JZ coils and standalone EMS's

[becauseican]

I have been fighting these JZ coils/ ignition on every car that we tune here. No we all know that JZ coils like to crack at the screw area where it mounts to the bracket and under the plug boot, which causes missfire at higher boost. When ever we get to the dyno, and try to run 17-20 psi we get spark blow out/ ignition breakup....so pull the plugs, gap them smaller sometimes down to .022" , and it helps a bit, but still happens. I always go over the coils, and epoxy up any cracks that may be there. We have had these ignition problems with Microtech, Haltech and AEM EMS's, with factory ignitors. We used a HKS DLI and it worked on the AEM, but I feel that it is just masking a problem.

Now the question is what is the problem?, the weak factory coils, or the ignitor?. I really dont want to have to replace the coils on every car we try to run 17+ psi on. What ignition setups do you guys use, new coils, LS coils, AEM pencil coils, or just add a HKS DLI ?. I have heard that the factory ignitors are not so good, so will an aftermarket ignitor do the trick?

Thanks,
Randy

[rakkasan]

I don't know the exact answer, but I'm going to switch to HKS DLI in the near future. I don't want to have an add on ignition system when I can control a completely different system with stand alone.

[10secdream]

The problem lies in that most standalones operate in wastefire. The solution is an hks dli, different coils or a full sequential ignition.

[becauseican]

Well this "spark problem" plagues me with stock ECU cars and Standalone cars, which leads me to belive that its the coils. One one car after it was breaking up at 15 psi, we put another set of coils in and we were able to get up to 17 psi before it was breaking up again, this was with a Microtech LTX12. All the EMS's we were using were running full sequential. We did try to play with the dwel and it helped a bit.

[2jz88mk3]

I did a bit of searching. Most people complain about the coils being 10+ years old and new ones would fix the issue. Some people replace them with LS1 coils becuase of more spark power and the ignitor is built in (cheaper) but supposedly leads to a very cluttered engine bay. The same people recommending LS1 coils (they use them with haltech) said if you have the money new oem coils + HKS DLI would deliver more powerful spark.

... everyone using msd says its hit or miss.

One bit i found said the ls1 was better then stock coils plus HKS DLI but it would seem they were comparing old coils helped by DLI vs new LS1 coils...

hope that helps...

I was wondering lately if anyone has stock ignition issues at 500+ rwhp... i suppose i have my answer ;)

[Turbo Drifter]

Its a simple fix, buck up and get new OEM coils most the time the coils are 15+ years old. The Cracks are part of the problem the other one is that as they age the coils resistance goes out of spec.

AEM running stock coils needs some kind of amp (HKS DLI) as they are batch fire. In batch fire the stock coils do not have enough charge time and leads to a weak spark.

If you want to keep stock coils spend the $400 and get new coils and a then a HKS DLI do not be cheap and look for lame band aid fixes.

You guys have to rememeber things go bad coils being on of them. Look at any MKIV making good power on stock coils and they have new ones. Its one of those costs that go along with the power, same as getting bigger injectors.

I have swapped over to LS1 coils and they fit under the stock coil cover on my 2jz. The reason I went this route is I wanted to lose the ingniter and have a EMS direct to Coil wiring. I also wanted the power of the LS1 coils and I would be able to run a larger gap .030+.

I now have my car running on the ViPEC V88 and LS1 coils, I will find out soon how this works out. I know with the testing the coils I have a much much larger spark with the LS1 coils.

I maybe putting the bracket to fit the LS1 coils into production soon if any one is looking at going that route.

Jeremy

[rakkasan]

I maybe putting the bracket to fit the LS1 coils into production soon if any one is looking at going that route.


I'm interested, let me know what's planned.

[10secdream]

Interested as well. How much do LS1 coils go for these days?

[BLK-SUPRA]

I'm interested, let me know what's planned.

Same here.. im interested in the LS1 brackets, but are the 2JZ coil packs the same as the 1JZ? cant we just use them or do they also tend to crack?

[IJ.]

