internally, well there is still 100 other things it could be. The ecu can handle boost but its not going to run like a factory car. you can do it just like a supra, put huge injectors in then instead of an safc/lexus maf you can just turn the fuel tables down in the ecu. If you have maf, that makes it a little easier. As long as it can still read the flow. Im not sure what the limits on the stock maf are. But you could also switch to an ls1 maf. Just do your research and plan it out. btw running rich (black smoke) is 99% of the time a ripped fuel pressure regulator. Pull the vac line off and if its wet, replace it. There 16 bucks at autozone for the plunger kit

[Chaotic Neutral]

yeah 350 is a very easy swap. I can help diagnose your tpi if you give me some more info. If the engine is fine internally, well there is still 100 other things it could be. The ecu can handle boost but its not going to run like a factory car. you can do it just like a supra, put huge injectors in then instead of an safc/lexus maf you can just turn the fuel tables down in the ecu. If you have maf, that makes it a little easier. As long as it can still read the flow. Im not sure what the limits on the stock maf are. But you could also switch to an ls1 maf. Just do your research and plan it out. btw running rich (black smoke) is 99% of the time a ripped fuel pressure regulator. Pull the vac line off and if its wet, replace it. There 16 bucks at autozone for the plunger kit

What would "not going to run like a factory car." entail?

As far as what the engine did....Tried to fire it up one day, huge banging noise, like two pans hitting each other. Huge cloud of black smoke, then the engine died. Tried to turn it back over, but the idle was all over the place, and it died again.

Oddly, went out the next day, the car fired right up, and I drove it into my garage, no smoke, no idle problems, nothing. I dunno. I was resigned to taking the engine apart anyway, so I figured I'd just make sure all the parts are good when I put it together.

As far as updates go: Supra is inside now, so I can thoroughly clean it up, strip it of any further parts I don't need, and set them aside.

Still debating on keeping the grey interior. The dash is cracked beyond all reason, I have no door panels, but the seats are nice and the carpet isn't bad.... Eh, time will tell.

Probably sit down this weekend, and label out the wiring harness from the 88. Unless I'm mistaken on this....the idea would to basically leave the TPI harness intact, and just splice in the Supra's harness for gauges? Anyone let me know if I've got this wrong. And/or, if the gauges won't read from the TPI signals, let me know that too, so I can save myself the trouble.

[CordiaDOHC]

The TPI actually doesnt flow that bad for the 305. The 350 it does choke off. As far as dying off at 4500. A lot of that is related to the small cams in both the LB9 and L98 Engines. An lt1 cam is a small upgrade for the 305. Though I will be very interested if you get the tpi manifold to fit would be great to get a stealthram to fit as that takes care of the SBCs top end in a BIG WAY! Im interested in seeing this swap as I was planning an SBC build but with a t5 style transmission as to stay manual for a bit more fun! :evil2: But definitely interested to see how this swap goes. Ive been trying to think which headers to use and keep thinking block huggers might be the best bet. But if you find a long tube that fits let me know!

[Doward]

If you drop in the complete GM wiring harness, go ahead and re-pin for a GM '7749 ECM from a Syclone/Typhoon, and already be set up to run boost when you want to.

[Chaotic Neutral]

If you drop in the complete GM wiring harness, go ahead and re-pin for a GM '7749 ECM from a Syclone/Typhoon, and already be set up to run boost when you want to.

That sounds very promising....Looks like it's only $100 of Rock Auto, that's not too bad. Apparently it's the same ECM as the Pontiac Grand Am? Interesting.

Also, is it MAP or MAF? I'm currently set up for MAF.

Ultimately, forced induction might be out of the range of this project, but it doesn't hurt to get an idea of what might be involved.

[Chaotic Neutral]

Random update: Got an air compressor via barter today. Nothing fancy or amazing, but should work well enough for most of the things I've been breaking my back trying to do. Might be getting a set of air tools to go with it, just waiting to hear back on that.

One of these. (http://www.ontimesupply.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=1758)

Taking head bolts off an engine, without even a breaker bar, is kind of annoying....so, this should make my life infinitely easier.

