Front brake cooling duct in place of the Fog Light

[Van]

I've been serching online for a kit for our cars, and the closest in size is one made for a BMW E30/36; http://www.caauto.reflex-hosting.net/show_big-cGF0aD1lbmxhcmdlbWVudHMmcGljPTEyNjU0M19sZ1sxXS5wanBlZw==.html . Not ideal fit though.
Is there a MKIII kit I can purchase from a vendor on this forum or, point me to someone who has a MKIII brake duct kit, outside of this forum?
Thanks, Van

[Frankenstien]

Pretty sure you posted in the wrong section. And no, I don't know of any brake duct kit. I was under the impression the MKIII had brake ducts on the underside of the car behind the fog lamps. Mine did, until I had a custom intercooler/hardpipe setup installed.

[Van]

Hi,

I looked behind the fog lights on my car, and it is interesting though that the fog light sits in a metal bracket, which looks like a duct. I'll apply a three inch flex tubing to it, to see if that will seal around the gaps.

I race this baby of mine on PIR road course near my home, and plan to push the brakes harder next season, than I did last. The pads are Porterfield R4, and I was nearing the limits of the brakes w/the stock set-up, into turn 7 of 12. With improved cooling, I should see more speed around the course.

Thanks for the heads up for which forum this might need to be moved to (General). Van

[nerfkhat]

mkiii supra had brake ducts on the jza70 but you need the jza lip. The little holes in the lip had the ducts going into the front brakes. You can buy the oem jza lip from hpf but i never looked for the ducts though.

[Van]

The following is what I'm looking to do w/my fog lights...http://www.turbosupras.com/images/Group%20A/Group%20A%20Exterior%201.jpg Van

[Frankenstien]

Go for it, I'd post it up in the MKIII general discussion though. I think you'll end up having to make your own though.

[Slow66]

Heres a site with various ducts that you may have already seen...

http://www.pitstopusa.com/SearchResult.aspx?CategoryID=547

I think no matter what you do, it will have to be custom. As has been mentioned, the jza70 had a lip with ducts, but the chances of findign the whole setup may be dismal. Maybe check rinkya.com if interested in going that route. You could probably make something better that that with custom stuff though, and trimming out the foglight holes a bit.

Make sure you take pics and do a little write up, i dont think many on here have done any brake ducting (or at least havent shown it)...

[Poodles]

The parts are still available new from toyota for the jza70 lip with ducts...

Best setup would have flexible pipes fed by ducts in the fog lights that are mounted to a modified rotor dust shield (they already have scoops to get air into them, but it's not very direct. I THINK the intake of the vents in the rotor are on the back, so it will help a bit, though the stock brakes are still going to be seriously lacking I think...

Pics and part numbers in this thread: http://www.supramania.com/forums/showthread.php?t=73132&highlight=jza70+brake+ducts

[Van]

Thanks for all the info.
I ordered ducting and tubing from Pit Stop USA, and it will be here in a week. I'll take pics of the new set up.
I've been looking at several different set ups and some use a rotor cap and others aim the duct at the hub. I'm planning to have a local speed shop, one that sets my car up for the track, to make the install for me, so it will work effectively. Van

[Poodles]

I've always thought of putting smaller projector style fog lights in with a duct behind them so I have the best of both worlds, but I'll probably end up going with the jza70 lip...

[supraguru05]

im putting ducts on this winter. the key is to get the air to the center of the rotor so it can be pumped through the rotor. also a birdie told me hawk is getting ready to release pads for our cars which is awesome. also if you dont mind the expense carbotech currently makes pads for our cars. the R4s might be a little out of their heat range for road racing

[prsrcokr]

To really improve cooling you need to force cool air to go through the rotors vents, something like this would help:
http://www.turnermotorsport.com/html/detail.asp?PRODUCT_ID=RE1547
But something that directs to the inside of the rotor would be best.