With the MoTeC I run some extra dwell at high boost to prevent the spark blowout at torque peak, this way I can be gentle on the coils for day to day use and it only drives them hard when needed.

ie: I run 2.3ms @ atmospheric and 5.0ms above 15psi when at 13v.
(rough interpolation between the 2)

Not sure how configurable your ECU's are for dwell and you'd need to find out how hard the Jz coils can be driven but I find this approach cured my issues.

[10secdream]

So with dwell in mind how far can the stock JZ coils be pushed before they overheat? I currently have my dwell set at 3.5ms under all conditions. Would it be safe to bump it up to 3.75 or 4?

[t4boost]

ls1 coils will not work if your using the wasted spark setup though right?

[becauseican]

I hear the LS2 truck coils are smaller in size, anyone confirm this?.

[Turbo Drifter]

I hear the LS2 truck coils are smaller in size, anyone confirm this?.

No they are not, in fact they are a bit larger than the LS1 coils as they have a heat sink built into them. They are also triggered a bit differently.

I have LS1 truck coils in my car and they are about as small as you can get size wise that fits in the 2jz.

The LS1 coils are a huge improvement over the 15 year old 1/2jz coils. You do need to have a standalone to properly utilize them though. With my ViPEC V88 I have the dwell set quite conservatively right now as I have not put any power though it yet. My Dwell is set on a few factors i.e. Voltage (at lower voltage you need more Dwell to charge the coil) and RPM. At around 11.5 volts (usally seen when cranking) I have 7ms and at idle I have about 4ms. As we go with it we will adjust the Dwell to best saute the conditions.

There is lots of info out there on LS coils and its a great resource. From most the testing I have seen the LS1 coils are in the sweet spot around 4.5-5.5 ms at 13 volts. Any more than that you start making more heat and the benefit is marginal.

Jeremy

[IJ.]

So with dwell in mind how far can the stock JZ coils be pushed before they overheat? I currently have my dwell set at 3.5ms under all conditions. Would it be safe to bump it up to 3.75 or 4?

There is usually quite a bit of overhead in the coils but I don't have specific numbers for your coils, keep in mind driving them that hard all the time will reduce their lifespan.

[MK-111]

iirc the factory map sensor only works upto 17psi as well,
so using the factory ignitor its not unreasonable to conclude that it is at the max of its capability at that level, thats assuming the ignitor does all the dwell
timings itself,
I had a pm off one of the megasquirt guys who was using the 2jz coils with
vb921 IGBT coil drivers, and he was using 3.5ms cranking dwell, and 2.5ms
running, and said he had no problems with them overheating, or any issues with missing. but I don`t know what boost levels he was running

[soapra]

I have JZ coils on AEM and HKS Vpro runing over 30 psi on two different cars. AEM car has HKS DLI and the other has the Vpro with stock coils and stock igniter. We do run a heat rage of 9 on the plug. What heat range do you run Randy? BTW coils are 14 to 15 years old.

[becauseican]

I normally run BKR7E's but I am getting tierd of swapping them out every few weeks. I think I am going to try the LS coils on my car, now I just gotta find some.

[soapra]

Randy,

The BKR7E plugs are to hot, also the plug is a non resistor plug. Try the NGK iridium in the 8 or 9 heat range before you do change the coils. also iridium plugs are resistor plugs. The BKR7E plugs can cause interference with our ECU's especially at higher boost levels, I've seen weird things happen, like the PC that runs the dyno shut down because of electromagnetic interference.

[bfr1992t]

AEM running stock coils needs some kind of amp (HKS DLI) as they are batch fire. In batch fire the stock coils do not have enough charge time and leads to a weak spark.

If you want to keep stock coils spend the $400 and get new coils and a then a HKS DLI do not be cheap and look for lame band aid fixes.


Funny, I consider having to add an ignition amp a lame band aid fix to the shortsighted design of the AEM EMS. Better to mod the AEM EMS for sequential.