Should be getting the transmission back within a few days, so I can bolt it up, and retest fit things.

Need to go through my left over MKIII parts, see if there's anything I can use for this project, besides the harness. Do that tomorrow, I guess.

[Isphius]

This is what you can look forward to. Keep in mind, i didnt punch it all the way till about 3500 in first gear. The car will just spin wheels endlessly if you try to do that. Im sure i could get a much better 0-60 run if i take my time and practice the launch. Maybe ill make one today


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0KDsHWUllGs&feature=channel_page

[CordiaDOHC]

This is what you can look forward to. Keep in mind, i didnt punch it all the way till about 3500 in first gear. The car will just spin wheels endlessly if you try to do that. Im sure i could get a much better 0-60 run if i take my time and practice the launch. Maybe ill make one today


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0KDsHWUllGs&feature=channel_page

judging by the pull Im betting thats a peanut cam TPI 305. (the 190hp model) Not a put down. Ive had 2 3rd gen Fbodies. Actually miss the 89 ttop rs I had. It was the 305 but it was the less TBI 305 (though TBI auto to TPI peanut cam auto is a close race)

[Isphius]

judging by the pull Im betting thats a peanut cam TPI 305. (the 190hp model) Not a put down. Ive had 2 3rd gen Fbodies. Actually miss the 89 ttop rs I had. It was the 305 but it was the less TBI 305 (though TBI auto to TPI peanut cam auto is a close race)

Yes its the smaller cam motor. Not that having the bigger one is much better, lol. The only exciting 305 ive driven was my HO camaro, the monte ss motor, with a few bolt ons. 3.73 gears and a 5 speed may have been why, but it was a fun car. I just wish the TPI caught on like the mustang 5.0 fuel injection had. There is such a small, expensive aftermarket for the TPI its almost not worth it. But its a great stock motor and will make some great power and torque if you are willing to invest in it (geared toward OP not you)

[CordiaDOHC]

Yes its the smaller cam motor. Not that having the bigger one is much better, lol. The only exciting 305 ive driven was my HO camaro, the monte ss motor, with a few bolt ons. 3.73 gears and a 5 speed may have been why, but it was a fun car. I just wish the TPI caught on like the mustang 5.0 fuel injection had. There is such a small, expensive aftermarket for the TPI its almost not worth it. But its a great stock motor and will make some great power and torque if you are willing to invest in it (geared toward OP not you)

few different people made Runners for the TPI. But it was always just easier to replace the whole tpi unit with a stealthram the difference is VERY NICE! And the difference between the small cam 5 spd tpi and the bigger cam tpi 5 spd was the difference between low 15's and mid to high 14's. Not bad for only a cam difference. It was enough so that the 5 spd tpi 305 h.o's ran even with a strong running 350 tpi with 3.23 gearing. So not too bad. But GM probably hurt itself with so many different engine combos and with ford outselling them. All it took to convert an older style manifold to a newer style head was a drill :biglaugh: Though got to admit im interested in watching this swap. My rs camaro (305 tbi) usually got around 24-26mpg on the highway. My Na supra can barely squeeze out 18-19. And the RS was faster all around with only 170hp and an auto over my 5 spd na supra. lol wouldnt mind a bigger engine and a bit more gas mileage :evil2:

[Isphius]

My rs camaro (305 tbi) usually got around 24-26mpg on the highway. My Na supra can barely squeeze out 18-19. And the RS was faster all around with only 170hp and an auto over my 5 spd na supra. lol wouldnt mind a bigger engine and a bit more gas mileage :evil2:

Yes it should be cool to watch. My na supra only ever got 20mpg on the highway too. It was the 4.30 rear that killed it for me. My tpi car usually only gets about 21-22 on the highway though, even with 2.73 gears

[Poodles]

Damn, I knock down 25MPG in mixed driving with my Supra...

Like I said, the TPI swap has been done, and the only reason he was fast is because he had nitrous.

The stealth ram will definately NOT fit under the supra hood (it won't even clear the firebird or T/A hood without some modifying of the bracing). Edelbrock makes the runners (as does SLP), and they also make a better lower plenum and a lower plenum that will boltup to the vortech heads.