I'm using stock calipers and haven't yet removed the dust shields (have to cut or remove the spindle to get to the bolts) with good pads on track it's plenty of braking power and they don't fade for me (learning proper braking is an ongoing process) and will easily lock up my tires. I do however think ducting to the rotor area would still be an improvement.
Let us know how it goes, I'd like to do something similar soon.
Brian

[honestabe]

For brake cooling I'd start will drilled/slotted rotors. They will help to remove heat and gases from the rotors as well and providing better grip since the slots cut the pads and clean them in the process. I'm running Brembo OEM size drilled/slotted rotors and love them.

[IJ.]

For brake cooling I'd start will drilled/slotted rotors. They will help to remove heat and gases from the rotors as well and providing better grip since the slots cut the pads and clean them in the process. I'm running Brembo OEM size drilled/slotted rotors and love them.
Ummm not really ;)

[honestabe]

Hmmm. I could have swore that the slots did that. I could easily be mistaken though. I do know for sure that the holes and slots do help with cooling and removal of gases.

[IJ.]

Gases yes cutting no ;)

Think about it the slots are angled, for them to "cut" the pad the pad would need to deform into the slot enough that the edge could take a slice.

Being angled means at any one time you have 99% supported on the face of the disc.

It would also mean slotted rotors would EAT pads and this just isn't so.

[honestabe]

Oh yeah, duh! lol

[IJ.]

A common enough Myth Adam ;)

[Van]

Thanks for the info.
I have already purchased generic ducting http://www.pitstopusa.com/SearchResult.aspx?CategoryID=1262 and will have them adapted to the dust covers, in the near future.
There is a HPDE sched for the 14th of March I've signed-up/paid for to give me incentive to get this done. Last year I found that by turn 7 on the PIR road course, I had brake fade. I'm running stock rotors and Porterfield's R4S. I tend to trail brake rather late...
Besides the spindle ducting, this year I'm also upgrading to Porterfield's R4-1, and having the calipers treated with heat dispersant ceramic coatings.
I'll let you all know how these improvements help me increase my speed around the track.
p.s. I did just recall it has been three years since I changed the brake fluid, so that's on the list for this month. Van

To really improve cooling you need to force cool air to go through the rotors vents, something like this would help:
http://www.turnermotorsport.com/html/detail.asp?PRODUCT_ID=RE1547
But something that directs to the inside of the rotor would be best.

I'm using stock calipers and haven't yet removed the dust shields (have to cut or remove the spindle to get to the bolts) with good pads on track it's plenty of braking power and they don't fade for me (learning proper braking is an ongoing process) and will easily lock up my tires. I do however think ducting to the rotor area would still be an improvement.
Let us know how it goes, I'd like to do something similar soon.
Brian

[Sawbladz]

If you're planning on running HPDE's you should be running at least a DOT 4 fluid and changing it before every event. That 3 year interval isn't going to cut it. ;) The more race suited fluids can withstand the higher temps but they also attract moisture and need to be replaced more often.

I'm planning on doing a bunch more auto-X this season as well as an HPDE. I told myself I would not go on the track until I was confident my brakes could complete the whole day. I have decided to go with Dowards BBK as my solution. I may add in some ducting in the future to help some more.

[supraguru05]

Im about 2 weeks out from making my ducts.

pscorkr i was ok with turbo blue fluid and ebc pads on street tires, the pads were marginal and had to be changed after every weekend of racing. the last event of the year i ran 275 RA1s and immediately over heated the brakes. when i came home the pedal felt weird, no amount of bleeding fixed it. after the car sat for a week the front caliper seal final showed that it was blown and my garage filled with brake fluid, so i highly recommend getting ducts on as soon as possible.

[prsrcokr]

Which EBC pads guru? I haven't tried the EBC's but didn't trust they billed one as a quiet street and race pad with some insane temp range (I don't think there is such a thing)

I'm using the Raybestos ST-41 in front and some Porterfield rears (R41) with Valvoline Synpower (old blend, silver bottle) fluid. Also still have the dust shields in place. Haven't faded these pads yet (235/255 street tires) but they are true race pads. I have to be on the brakes longer to drop speeds on these tires but I've had instructors running them on 350z's with 275 V710's that can also lock them up easily. Overkill for my tires but it's what I needed for heat. I had fried the dust seal on the older calipers and replaced them but no damage to the inner seal yet. Someone needs to offer a hi-temp silicone seal for the calipers, maybe that would help?