I do agree that the OP's plugs are the wrong choice, however 7 is COLDER than 6 and BKR's do have resistors. BCPR6ES works great for me and many others. Do not switch to a colder plug until you have evidence that you actually need to.

http://www.ngksparkplugs.com/techinfo/spark_plugs/partnumberkey.pdf

[10secdream]

I normally run BKR7E's but I am getting tierd of swapping them out every few weeks. I think I am going to try the LS coils on my car, now I just gotta find some.

Why do you have to swap out the plugs every few weeks? Do they get carbon fouled at all? I have found that BKR7E's are a little too cold for where I live so I have been running the stock heat range and it has been working out awesome. Do mind you this was on the stock twins running 15psi and full bolt ons.

[soapra]

Funny, I consider having to add an ignition amp a lame band aid fix to the shortsighted design of the AEM EMS. Better to mod the AEM EMS for sequential.

I do agree that the OP's plugs are the wrong choice, however 7 is COLDER than 6 and BKR's do have resistors. BCPR6ES works great for me and many others. Do not switch to a colder plug until you have evidence that you actually need to.

http://www.ngksparkplugs.com/techinfo/spark_plugs/partnumberkey.pdf

Meassure the resistance on a resistor iridium plug and the BKR7E's? Let me know what you find, as I have run in to this issue with some EMS's. It's a hit or miss problem but it has happen to me and my tuner a lot that we have keept a close eye on the BKR7E's. Stock heat range is 6 going two colder or three wont hurt a thing. With HKS DLI and NGK Iridium with a heat range of 9 I have picked up to 60 WHP.

My tuner runs an AEM Race EMS and he has tried out every spark plug out in the market, His car holds 3 world records in IDRC. So his race car is always on the dyno trying to squeeze out every ounce of power that engine can make with all kinds of plugs, oils, rings, coatings, bearing clearances, Etc...

[IJ.]

NGK Platinum 7's here used daily in all conditions and haven't been changed or cleaned in 10,000+ Km's and still pull cleanly to redline using the variable dwell I described earlier in this thread.

[bfr1992t]

Meassure the resistance on a resistor iridium plug and the BKR7E's? Let me know what you find, as I have run in to this issue with some EMS's. It's a hit or miss problem but it has happen to me and my tuner a lot that we have keept a close eye on the BKR7E's. Stock heat range is 6 going two colder or three wont hurt a thing. With HKS DLI and NGK Iridium with a heat range of 9 I have picked up to 60 WHP.

My tuner runs an AEM Race EMS and he has tried out every spark plug out in the market, His car holds 3 world records in IDRC. So his race car is always on the dyno trying to squeeze out every ounce of power that engine can make with all kinds of plugs, oils, rings, coatings, bearing clearances, Etc...

B = 18mm
K = 5/8 hex, projected tip
R = Resistor
7 = heat range
E = thread reach of 19mm

I'm not saying it has the same resistance as another model of plug, but it does have a resistor. It likely won't have the exact same resistance of an iridium plug, but should be close to the BCPR variant.

Two or three heat ranges colder will hurt when you have to deal with widely varying environmental conditions and daily street/highway driving.

[becauseican]

With the MoTeC I run some extra dwell at high boost to prevent the spark blowout at torque peak, this way I can be gentle on the coils for day to day use and it only drives them hard when needed.

ie: I run 2.3ms @ atmospheric and 5.0ms above 15psi when at 13v.
(rough interpolation between the 2)

Not sure how configurable your ECU's are for dwell and you'd need to find out how hard the Jz coils can be driven but I find this approach cured my issues.

My Haltech doesnt have dwell maps, just a single adjustable value.

I found some Toyota 1ZZ-FE coils here at the shop, they are COP, have built in ignitors, and are nice and small and fit inside the 1jz plug galley nicely. I was doing some reasearch, and the MR2 guys are using these as upgrades with good results. I am not needing some crazy voltage spark, just enough to run 25-28 psi boost. I just gotta get some wire clips and pigtails and wire it up. I think I may try this route. Anyone used these before or have any opinions on them?.

Randy

[IJ.]

Randy: So you can't assign a table to dwell?

[becauseican]

Randy: So you can't assign a table to dwell?

No with the Haltech E11v2 you cannot assign a table for dwell, I am not sure about with the new Platinum Sport 2000 ECU that I am installing, but we will see.