Get a 350 block, vortech heads, and stuff the TPI stuff from edelbrock on it and have fun...

[Isphius]

Get a 350 block, vortech heads, and stuff the TPI stuff from edelbrock on it and have fun...

That would be a ton of money and it wouldnt really run all that great. Maybe with siamesed runners. If i ever get an ac/dc tig im going to hack up a set of stock runners and make my own siamesed version. Youd really be better off with a carb to make power. Or an aftermarket efi system, but then, again thats a lot of cash for not a lot of gain. I wouldnt plan on trying to get too much power out of the tpi unless you can pay to play. A 350 with vortec heads, a good intake/carb/cam combo, with headers, would easily make close to 400hp with the stock compression and all. not bad for a ~$1000 investment. The build ive always wanted to do with the TPI is a 383 with the vortecs, ported base and plenum, and a vortec super charger. Just NA a motor like that would make 450 ft lbs or more with a smaller cam. Then add boost!

[Poodles]

EFI will make more power than a carb anytime.

The edelbrock and SLP runners are siamesed last I knew...

[Isphius]

EFI will make more power than a carb anytime.

The edelbrock and SLP runners are siamesed last I knew...

vs Cost, is what i was saying. For any kind of budget build i would never mess with the tpi. everything is a ton of $ and tuning work. And prie/hp you cant beat a carb with vortec heads and a big cam. And yes, slp and e-brock runners are siamesed, but also cost a lot. Slp runners in good shape can sell for 300$ or more. For EFI i would stick to the throttle body and play around with that. Or if i was stuck with a tpi just put a cam in it and leave the rest alone. Cammed 305 TPI with tuning is a mid 14 second car, even with stock 2.73s. Would do nicely in a supra

[CordiaDOHC]

BBK is introducing a new TPI intake manifold. It might be a great answer for this swap as I when I start this swap im staying efi. While putting a v8 in s supra seems fairly wrong. A carbed one just somehow seems worse :biglaugh: . Tuning a TPI computer is pretty simple! lol hell theres tons of people on TGO that would probably do it and I know theres a few local guys here in stl that will do it.

http://www.bbkperformance.com/products/new-products/1985-1991-corvette-85-92-firebird-camaro-gm-tpi-intake-manifold.html

not the best tpi option but not a bad one for which space is at a premium like it is in the supra.

[Isphius]

BBK is introducing a new TPI intake manifold. It might be a great answer for this swap as I when I start this swap im staying efi. While putting a v8 in s supra seems fairly wrong. A carbed one just somehow seems worse :biglaugh: . Tuning a TPI computer is pretty simple! lol hell theres tons of people on TGO that would probably do it and I know theres a few local guys here in stl that will do it.

http://www.bbkperformance.com/products/new-products/1985-1991-corvette-85-92-firebird-camaro-gm-tpi-intake-manifold.html

not the best tpi option but not a bad one for which space is at a premium like it is in the supra.


That is pretty awesome. Ive always wanted to weld up my own in the fasion/design of the top setion of the lt5 intake manifold. With the runners aiming straight down the ports rather than wrapping around and underneath. Plus it would be extremely unique and pretty cool looking i think

[Chaotic Neutral]

Well, plans got changed...what a shock.

Ended up selling my '71 240z project, and the buyer wanted my engine/tranny/etc, as well. Can't argue much with the price he paid.

So, now I'm left with the Supra shell, lmao. I'll figure something out for it....

[Isphius]

I was really wondering what you were going to do for a driveshaft too :confused:

[Chaotic Neutral]

I was really wondering what you were going to do for a driveshaft too :confused:

Custom driveshaft. I have the one from the Supra, and I can pick a Camaro/firebird one up from a salvage yard for cheap. At that point, just drop off both to a driveshaft shop, with a measurement for length, and let them do the rest.

The engine's back in my hands, buyer wasn't able to buy both; so this may still proceed. Got to pay the mortgage though, and I'm short...so....we'll see.

[SupraOfDoom]

But why not a 7M?
http://images.movieplayer.it/2008/12/02/zoolander-98642.jpg