I still think the stock brakes pretty capable but I'm not on R's yet and probably don't have the same power you do.
Brian

[supraguru05]

Which EBC pads guru? I haven't tried the EBC's but didn't trust they billed one as a quiet street and race pad with some insane temp range (I don't think there is such a thing)

I'm using the Raybestos ST-41 in front and some Porterfield rears (R41) with Valvoline Synpower (old blend, silver bottle) fluid. Also still have the dust shields in place. Haven't faded these pads yet (235/255 street tires) but they are true race pads. I have to be on the brakes longer to drop speeds on these tires but I've had instructors running them on 350z's with 275 V710's that can also lock them up easily. Overkill for my tires but it's what I needed for heat. I had fried the dust seal on the older calipers and replaced them but no damage to the inner seal yet. Someone needs to offer a hi-temp silicone seal for the calipers, maybe that would help?

I still think the stock brakes pretty capable but I'm not on R's yet and probably don't have the same power you do.
Brian



i forget which ones i had the reds i think, im switching to carbotechs this year. it depends heavily on what tracks you run. putnam and midohio both have hard braking sections which use the brakes heavily. i might try those st41s if you really think they are handleing the heat ok.

tried to find somewhere that sold those raebestos st41 pads and i cant find anywhere, the only place i found said they were 210 dollars for a set where do you get yours and or what is the part number

[tekdeus]

Duct our not, the stock brakes just won't cut it. Plus, a spinning rotor is essentially it's own fan, and pulls a whack of fresh air in through the center and throws it out the edges. Not sure if a duct would make much of a difference.

[prsrcokr]

That's a matter of opinion I guess, the stock pads don't cut it on track but the stock brake system is fine. I'm able to catch faster cars in brake zones on stock calipers and rotors, some case with less tire. You also can't beat on brakes on the street for the same effect as the track. Long straights help cool the brakes, you're rarely ever stopping from 100+ to zero (unless something's happened), race pads don't erode at 8-900 deg. like street pads. Any good pad can lock up most tires, you need one that can take the heat you're seeing.

Guru, try calling Porterfield direct or Geoff Mohler at Speedtoys. There's a NASA member discount. Geoff gets these cut for the mk3 in any Raybestos formula. I did 3 events on the current set and still have one left. Didn't bed them properly so I'd expect the next set to last longer.

Brian

[supraguru05]

Duct our not, the stock brakes just won't cut it. Plus, a spinning rotor is essentially it's own fan, and pulls a whack of fresh air in through the center and throws it out the edges. Not sure if a duct would make much of a difference.

the stock brakes are fine, i am able to outbrake most cars on the track with upgraded pads, and brake ducts make a MASSIVE difference. would you rather your turbo such in air that is static or suck in are that is flowing. im cutting really good times at putnam and mid ohio on stock brakes. the 6 race weekends ive done, and 5 years of autocross are proof that the stock brakes are more than capable if used fully, im looking at running 6 nasa weekends this year alone

thanks for the information pscorkr ill give them a call. looks like the best spot to put the ducts is right where the factory inlet is in the dust cover, im going to weld in a steel duct onto the shield that directs the air toward the center and call it done.

also if you want to switch pads the carbotechs are around 100 dollars a set and they have a ton of compounds, im going to make my decision between carbotech or the raebestos pads this week

[supraguru05]

update: cost of the pads is 180-200 he has to double check although he said they should last all season. currently i am replacing a set of 70 dollar pads every weekend and with 6 weekends this year they pay for themselves. kinda sucks how much they cost but i dont have a choice. im going to run regular ceramics in the rear. also looking into ducts for the rear with possible naca ducts in the rear quarter windows