Anyways, I will be trying out the 1zzfe / 2zzfe coils on my 1jz, and I am doing a 2jz in the shop with LS1 Truck coils, with a custom made mounting bracket. I will most likely be offering the bracket for sale on my website as a new product....BOLT ON LS1 COILS mounting system!!, they should be available in 3-4 weeks.

Randy

[88supraTT]

will the tuck coils fit the 1jz with your mount bracket or just the 2jz? I've been looking at different options for the ignition set-up and that is one of the ones that I'm leaning towards.

[jt2ma71]

NGK plat 7's here also. 2JZ coils with MoTeC CDI8. Dwell is set to 1ms. Although I have no known issues, I'd like to try a table like yours, IJ.

Ron

[IJ.]

Here ya go Ron, start off conservative then bump the settings a little and keep an eye on coil temp.

There "should" be specs on the maximum dwell the 2J coils can take somewhere, these settings are what works on the Bosch MEC720 coils I used.

http://ij.supramania.com/dwell.jpg

[jt2ma71]

Here ya go Ron, start off conservative then bump the settings a little and keep an eye on coil temp.

There "should" be specs on the maximum dwell the 2J coils can take somewhere, these settings are what works on the Bosch MEC720 coils I used.

http://ij.supramania.com/dwell.jpg

Thanks, I think when I called MoTeC about the 2j coils, they said ~2ms.
So the lesser the number the less time for the coils to recover, right?

~Ron

Edit: according to MoTeC, when using CDI, there's no need for this, Dwell should be set to 1msec. That's why mine is set to 1.

[bfr1992t]

1ZZFE coil info on Motec's forums - connectors and dwell info. Found while googling for a picture of them.

http://www.motec.com.au/forum/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=374

Have we tried fitting them on the 7M head at all?

[IJ.]

Ron: DOH sorry didn't even "see" the CDI-8......

[becauseican]

We got the LS1 2jz mounting bracket all done, its a tight fit, but will work well. A friend of mine id running LS1 coils on his 2jz with a Vi-pec ems.

[Turbo Drifter]

This is my custom setup to mount LS coils.

http://www.supramania.com/forums/showthread.php?t=95077

Jeremy

[upgradedsupra]

Its a simple fix, buck up and get new OEM coils most the time the coils are 15+ years old. The Cracks are part of the problem the other one is that as they age the coils resistance goes out of spec.

If you want to keep stock coils spend the $400 and get new coils and a then a HKS DLI do not be cheap and look for lame band aid fixes.

Look at any MKIV making good power on stock coils and they have new ones. Its one of those costs that go along with the power, same as getting bigger injectors.

Jeremy

This.

I run 32psi and on stock MKIV coils (new) and no problems. :)

Nice set-up there Jeremy, looks clean.

[Turbo Drifter]

This.

I run 32psi and on stock MKIV coils (new) and no problems. :)

Nice set-up there Jeremy, looks clean.

Yes you also have M&W bling and sequential fire ignition.

I believe most of my problems were with the AEM batch fire and the stock "Smart" igniter.

With the ViPec I now have sequential ignition too.

Ether its the coils or the management the car runs 10X better than it has in the past.

[upgradedsupra]

Yes you also have M&W bling and sequential fire ignition.

I believe most of my problems were with the AEM batch fire and the stock "Smart" igniter.

With the ViPec I now have sequential ignition too.

Ether its the coils or the management the car runs 10X better than it has in the past.

Yes, I have good parts and sequential is a plus. You just need to it right the first time, many many MKIV Supras run the same coils and have much higher hp than me too.

It is finally good to see your car actually run now.

Duane

[gravesdu_99]

does anybody know that cheapest past to buy coil packs. I thought I saw them at champion for $55, but now I can't find them anymore.

[becauseican]

I have finally got the 1zz coil plugs, I hope to mave it installed and wired up within the next week or two. I will post my results once its up and running.

[bfr1992t]

What motor are you putting the 1zz coils on? Aljordan and I gathered measurements from a number of different 1/2 zz coils and most will end up occupying the same space as the hood (stock) on a 7M.

[Turbo Drifter]

What motor are you putting the 1zz coils on? Aljordan and I gathered measurements from a number of different 1/2 zz coils and most will end up occupying the same space as the hood (stock) on a 7M.

Its going on a 1jz, but that should not make much difference. There no more than 1" longer than 2jz coils and I have seen those on 7M's with lots of room to spare.

[aljordan]

ZZ coils would stick up to the tops of the cam covers, if not higher. I don't know if there is room to fit the throttle linkage with these.

[Turbo Drifter]

ZZ coils would stick up to the tops of the cam covers, if not higher. I don't know if there is room to fit the throttle linkage with these.

Sorry forgot about that goofy TB and 3000pipe set up.

[becauseican]

I am putting the 1zz coild on my 1jz. I just finnished a LS1 coil setup on a 2jz swap, it turned out really nice. I will post some pics.

[bfr1992t]

What year/model of car are you getting the 1zz coils from? Any chance you could see if one that you have fits on a 7M?

[becauseican]

Alright, i have an update finally. The 1ZZ coils are installed and I have been running them for a few months now, and they work great!!. I now run a .030 plug gap and have boosted up to 25 psi and experienced zero spark blow out!!!, which wasnt possible with the stock coils unless running a .022 gap or smaller. I am totally pleased with the coils, the fitment and performance is great, I can finally turn the boost up without worrying about blow out. The center coil cover does need to be spaced up about 3/16", which is barely noticable and offers better airflow and cooling for the coils. I will attach some pics.

The coils are from the newer 1zz and 2zz engines, Corolas, MR2 Spyder and Celica GTS's. I will see how they fit on a 7M.

Randy

[aljordan]

This is a 2zz coil on my #1 plug. It's about an inch taller than the oil cap.

http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g249/alanjordan/Supra/2zzCoil.jpg

[rakkasan]

Alright, i have an update finally. The 1ZZ coils are installed and I have been running them for a few months now, and they work great!!. I now run a .030 plug gap and have boosted up to 25 psi and experienced zero spark blow out!!!, which wasnt possible with the stock coils unless running a .022 gap or smaller. I am totally pleased with the coils, the fitment and performance is great, I can finally turn the boost up without worrying about blow out. The center coil cover does need to be spaced up about 3/16", which is barely noticable and offers better airflow and cooling for the coils. I will attach some pics.

The coils are from the newer 1zz and 2zz engines, Corolas, MR2 Spyder and Celica GTS's. I will see how they fit on a 7M.

Randy


Awesome Randy! what dwell are you running?

[slideways2004]

Alright, i have an update finally. The 1ZZ coils are installed and I have been running them for a few months now, and they work great!!. I now run a .030 plug gap and have boosted up to 25 psi and experienced zero spark blow out!!!, which wasnt possible with the stock coils unless running a .022 gap or smaller. I am totally pleased with the coils, the fitment and performance is great, I can finally turn the boost up without worrying about blow out. The center coil cover does need to be spaced up about 3/16", which is barely noticable and offers better airflow and cooling for the coils. I will attach some pics.

The coils are from the newer 1zz and 2zz engines, Corolas, MR2 Spyder and Celica GTS's. I will see how they fit on a 7M.

Randy

what ignitor are you using?? Are you going to be selling those brackets for the coils??

[honestabe]

Looks really nice Randy. Thanks for the future idea :)

[IJ.]

I am putting the 1zz coild on my 1jz. I just finnished a LS1 coil setup on a 2jz swap, it turned out really nice. I will post some pics.
The Later model coils are even hotter again Randy, I'll have some data this week after a visit to MoTeC to have some tested.

[Turbo Drifter]

what ignitor are you using?? Are you going to be selling those brackets for the coils??

The coils have an internal igniter.

[becauseican]

what ignitor are you using?? Are you going to be selling those brackets for the coils??

Like Turbo Drifter said, they have built in ignitors, which is why they are so great. I have heard it direct from some standalone ECU companies that the stock JZ ignitors are "junk", and they dont reccomend to use them. They only work well with a booster like MSD or HKS DLI.