[Van]

So, Saturday I went out to the pre-season Tech Inspection for SCCA and due to the numerous non-stock upgrades on my Supra, I'm classified into ITE, a catch all group (run what you bring). I was told by two techs there I'll run with the likes of last seasons, regional points winner, a supercharged S2000 making 400WHP at 2100+Lbs, or an EVO IX at more than 400WHP w/carbon fibre body panels at 2500+Lbs, then Big muscle ZO6s and 911 turbos, etc, etc, etc. :nuts:
None-the-less, I'm still going through w/the plans to place cooling ducts on the brakes, and try to be competitive. Van

[toy fanatic78]

So, Saturday I went out to the pre-season Tech Inspection for SCCA and due to the numerous non-stock upgrades on my Supra, I'm classified into ITE, a catch all group (run what you bring). I was told by two techs there I'll run with the likes of last seasons, regional points winner, a supercharged S2000 making 400WHP at 2100+Lbs, or an EVO IX at more than 400WHP w/carbon fibre body panels at 2500+Lbs, then Big muscle ZO6s and 911 turbos, etc, etc, etc. :nuts:
None-the-less, I'm still going through w/the plans to place cooling ducts on the brakes, and try to be competitive. Van
That sucks they put you in that class,good luck.

[IJ.]

This is one of the things that slows me down putting mine on the track is where I'll end up class wise due to the mods....

Think I might limit it to club sprints and a few hill climbs and be content as it's NOT a race car.

[Clip]

would switching from porterfield r4s to r4 pads make a difference? i'm running r4s pads on my car, chosen because i'd read the r4 pads had a slightly different heat range for track duty.

[Van]

Yes, they were helpful, but I found them lacking for how I brake and I tend to trail brake, so I'm moving to R4-1, which are closer to how hot my calipers get (I used heat sensing paint to aid in my decision). I'll try those along with the ducting. Van

would switching from porterfield r4s to r4 pads make a difference? i'm running r4s pads on my car, chosen because i'd read the r4 pads had a slightly different heat range for track duty.

[Supra469]

Anyone successfullly got any ducts setup and working yet?

[Van]

No, I ran into a problem. One caused from not planning this cars set-up, but rather doing it piece meal. The cold air intake mod I have in place, coupled with how I routed the inter-cooler pipes, is getting in the way of fitting the NACA ducts, so I now need to reroute the inter-cooler pipes. It'll be another two weeks before I can get time to spend on the car and get those brake ducts finished.
Oh, by the way; the calipers on my Supra are Mitsubishi! Go figure... Van

Anyone successfullly got any ducts setup and working yet?

[supraguru05]

Anyone successfullly got any ducts setup and working yet?

im really close to starting on them, between tests and the interior work im doing im still a little out

I need to read up on ITE sounds like a class I could run my car in that might be comparable to a nasa class

[MK3.0dudeman]

I have been dying to make some custom ones.I'm going to make cones out of bondo(or if anyone has a better idea)to fit the contor of the fog light openings.I will bolt them in but to clean things up nicely I want to take sheet metal to go over the cone to smooth things out and than have it flared out and than rivit it to the bumper and at the other end have hoses go to the brakes.This may not seem good looking to some from reading this but if you saw what in my head you would love it.Hopefully I will have this done one day.I will do it tho.


So dose anybody have any idea on were the duct should face the brakes and were should I connet the duct?

[supraguru05]

I have been dying to make some custom ones.I'm going to make cones out of bondo(or if anyone has a better idea)to fit the contor of the fog light openings.I will bolt them in but to clean things up nicely I want to take sheet metal to go over the cone to smooth things out and than have it flared out and than rivit it to the bumper and at the other end have hoses go to the brakes.This may not seem good looking to some from reading this but if you saw what in my head you would love it.Hopefully I will have this done one day.I will do it tho.