Yes I may offer these brackets for sale, although there is more to it than just the brackets, I will see if I can get some brand new coild and offer it as a package. PM me if interested.

[honestabe]

I might be interested. I want to see the results though.

[bfr1992t]

Like Turbo Drifter said, they have built in ignitors, which is why they are so great. I have heard it direct from some standalone ECU companies that the stock JZ ignitors are "junk", and they dont reccomend to use them. They only work well with a booster like MSD or HKS DLI.


That is mainly because most standalone ECU's do not have enough coil drivers and must run them in wastespark, doubling the duty and reducing charge dwell and cycle by half.

All of the latest ECU's that do have 6+ coil drivers are doing well including AEM EMS v2, ProEFI, and Motec.

[Zazzn]

Randy I found a easy fix.

Forget about epoxy and all that crap I found shrink warp that fit perfectly, and i haven't had a problem since on all 18 of my cracked coils on my 3 2jz cars.
In fact the mk3 made 4 PSI more boost form better ignition when I fixed the coils.


Had to turn down the boost control to compensate!

The cracks that affect the coils I found where mostly the ones going down the down the coil to where the boot is... I took a whole piece of shrink warp down the shaft of the coil and haven't had ONE problem since.

BTW using A DLI helps crack the coils by over driving them.. I had 3 sets crack because of the DLI. but fixed as per above.

[honestabe]

Zazzn, are you saying that it's safe to run a DLI so long as the coil pack stems have been wrapped with heat shrink? BTW, I run 2 layers of 1" heat shrink on my coil pack stems.

[bfr1992t]

You're adding insulation is all - more resistance for the charge to overcome to jump to nearby ground.

[honestabe]

Yes I know, I'm fully aware.

[becauseican]

I might be interested. I want to see the results though.

What more results are you looking for?, I run 25 psi with a .030 plug gap and I have been on one set of plugs for the whole summer so far. Try that with the stock ignition. Id say they work great. Also just ran a 12.16 @118 at the track on friday, it is great to not have spark blow out at high boost anymore.

[honestabe]

That's all the results I need.

[bfr1992t]

What more results are you looking for?, I run 25 psi with a .030 plug gap and I have been on one set of plugs for the whole summer so far. Try that with the stock ignition. Id say they work great. Also just ran a 12.16 @118 at the track on friday, it is great to not have spark blow out at high boost anymore.

.032, 18-25psi, same plugs for almost 2 yrs now. 7M-GTE stock ignition ;-)

[Turbo Drifter]

.032, 18-25psi, same plugs for almost 2 yrs now. 7M-GTE stock ignition ;-)

Sorry am I missing the relevance here?

I too have had no problems with my plugs running a .032 gap and LS coils. The spark blow out problems i had was with the MSD wires (POS) the stock NGK's work fine at over 20psi and 500+whp.

[gravesdu_99]

it seems like nobody on here is running stinger standalone, which I believe is wasted spark. Can somebody confirm that the LS coils will work with stinger.

Also Randy I have been looking but I can't find if you are offering the package deal yet

[big yoggz]

I have been fighting these JZ coils/ ignition on every car that we tune here. No we all know that JZ coils like to crack at the screw area where it mounts to the bracket and under the plug boot, which causes missfire at higher boost. When ever we get to the dyno, and try to run 17-20 psi we get spark blow out/ ignition breakup....so pull the plugs, gap them smaller sometimes down to .022" , and it helps a bit, but still happens. I always go over the coils, and epoxy up any cracks that may be there. We have had these ignition problems with Microtech, Haltech and AEM EMS's, with factory ignitors. We used a HKS DLI and it worked on the AEM, but I feel that it is just masking a problem.

Now the question is what is the problem?, the weak factory coils, or the ignitor?. I really dont want to have to replace the coils on every car we try to run 17+ psi on. What ignition setups do you guys use, new coils, LS coils, AEM pencil coils, or just add a HKS DLI ?. I have heard that the factory ignitors are not so good, so will an aftermarket ignitor do the trick?