So dose anybody have any idea on were the duct should face the brakes and were should I connet the duct?

look here for cheap premade inlets

http://www.hrpworld.com/index.cfm?tpc=Brake_System_Temperature_Control&form_cat_id=167,49,363&action=category

http://www.pegasusautoracing.com/advcat.asp?CategoryID=BRAKEDUCT


and the duct should aim toward the center of the rotor so it can be pumped thru the rotor by the veins.

[Sawbladz]

So, Saturday I went out to the pre-season Tech Inspection for SCCA and due to the numerous non-stock upgrades on my Supra, I'm classified into ITE, a catch all group (run what you bring). I was told by two techs there I'll run with the likes of last seasons, regional points winner, a supercharged S2000 making 400WHP at 2100+Lbs, or an EVO IX at more than 400WHP w/carbon fibre body panels at 2500+Lbs, then Big muscle ZO6s and 911 turbos, etc, etc, etc. :nuts:
None-the-less, I'm still going through w/the plans to place cooling ducts on the brakes, and try to be competitive. Van

I have the same problem. Either I pull off my boost controller and run against modded Evo's and WRX's, or I run with the Z06's and Porsche's. It sucks because I am more than a little competitive and I hate being put at such a disadvantage.

[prsrcokr]

Here's an update with the ducts I added to my car. I removed the foglights and brackets to leave open holes. Tried a couple pre-made ducts but none would quite fit even with cutting. The holes in the 87-88 bumper are roughly 5.5x2.75 so 3" hose won't fit and most available ducts have an opening for 3" hose. Other problem as Van mentioned is the IC pipe being in the way on the PS side if you still have a crossover IC piping route. I decided to make a duct from sheet metal and offset the inlet to the outside of the foglight opening so I could squeeze the hose past the IC pipe.

Parts I used; 2.5 Al. flanges (from aircraft shop), 2.5" 500 deg. duct hose (race/aircraft shop), light gauge sheet metal, factory foglight bolts
I bent the sheet metal to create boxes to fit around the foglight openings. Then added the flanges to the middle portion of the box face. Not a true chamfered duct shape that necks down to collect air, more like an HVAC duct shape. I didn't have much time to make these between events, maybe I can improve them to collect better in the future.

Pics:

http://inlinethumb24.webshots.com/46423/2615730650098358625S425x425Q85.jpg (http://rides.webshots.com/photo/2615730650098358625HvvNqs)
Showing location of opening in duct on PS, IC pipe can be seen through opening

http://inlinethumb38.webshots.com/43045/2577810860098358625S425x425Q85.jpg (http://rides.webshots.com/photo/2577810860098358625rEvxQP)
Duct on DS

http://inlinethumb63.webshots.com/43454/2317933530098358625S425x425Q85.jpg (http://rides.webshots.com/photo/2317933530098358625VMqjOk)
Al. flange placed into hole cut in factory dust shield vent location. It's not the ideal spot which would be the center of the spindle to pull air from the center out but this is the best location I found. May be able to use the area near the ABS sensor but I wanted to avoid the sensor and only have one opening so all air is directed through it. I cut the edges and bent them down to better match the dust shield and avoid contact with rotor.

http://inlinethumb27.webshots.com/44762/2658345330098358625S425x425Q85.jpg (http://rides.webshots.com/photo/2658345330098358625NItDjV)
Back side of dust shield with flange sticking through. A 3" flange & hose may be able to squeeze in but the 2.5" I'm using gets slightly pinched by the endlink when front suspension is compressed.

http://inlinethumb16.webshots.com/44879/2191661650098358625S425x425Q85.jpg (http://rides.webshots.com/photo/2191661650098358625mNGidQ)
Rear of duct shown with attached 2.5" hose (yes I need a new bumper, sponsors? :) )

http://inlinethumb05.webshots.com/41988/2905631090098358625S425x425Q85.jpg (http://rides.webshots.com/photo/2905631090098358625NNknLD)
Routing of hose to inlet on dust shield. Added duct tape to hose where slack is hanging from frame to minimize tearing. Need to make sure full movement is accounted for with slack in hose. Secured to flanges with 2.5" screw clamps.