Thanks,
Randy

I ended up going to fry's electronics and ended up getting some shrink wrap and worked out great

[Viggs]

I just got back from a disappointing turnout at the dyno with the stock ignition. It wouldn't take more than 19psi with a T67. So are these 1zz/2zz coils the ticket for a better spark with a stinger? Or am I better off with new 2j coils and DLI? Whats the verdict?

[honestabe]

Yes the 1zz coils are the much better route than the stock JZ coils with a DLI.

[IJ.]

Yes the 1zz coils are the much better route than the stock JZ coils with a DLI.

Interesting statement is there any hard data to back up that claim?

[OneJSupra]

Interesting statement is there any hard data to back up that claim?

+1 inquiring minds wanna know.

[honestabe]

http://www.aa1car.com/library/copign.htm

[IJ.]

No I mean hard Data from actual testing ie: Charge times, Voltage/Energy out, Current in.

"Better" needs to be defined.

[honestabe]

Not that I've found yet Ian.

[IJ.]

Be careful making blanket statements then Adam as Viggs almost bought a set of Coils based on what you posted.....

[honestabe]

Be careful making blanket statements then Adam as Viggs almost bought a set of Coils based on what you posted.....

I was trying to be careful Ian. I don't want to see any member get screwed. I wouldn't recommend the 1zzfe coils if it weren't for the fact that I have seen proven results (from Randy at BIC) and am going to get the system myself. Hell, I've already sold my JZ coils and ignitor and lopped off the stock ignitor wiring the best I could and I already have my 1zzfe coils and connectors in hand. I am just waiting on funds/confirmation of price so I can complete the install of my setup.

From what I've read in this very thread, I see zero downside to getting rid of the JZ coil/ignitor system and going to the 1zzfe coil on plug system. Hell, the cost for the system (with the mounts, wiring subharness, and the coils and connectors themselves) is about the same, if not less, than the HKI DLI. Less crap, better system, same cost, I only see good things with this setup.

[IJ.]

You CAN'T say "better system" without DATA to prove it's actually better.... :nono:

Ignition is one of those things that can be quantified through testing and until I see some hard data on both systems I have NFI which is "better".

Anecdotal evidence based on someone's end results doesn't cut it as there are too many variables that can play a part.

I'm not busting on you but you really need to word things differently and not state it as absolute.

[upgradedsupra]

JZ coils are on cars up to 1000 plus hp, WTF would you change it? If it ain't broken, don't fix it" No need to reinvent the wheel here. :3d_frown:

Get a decent ignition and you will be fine, geez/thread.

Duane

[Viggs]

It's better than stock I would have to say though from Randy's results. It's just a matter of DLI vs 1zz. The DLI is manipulating the OEM coils to get a better spark while the 1zz coils are all on there own. IIRC the the stock igniter is "smart" while the igniters in the 1zz coils are "dumb." So by eliminating the stock igniter your able to adjust dwell with a standalone, correct? Follow me through on this next thought I had....In a wasted spark configuration with DLI, isn't the output of the DLI actually cut in half due to two coils drawing off it at the same time?

[IJ.]

It's better than stock I would have to say though from Randy's results. It's just a matter of DLI vs 1zz. The DLI is manipulating the OEM coils to get a better spark while the 1zz coils are all on there own. IIRC the the stock igniter is "smart" while the igniters in the 1zz coils are "dumb." So by eliminating the stock igniter your able to adjust dwell with a standalone, correct? Follow me through on this next thought I had....In a wasted spark configuration with DLI, isn't the output of the DLI actually cut in half due to two coils drawing off it at the same time?

No as the dead/waste cylinder has minimal pressure so the energy going to that plug is very low.
Where the 1ZZ coils WILL win hands down is even in Waste Fire configuration they're NOT sharing coil output as they each have an Ignitor.

[Viggs]

No as the dead/waste cylinder has minimal pressure so the energy going to that plug is very low.
Where the 1ZZ coils WILL win hands down is even in Waste Fire configuration they're NOT sharing coil output as they each have an Ignitor.