Impressions:
http://inlinethumb09.webshots.com/44104/2585428180098358625S425x425Q85.jpg (http://rides.webshots.com/photo/2585428180098358625juqTVw)
See ya shelby! ;)
I put 15 sessions (25-30 min.) on the front pads but only half were with the ducts and the other half were 95 deg. days. I was much faster the last 2 events being on RA-1s so it's hard to say how much this helped. I did get some odd wear last weekend (45-60 deg.) which cause me to bend the top end of the inside pad backing plate on each side of the car. I'm wondering if it was concentrating too much air to one end of the pad being so cool out. Maybe blocking off the ducts in cool weather is a good idea with this compound, I'll ask the vendor. Overall, no fade on the stock brake system, fluid did not look as dirty after sessions as it did prior to the ducts. I've had instructors ride with me that say I've got great brakes, these guys were driving 240's and FD Rx7's.

Brian

Thanks,
Brian

[supraguru05]

my front brake ducts are 3 inch and i was still having 400F + degree caliper temps with front rotor temps at a more reasonable 900-1000F. im going to look at possibly switching to 4 inch or dual 3 inch feeds with one onto the caliper to reduce temperatures this winter

[prsrcokr]

Are you running sensors or getting someone to take measurements as you come off a hot lap? I checked with my temp gun this weekend after a cool down lap and laps around paddock and the calipers were still in the 350 range (this was w/ 55 deg. ambient temps)
Rotors had dropped to ~450 by that point but the cast calipers will take longer to drop heat once they've gotten to temp.

[supraguru05]

taken by hawk coming off of a full hot lap into the hot pits. couldnt be more than 20 seconds between pulling off and the temps. the rear rotors were only 420 but the fronts were 900 so add a couple hundred and thats generally the maximum. once i finish my data aq system ill have all sorts of sensors

[LordDigital]

taken by hawk coming off of a full hot lap into the hot pits. couldnt be more than 20 seconds between pulling off and the temps. the rear rotors were only 420 but the fronts were 900 so add a couple hundred and thats generally the maximum. once i finish my data aq system ill have all sorts of sensors

Sounds to me that a brake bias valve or a little more aggressive rear compound could be quite beneficial for you ;)

[RedComet13]

Now would an Upgrade like this be a reasonable add-on For a vehicle meant for street and Highway performance or too much?

[LordDigital]

Now would an Upgrade like this be a reasonable add-on For a vehicle meant for street and Highway performance or too much?

IMO wisely chosen brake compound and a good working stock system should be plenty good for the street/Highway use...

[RedComet13]

Definently, But the Modification with the duct on the Dust Cover. Would That Seem Overkill For a Street/Highway Performance Vehicle?

[honestabe]

I only see it as necessary if you're doing repeated hard braking, such as auto-xing and road racing. Or if you have a decent enough amount of power as to warrant it, say 400+ RWHP. Don't forget about your brake fluid. I run ATE Superblue in my system (as well as my clutch system). I would only recommend using DOT 4 brake fluid, and change it every year.

[supraguru05]

I only see it as necessary if you're doing repeated hard braking, such as auto-xing and road racing. Or if you have a decent enough amount of power as to warrant it, say 400+ RWHP. Don't forget about your brake fluid. I run ATE Superblue in my system (as well as my clutch system). I would only recommend using DOT 4 brake fluid, and change it every year.

you should also bleed your fluid if you ever experience any fade as you probably have boiled some fluid and contaminated it. we flush the whole system if I experience any fade.

as far as a more aggressive rear compound gos compound has no effect on the rotor temperatures. bias does. I have yet to install a proportioning valve but plan on it this winter.

also no need for brake ducts on a street vehicle. brake ducting (the hose) is sacrificial and will at some point get torn and cut etc especially with as little room as our cars have for running it. so its just more of a pain than it is worth for something that is going to be using high steering angles to park etc