Very good point! Can DLI be added to the 1zz coils?

[becauseican]

I have a few sets of the mounting brackets made now and will offer it with a sub-harness to splice into the stock ignitor harness. These coils are best run as sequential but should work fine as waste spark, but I have not tried this yet. The biggest benefit of these coils is that they do away with the stock ignitor which is the systems weak link, even with brand new stock JZ coils.

Pm or email me if anyone else is interested in picking one of these kits up.

[honestabe]

I've ordered my 1zzfe kit from Randy, should be getting and installing it soon.

[bfr1992t]

I think you guys have the theory right but the application wrong. Wasted spark works when you have one coil firing two plugs/cylinders due to several factors. A) There are two paths (plugs) for energy from the coil to follow to ground B) Energy will follow the path of least resistance C) the plug in the cylinder on the compression stroke is in a lower resistance medium (fresh air/fuel mixture) D) the plug in the cylinder on the exhaust stroke is in a high resistance medium (exhaust) E) the coil is sized accordingly.

In this application you are using individual coils (one per cylinder/plug) such that, per coil, there is one path for the energy to follow (the only plug attached to the coil). By running them in wasted spark you have effectively cut the cycle in half and doubled the duty cycle.

[IJ.]

I think you guys have the theory right but the application wrong. Wasted spark works when you have one coil firing two plugs/cylinders due to several factors. A) There are two paths (plugs) for energy from the coil to follow to ground B) Energy will follow the path of least resistance C) the plug in the cylinder on the compression stroke is in a lower resistance medium (fresh air/fuel mixture) D) the plug in the cylinder on the exhaust stroke is in a high resistance medium (exhaust) E) the coil is sized accordingly.

In this application you are using individual coils (one per cylinder/plug) such that, per coil, there is one path for the energy to follow (the only plug attached to the coil). By running them in wasted spark you have effectively cut the cycle in half and doubled the duty cycle.

No as the dead/waste cylinder has minimal pressure so the energy going to that plug is very low.
Where the 1ZZ coils WILL win hands down is even in Waste Fire configuration they're NOT sharing coil output as they each have an Ignitor.

How so?

[Viggs]

Running a COP system in wasted spark just makes the Coil think it's running twice the RPM, since it has to fire twice per revolution instead one. Whatever effect it has on individual coil output is debatable. If using a COP with a built in igniter it's no big deal, with the stock igniter it's more of a strain as it wasn't meant to operate at 14,000rpm with two coils feeding off it. So to correct what bfr1992t said, by running them in wasted spark your effectively doubling the cycle. IJ would you agree with that?

[bfr1992t]

How so?

In a true wasted spark configuration the coil is designed to be charged and dumped once per revolution.

A coil for a 4 cycle engine, coil on plug configuration, is designed to be charged and dumped once per cycle (two revolutions), integrated igniter or not. This coil has one path to ground (one plug) so once the primary coil power is removed the secondary will dump through the plug irregardless of compression or exhaust stroke. If it's used in a pseudo wastespark configuration (fired once per revolution) it will be driven at 2 times what it was designed for.

[IJ.]

Ok I may be a little Dim but I'm not seeing the "issue" you're getting at?

Way back I ran a single T style coil into a GE Distributor and it pulled cleanly to 7000 rpm without any hint of a problem, (at low boost) are you trying to say a waste fire CoP system doesn't have enough charge time to cope?

I'm not being an ass just trying to understand.

[figgie]

In a true wasted spark configuration the coil is designed to be charged and dumped once per revolution.

A coil for a 4 cycle engine, coil on plug configuration, is designed to be charged and dumped once per cycle (two revolutions), integrated igniter or not. This coil has one path to ground (one plug) so once the primary coil power is removed the secondary will dump through the plug irregardless of compression or exhaust stroke. If it's used in a pseudo wastespark configuration (fired once per revolution) it will be driven at 2 times what it was designed for.

and there really is no issue. As long as the dwell time is small enough to be completed in the rpm range, there is no downside. If the dwell time is greater than the time needed per revolution, weak charge will cause a misfire.

or in otherwords, IJ is correct.